Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[Equilibrium]

You are going to love this LmL. As I said I am currently working something and touching the subject of medieval Arthurian legends. Now Fisher King has been mentioned but this is pure gold. I literally jumped from what I was working to share this.

In a story called Merlin Continuation there is an episode with guy called Balain, who is a bad knight, not exactly depicted as a black knight (burning weapons guys) but he is that sort of the guy. So he ends up on the court of Fisher King who is God's appointed ruler and keeper of the grail, he there kills a knight who killed his companions in a phantom form (this alone is great foreshadowing of Stannis-Brienne arc) FK is pissed and chases him through castle until Balain comes across the chapel, ignores warnings of disembodied voice find a spear and rams it in the FKs thighs wounding him greatly, which starts an apocalypse.

Spear turns out to be spear that killed Jesus and God is angry because Balain used sacred weapon to strike sacred king. Back to ASOIAF, LB is can be piece of the comet, not Dawn, other piece only remnant of the comet that destroyed moon as I said repeatedly and thereby weapon that have killed a god and/or it can be product of impact and part of the goddess and as so sacred, and then BSE uses it to strike AE who is god appointed empress and Blood Betrayal brought apocalypse

But there is one more outlook, thigh is frequently used in medieval literature to mean private parts, and severely wounded FK can mean impotent FK, but in our case that can be taken to mean rape of AE by BSE, and she could have remained barren after it or after giving birth to the son as a result of the rape. She can of course be both raped and killed by sacred weapon.

Kingdom of Listinois in which FK ruled suffered something akin to the nuclear apocalypse, totally comparable to what had happened to Asshai, crops destroyed, people killed, grim presence akin to radiation lingered and no one could enter in the castle because of it, destruction was so thorough kingdom was hence known was as Kingdom of Waste Land or the Kingdom of Strange Land.

[Ser Leftwich]

Shouldn't this topic be closed for # of posts and a second edition started.

[LmL]

You are going to love this LmL. As I said I am currently working something and touching the subject of medieval Arthurian legends. Now Fisher King has been mentioned but this is pure gold. I literally jumped from what I was working to share this.

In a story called Merlin Continuation there is an episode with guy called Balain, who is a bad knight, not exactly depicted as a black knight (burning weapons guys) but he is that sort of the guy. So he ends up on the court of Fisher King who is God's appointed ruler and keeper of the grail, he there kills a knight who killed his companions in a phantom form (this alone is great foreshadowing of Stannis-Brienne arc) FK is pissed and chases him through castle until Balain comes across the chapel, ignores warnings of disembodied voice find a spear and rams it in the FKs thighs wounding him greatly, which starts an apocalypse.

Spear turns out to be spear that killed Jesus and God is angry because Balain used sacred weapon to strike sacred king. Back to ASOIAF, LB is can be piece of the comet, not Dawn, other piece only remnant of the comet that destroyed moon as I said repeatedly and thereby weapon that have killed a god and/or it can be product of impact and part of the goddess and as so sacred, and then BSE uses it to strike AE who is god appointed empress and Blood Betrayal brought apocalypse

But there is one more outlook, thigh is frequently used in medieval literature to mean private parts, and severely wounded FK can mean impotent FK, but in our case that can be taken to mean rape of AE by BSE, and she could have remained barren after it or after giving birth to the son as a result of the rape. She can of course be both raped and killed by sacred weapon.

Kingdom of Listinois in which FK ruled suffered something akin to the nuclear apocalypse, totally comparable to what had happened to Asshai, crops destroyed, people killed, grim presence akin to radiation lingered and no one could enter in the castle because of it, destruction was so thorough kingdom was hence known was as Kingdom of Waste Land or the Kingdom of Strange Land.

There a some Fisher King / Bloodraven parallels, iirc from our discussion of the FK last month, including the thigh wound. I have found a lot of parallels between the Nissa Nisa moon / archetypal role and Jesus, so equating the spear that killed Christ to the comet is apt. Combined with the idea that bloodstone is stone which Christ's blood dripped on, just as the moon rock meteors that were a result of the union of sun and fire moon and are infused with the blackened blood of the fire moon (hence the greasy black appearance of George's fantasy "bloodstone"), and we see a lot of Christ parallels.

On a side note, if Jesus' body has exploded into dragon meteors, that would have been cool. The maybe HBO would do a series based on... oh never mind, that's probably not a good idea. I kid, everyone.

The bloodstone meteors which rained down on the planet, the black stone which Azor Ahai / the BSE worshipped - they are the result of the union of sun / comet and moon. I guess to call those piece of rock "Nissa's corpse" is a bit misleading. Those rocks have been "fertilized" by the comet sperm, and George firms this idea up by saying that they drank the fire of the sun. Those black meters are the offspring of the union. So when AA made LB and included some of the black bloodstone, he WAS infusing it with the essence of both parents, if you want to think about it that way.

Dawn, however, is made from pure comet meteor, which split off BEFORE the explosion, during whatever constitutes the water forging (there's still some debate about this). Dawn is associated with blue, pale light, water, ice, etc.

[LmL]

Shouldn't this topic be closed for # of posts and a second edition started.

Yes, probably, but I have no idea how that works. Personally, I was hoping to se it hit 666 comments. :devil:

I should have the next essay out very soon, it's taking shape, so no need to continue this thread.

[Equilibrium]

There a some Fisher King / Bloodraven parallels, iirc from our discussion of the FK last month, including the thigh wound. I have found a lot of parallels between the Nissa Nisa moon / archetypal role and Jesus, so equating the spear that killed Christ to the comet is apt. Combined with the idea that bloodstone is stone which Christ's blood dripped on, just as the moon rock meteors that were a result of the union of sun and fire moon and are infused with the blackened blood of the fire moon (hence the greasy black appearance of George's fantasy "bloodstone"), and we see a lot of Christ parallels.

On a side note, if Jesus' body has exploded into dragon meteors, that would have been cool. The maybe HBO would do a series based on... oh never mind, that's probably not a good idea. I kid, everyone.

The bloodstone meteors which rained down on the planet, the black stone which Azor Ahai / the BSE worshipped - they are the result of the union of sun / comet and moon. I guess to call those piece of rock "Nissa's corpse" is a bit misleading. Those rocks have been "fertilized" by the comet sperm, and George firms this idea up by saying that they drank the fire of the sun. Those black meters are the offspring of the union. So when AA made LB and included some of the black bloodstone, he WAS infusing it with the essence of both parents, if you want to think about it that way.

Dawn, however, is made from pure comet meteor, which split off BEFORE the explosion, during whatever constitutes the water forging (there's still some debate about this). Dawn is associated with blue, pale light, water, ice, etc.

I read that but Fisher King - Amethyst Empress parallels are so much better, maybe even Fisher Queens are nod in that direction, Fisher King doesn't have to be male, just as Daenerys can assume the role of Galahad later on, gender equality and abolishment of gender roles from the narrative, in connection to you hypothesis about ancient matriarchy in Westeros.

In any case meteor can be view in two different ways and hold two symbolisms, both as offspring and as weapon sanctified by killing the god.

Apocalypse brought forth by killing of the righteous ruler by sacred and divine weapon is slam dunk proof that binds what we know form TWOIAF and basic points of your theory.

[LmL]

I read that but Fisher King - Amethyst Empress parallels are so much better, maybe even Fisher Queens are nod in that direction, Fisher King doesn't have to be male, just as Daenerys can assume the role of Galahad later on, gender equality and abolishment of gender roles from the narrative, in connection to you hypothesis about ancient matriarchy in Westeros.

In any case meteor can be view in two different ways and hold two symbolisms, both as offspring and as weapon sanctified by killing the god.

Apocalypse brought forth by killing of the righteous ruler by sacred and divine weapon is slam dunk proof that binds what we know form TWOIAF and basic points of your theory.

Well it's not a matter of better, you know, we're just following the influences Martin may have used... so many myths overlap with one another that's its not always easy to tell, for example, which 'moon goddess that was stolen to the underworld and caused all the crops to die' story we are talking about, because there are so many. There also a lot of "the sun goes dark / the earth is covered in clouds or darkness" stories, and many of them seem to have been in Martin's mind. Azhi Dahaka is a particularly good one.

BUT, I agree that the Fisher King legend does seem full of parallels and certainly one of the things Martin drew from. It seems clear to me he never takes anything wholesale, and all of his resulting legends incorporate more than one influence overlaid upon one another. I think the Fisher King story has its own parallels with the story of Christ and a couple other Bible stories, for that matter. We know that Martin used the FK idea because of the Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea story, and Huzhor Amai being the son of the last Fisher Queen. The idea of the grail as a person also seems relevant.

So check this out - since you have just read the Arthurian stuff, re-read the Sarnori / Grasslands section of TWOAIF and see what jumps out to you, and see if you can puzzle pout anything about the relationship of the Silver Sea Fisher Queen kingdoms (a Dawn Age golden empire, to be sure) and Huzhor Amai to the GEotD and Azor Ahai. There is a connection there, Mithras and I have been beating around that bush a bit but I have only just scraped the surface of the Fisher King lore. Oh and yes of course you are right that male / female does not matter, Martin is switching those around all over the place.

[LordImp]

When is the next astronomy thread coming out LML?

[LmL]

Working on it good buddy. Maybe in the next few days. I have most of it together, but I'm still finding more examples of two moons and stuff that are pretty juicy.

[J. Stargaryen]

Regarding the stuff about Rhaegar as a black knight, I would consider the real life parallel with Edward of Woodstock, who came to be known as the Black Prince, posthumously. Not only that, but the Black Prince's Ruby is one of the crown jewels of England, and currently sits front and center on the Imperial State Crown. Further, he was a crown prince who deceased his father, like Rhaegar. And it could be argued that his death played an important role in the dynastic struggle that came to be famously known as the Wars of the Roses, upon which GRRM based part of ASoIaF. The Lancasters and Yorks trace their claims to the Black Prince's younger brothers, iirc.

Knowing all of that, I have a hard time believing that GRRM's emphasis on Rhaegar's black armor and his rubies is any kind of a coincidence.

[Equilibrium]

Well it's not a matter of better, you know, we're just following the influences Martin may have used... so many myths overlap with one another that's its not always easy to tell, for example, which 'moon goddess that was stolen to the underworld and caused all the crops to die' story we are talking about, because there are so many. There also a lot of "the sun goes dark / the earth is covered in clouds or darkness" stories, and many of them seem to have been in Martin's mind. Azhi Dahaka is a particularly good one.

BUT, I agree that the Fisher King legend does seem full of parallels and certainly one of the things Martin drew from. It seems clear to me he never takes anything wholesale, and all of his resulting legends incorporate more than one influence overlaid upon one another. I think the Fisher King story has its own parallels with the story of Christ and a couple other Bible stories, for that matter. We know that Martin used the FK idea because of the Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea story, and Huzhor Amai being the son of the last Fisher Queen. The idea of the grail as a person also seems relevant.

So check this out - since you have just read the Arthurian stuff, re-read the Sarnori / Grasslands section of TWOAIF and see what jumps out to you, and see if you can puzzle pout anything about the relationship of the Silver Sea Fisher Queen kingdoms (a Dawn Age golden empire, to be sure) and Huzhor Amai to the GEotD and Azor Ahai. There is a connection there, Mithras and I have been beating around that bush a bit but I have only just scraped the surface of the Fisher King lore. Oh and yes of course you are right that male / female does not matter, Martin is switching those around all over the place.

I really can't think of the another instance of guy brings nuclear-like apocalypse by killing of the righteous ruler by sacred and divine weapon in mythology, maybe you can help me, it's not quite archetype you portrait it to be. It is a well known story, it is referenced in depth in the one of the most influential books about chivalry which incidentally brought to science many views and themes which Martin explored in his series, namely different ways in which chivalry was used in complex relationship with unbridled knightly violence and feudal anarchy and all things that led to. So check and check?

I will immediately, so I will check in later hopefully with something.

[Equilibrium]

Regarding the stuff about Rhaegar as a black knight, I would consider the real life parallel with Edward of Woodstock, who came to be known as the Black Prince, posthumously. Not only that, but the Black Prince's Ruby is one of the crown jewels of England, and currently sits front and center on the Imperial State Crown. Further, he was a crown prince who deceased his father, like Rhaegar. And it could be argued that his death played an important role in the dynastic struggle that came to be famously known as the Wars of the Roses, upon which GRRM based part of ASoIaF. The Lancasters and Yorks trace their claims to the Black Prince's younger brothers, iirc.

Knowing all of that, I have a hard time believing that GRRM's emphasis on Rhaegar's black armor and his rubies is any kind of a coincidence.

Rhaegar is most famous black knight in Westeros who is great knight and obviously fantasy Black Prince, another hailed bastion of chivalry.

Yeah I kinda already mentioned that :D

Nice of you to write the whole story, I kinda thought everybody knows about Black Prince, professional deformation.

But there is a twist, even thought Black Prince is considered bastion of chivalry, he did some very very controversial stuff (or you can call them straight up bad stuff) like sacking of Limoges or his whole chevauchée across the southern France

[J. Stargaryen]

Yeah I kinda already mentioned that :D

Nice of you to write the whole story, I kinda thought everybody knows about Black Prince, professional deformation.

But there is a twist, even thought Black Prince is considered bastion of chivalry, he did some very very controversial stuff (or you can call them straight up bad stuff) like sacking of Limoges or his whole chevauchée across the southern France

Sorry, I missed that somehow. :dunce: And yeah, agreed on the Black Prince being a mix of good and bad. Perhaps he should have been called the Grey Prince. :P

[Equilibrium]

Sorry, I missed that somehow. :dunce: And yeah, agreed on the Black Prince being a mix of good and bad. Perhaps he should have been called the Grey Prince. :P

I'm sure he would be if he wore a gray armor :D

[LordImp]

Working on it good buddy. Maybe in the next few days. I have most of it together, but I'm still finding more examples of two moons and stuff that are pretty juicy.

Looking forward to it.

[Equilibrium]

On Grasslands.

Silver Sea does evoke Avalon from Arthurian legends, with female rulers (sisters of Morgan le Fey on Avalon) peaceful oasis secluded from the world. Silver Sea shrinking and dividing in three pieces is nod to comet splitting. Decline of lake is related to disappearance of Fisher Queens. Huzhor Amai as a son supplanting last FQ and transforming peaceful oasis into expansionist empire is another nod to change from matriarchy to patriarchy, maybe it was a usurpation on the sons part, parallel to the Blood Betrayal and maybe it is even just the legend about Blood Betrayal. Huzhor has three wives and learns about iron working, she made him an armor from Cymerii one (Cymerians, Howard homage).

Even though Sarnor evokes Ireland with all the Celtic influence in it's mythology, High king with no real power over fragmented waring kingdoms and

gleaming cities were strewn across the grasslands like jewels across a green velvet mantle, shining beneath the light of sun and stars

Which is somehow important but I can't quite figure it out. It also reminds of ancient Sumer, which is likely to be real influence, ancient advanced civilization of warring city-states with all it's heritage forgotten because of the invasion of nomads.

Azor Ahai is most certainly Sarnori name because all the named ones are called remarkably similar, so that is one point for my hypothesis about fall of the Fisher Queen and rise of Sarnor (Huzhor Amai) to represent Blood Betrayal.

And further yet, Huzhor Amai (Amai being nickname Amazing) is remarkably similar in name and function to Hugor of the Hill ( last par being nobiliary particle this time) who is like founder of the Faith of the Seven. And Now Hugor takes the stage, his crown was made by Father pulling down seven stars from the heaven, Maid gave him maid with deep blue eyes (getting wife from the gods was kinda thing among ancient kings) and Smith made his sons iron armors, see this is really coming together. Oh and his descendants ruled among other things Velvet hills and both them and Sarnori exterminated some kind of Hairy men. Hugor (Hukko, Pentoshi counterpart) also sacrificed seven swan maids.

And now to complete the circle, Morgan le Fey, who is one of the queens of Avalon with her sisters has a son Ywain, Fisher Queen has a son Huzhor Amai who may be Hugor of the Hill and Tyrion went by his name. Ywain is better known as Knight of the Lion. He is often found playing chess against Arthur who on one occasion smashes the figures. And now the the best part, in one of the latter ballads he disenchants the girl who is turned into dragon, which I think will be interestion to the LmL because of his theory about Daenerys embracing her dragon lineage because of Quaithe but later forsakes it, now we can speculate it's because of Tyrion's soothing influence

[LmL]

fantastic EQ. That all makes perfect sense, that last bit about Tyrion is pretty rich. When you see little details like chess playing line up, you know you're sniffing in the right place. When I found out heliotrope was both a sun mirror which turns the sun's reflection red AND a type little purple flower also called a "valerian," not to mention the "martyr's stone" connotations, I knew I had something.

The reference to jewels on a green mantle is a reference to the Gemstone Emperors, who wore green jade and cloth of gold and were of course heavy on the gemstones. I see this as an indication that Sarnor retained some small bit of GeoDawnian legacy. Huzhor Amai could be a descendent of the GeoDawnian royals who fled over the mountains and organized the people who would become the Sarnori. He seems like someone who raised up the first empire of the grasslands after the LN disaster.

Yes, one silver lake turning into three shrinking lakes is a moon -> three meteors reference. The Silver Sea is the moon itself. Also, "fisher King" is a phrase used to describe stars which are important to sailors for navigation. Also, bloodstone was popular with ancient mariners because it has associations to stars as well as navigation.

[Equilibrium]

fantastic EQ. That all makes perfect sense, that last bit about Tyrion is pretty rich. When you see little details like chess playing line up, you know you're sniffing in the right place. When I found out heliotrope was both a sun mirror which turns the sun's reflection red AND a type little purple flower also called a "valerian," not to mention the "martyr's stone" connotations, I knew I had something.

The reference to jewels on a green mantle is a reference to the Gemstone Emperors, who wore green jade and cloth of gold and were of course heavy on the gemstones. I see this as an indication that Sarnor retained some small bit of GeoDawnian legacy. Huzhor Amai could be a descendent of the GeoDawnian royals who fled over the mountains and organized the people who would become the Sarnori. He seems like someone who raised up the first empire of the grasslands after the LN disaster.

Yes, one silver lake turning into three shrinking lakes is a moon -> three meteors reference. The Silver Sea is the moon itself. Also, "fisher King" is a phrase used to describe stars which are important to sailors for navigation. Also, bloodstone was popular with ancient mariners because it has associations to stars as well as navigation.

Yeah, it just got to me, Huzhor didn't have to betray Fisher Queen, Fisher Queens could still represent GeoDawnian emperors, he was just one of the sons of AE and BSE, made Sarnor and later led Andals, where he tried to restore faith of GeoDawnian empire by instituting Seven while his father worshipped fallen eighth deity.

With all the Fisher Queen, Arthurian and Tyrion stuff one can hardly persuade me that Huzhor Amai and Hugor of the Hill aren't the same person, it is said that Andals originated very near where Sarnori did, Andals then moved away and they never fought each other, even the nod with the Pentoshi Hugor is there to point to this.

[LmL]

Yeah I definitely noticed the etymology there - Huzhor Amai, Mazor Alexi (Sarnori King), Azor Ahai... Huzhor / Hugor / Hukko... so who is this Eldric Shadowchaser guy with the Westerosi sounding name? Maybe a son of AA? I think the text is suggesting that very thing.

[LmL]

Someone pointed out that the Citadel uses a black stone to randomly choose who is seneschal for the next year. Also, the Starry Sept of Oldtown is made out of black marble. Hmmm.

[Equilibrium]

Yes because Hugor took ceremonial and theology from old GeoDawn faith and tried to restore it but now with Seven wanderers for obvious reason and patriarchy because eight wanderer's demise disrupted the balance it being strong female deity (Mistress, remember that :D)

Church of Starry Wisdom on the other had has similar ceremonial and theology, both faiths probably changed slightly in time, but it's darker faith worshiping fallen celestial wanderer as BSE intended, like a Promethean figure who brought enlightenment to the earth with it's descent (it brought corrupted fire magic, but it can be viewed as enlightenment too, if you are crazy tyrant).