Why are all best sword fighters high born?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Thanks for the answers, but opinions about how Bronn managed to be so good? Surely he or some other Sworn sword would be able to win some lord or his sons at a battle? But It is always high born who kills each other.

Pate of Longleaf killed Lord Jason Lannister. Dunc was clearly a match for many of the nobles in his time. Ser Humfrey was also a none noble member of the Kingsguard.

A smallfolk member actually has to be twice as good to get the same recognition as a noble. A noble teenage knight will start getting fame straight away while the poor hedge knights who do tourneys with worse equipment will be at a disadvantage and the poor hedge knights in battle will be assigned to protect the nobles rather than focusing on glory.

A young noble from a great House can die at a young age and be remembered as a hero because of his name, while a young peasant is just another casualty in the war no matter how good he fought before he was killed.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Depends what is meant by highborn, if you mean to say; "why are all of the best fighters in the top 10% of the nobility" then that is a valid question, after all for every LP house and major bannerman there are a 10 lesser lords and 50+ landed knights, it defies belief that of the top 20 or 30 fighters at the start of Game only 2 or 3 that I can immediately think or (depending on whether or not Selmy is a minor house or not) are from lesser houses.

Highborn overall trump commoners because most commoners aren't train in arms, those that are are trained and equipped to fight in a pike formation or as a group of archers and thus aren't any good in a 1v1 fight.

[Aemond's Eye]

Maybe not, but they have had steel swords and mail for 2-4,000 years, obviously the oldest wouldn't be useable unless they happened to get into very specific conditions, however I believe (not seen any solid figures) that a sword can last for 200-300 years or more if properly maintained, lords and knights probably won't use second hand, so the swords belonging to them go down the classes.

Swords and armour may be expensive in Westeros (though swords seem common enough that I think everyone with a decentish job can afford one) but they certainly shouldn't be.

It depends on who we're referring to, yeah. There isn't much of a merchant class in Westeros, but there are minor nobles, stewards, tradesman etc that likely can afford the swords and armour. But for lowborn peasants, it's too expensive and probably not a priority.

[King Gendry Baratheon]

Let's say a son to an Master in arms, he should be good in battle.

[eyenon15]

Jory was pretty good

oops, highborn. My bad

Are most master at arms highborn themselves?

[King Gendry Baratheon]

Jory was pretty good

oops, highborn. My bad

Well Jory was from a very little house so in some strange way I could count him to low born. House Cassel does not own any lands and castles to my knowledge.

[TheMaester]

No one has mentioned Strong Belwas who learned his skill in the fighting pits.

[John Doe]

There are some parts that I find a bit unrealistic in AsoIaf and one is highborn sword fighters in Westeros. Nearly all of them are awesome in battle expect of Samwell Tarly, yes I know they have trained with Master at arms at their keeps and has great armor., but surely other boys too get a chance to train with masters? Maybe I have short memory, but only equal good sword fighter that I remember among lowborn is Bronn.

Surely some other a bit richer lowborn with good tactic and some armor should sometimes win these sons of lords? I don't remember a single part where a lords son is slain by a lowborn.

Opinions and fill in lowborn great sword fighters that I have forgot.

Because highborn people get the best training/education and are less likely to get killed in some battle. Take Jaime for example, had he been a lowborn swordsman he would have been killed in the Whispering Wood and probably no one would have heard of his prowess in battle.

[Nihlus]

Bronn isn't actually that good. He took on a fifty something knight in an advantageous environment while the knight was using the wrong equipment for ceremonial reasons. And Bronn still would have lost if not for the dumb luck of a statue falling on his opponent. I think an average knight or noble could take him with his standard gear. Maybe a bit above average.

On the subject of lowborn warriors, don't forget Polliver! He's 6'5, he fought in many battles, he's considered Gregor's best man, and he nearly beat the Hound with just help from one other completely regular soldier with a short sword. Though, the average peasant probably wouldn't consider a man-at-arms like him to be "lowborn".

Anyway, yeah. Nobles are better because their whole job is to fight. Even guys we wouldn't consider to be great fighters, like Stannis or Randyll or Peasburry, should be fighting gods compared to 99.9% of the population.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Jory was pretty good

oops, highborn. My bad

Are most master at arms highborn themselves?

Yes.

Please remember that nobility starts at "Ser". Or the Northern equivalent. Even if we go down to the lowest rungs of nobility, they are far more likely to employ a brother or uncle than somebody not related - and those brothers and uncles are nobles.

[Ser Leftwich]

"Next came four of lesser birth who had distinguished themselves in the fighting: the one-eyed knight Ser Philip Foote, who had slain Lord Bryce Caron in single combat; the freerider Lothor Brune, who’d cut his way through half a hundred Fossoway men-at-arms to capture Ser Jon of the green apple and kill Ser Bryan and Ser Edwyd of the red, thereby winning himself the name Lothor Apple-Eater; Willit, a grizzled man-at-arms in the service of Ser Harys Swyft, who’d pulled his master from beneath his dying horse and defended him against a dozen attackers; and a downy-cheeked squire named Josmyn Peckledon, who had killed two knights, wounded a third, and captured two more, though he could not have been more than fourteen. Willit was borne in on a litter, so grievous were his wounds." - ACoK p. 908

Because they get raised from the peasant class, serfdom takes up a lot of the workday. Look at the Clegane's. They are just one generation into the knightly class. This is a bit of a no brain-er.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Reasons why Highborns tend to be much better fighters than lowborns:

Least reason but worth mentioning: Breeding. Nobles tend to be descended from warriors who won their lands through martial prowess in the first place and then they only breeded amongst themselves. Warriors tend to be tall and strong, amongst other desirable traits. So basically, the first noble were more athletically gifted then most and then proceeded to only breed amongst themselves, fostering these traits. ETA: if you're not a noble, being a great warrior is the easiest way to become one (see Bronn) so fresh 'warrior gene' regularly get added to the noble genetic pools while if you are an awful warrior you may have an harder time passing your gene along (unless your family is so powerful that martial prowess becomes irrelevant in your desirability as a mate).

More important reason: Feeding. Nobles don't face a scarcity of food (especially protein) growing up like the rest of the population. It is well known that until very recently in human history, aristocrats were substantially taller than smallflok on average, almost certainly for this reason. IIRC as recently as the XIX century, a british aristocrat was on average half a foot taller than a commoner.

Most Important reason: Fighting is like any other sport that relies a lot on technique. Take ice hockey for example; to the best of my knowledge there isn't a single professionnal hockey player who started playing later than 7 year old. Most started when they were 5, in fact. Your parents told you you can do anything if you put your mind to it? They were lying. If you are 15 and decide to start playing hockey and reach the NHL, you'll never pull it off, no matter how hard you work. You could hope to become good, even very good, but you would never reach the top of the pyramid, that ship has already sailed long ago, before you were even of an age to make the conscious decision that this is what you wanted to do. Any truly elite hockey player started his path when his parents decided, while he was still very young, to pay the hefty fees and equipment cost required to play hockey. Which is why elite hockey players usually come from middle class families at least.

Fighting is much the same. All these great fighters have started training with master swordsmen dozens of hours a week when they were extremely young. Children of aristocrats have that opportunity, poor children don't.

[Northbound3.0]

The same reason why nations like the USA, England, Germany, France, Isreal, Saudi Arabia and Russia have the best Special Operations units. Money. With that money, you can devote as much time and resources as needed, to constantly train and evolve in abilities, tactics and mentality.

[John Doe]

Reasons why Highborns tend to be much better fighters than lowborns:

Least reason but worth mentioning: Breeding.

Not really.

[BitsOfBrains]

Same reason all the pro golfers are from rich families.

Its an expensive time consuming pursuit that is best learned as a child.

Occasionally we see an aberration like Bronn but his fighting style is totally different from the semi ritualized combat we see among the highborn.

Bronn learned by actually doing. Having to actually fight everyday vs. practicing everyday. Thats why you don't see too many good low born, if they aren't excellent or have an off day they die.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Not really.

You think genetics have nothing to do with it?

[eyenon15]

Thoros of Myr is pretty good.

idk if he can be put in the same category as a lowborn Westeros person.

he was given to red priests at a young age. Idk if he got any training from them or what.

[Fireandblood94]

It's all a matter of training. Some kid in Africa could have the talent to be the next Adrian Peterson, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, or JJ Watt. But without the free time to play football, access to experienced coaches to teach him how to play football, and some way of getting into a position to play football, he's never going to realize the athletic talent.

And if you insist, Jon is arguably lowborn, and has been mentioned as a good fighter. Daario is supposed to be good. We don't know Grey Worm's skill. The pit fighters seem to be capable, albeit without the experience of taking on armored foes.

Grey Worm was elected captain by his fellow unsullied wasn't he? That seems to me a very good indicator that's he's skilled.

[JonSnow4President]

Grey Worm was elected captain by his fellow unsullied wasn't he? That seems to me a very good indicator that's he's skilled.

That was kind of my point. I meant to write "we can guess he's good, but we don't really have any evidence one way or the other."

[eyenon15]

Grey Worm has been trained since birth as well as all the Unsullied, they aren't exactly the equivalent of a Westeros lowborn