*IF* Tyrion is a secret Targ...

[Bustard]

The evidence for A + J = T is compelling but I'm far from sold at this point. Genna's conversation with Jaime would be pretty ironic if Tyrion isn't even Tywin's son (but GRRM's style nonetheless). Regardless, my question is for those who buy into the theory: Did Tywin know the truth?

That would explain his resentment towards Tyrion, but then again, so would being a dwarf/killing Joanna during childbirth. And why raise him as a Lannister? I get why Tywin wouldn't admit to Aerys fucking his wife, but that doesn't prevent Tyrion from having an "accident" somewhere along the way.

These questions are pointless hypotheticals if Tywin had no idea, but his awareness would paint him as a (slightly) more sympathetic father/character IMO.

What's the consensus on this one?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I posted this earlier today in the latest AJ=T thread (found here - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129095-ajt-v-4/page-10). It seems like most people lean towards Tywin knowingly only subconsciously, if he knows at all. But there's some variance.

Regarding Tyrion's parentage, personally I think Tywin did not know, or deceived so himself completely that his behavior is indistinguishable from not knowing.

I think this because Tywin was a master at self-deception when it come to his family - by far the best in the series. I believe that he never even entertained the notion that Twincest was happening, and had been happening under his nose for decades. This seems almost beyond belief given how widespread the knowledge was, and how the evidence is right in front of him and for all to see. Yet, it seems to be the case.

But, I think it's explained by the kind of man Tywin is: Tywin's modus opperandus was "what I say is the truth is the truth." And, for him, Johanna was his beautiful wife, the center of his life, ever faithful and true. Jaime was his true son, who would one day marry a suitable bride, and do his "Duty" to House Lannister. Cersei was his daughter who would give up on these ideas of ruling, put these filthy rumors to rest, marry and produce more children to spread the glory of House Lannister. And, Tyrion was his monster dwarf son who murdered his beloved wife, and who had little worth other than "a low sort of cunning". The objective truth of his family is simply completely irrelevant to Tywin. Therefore, I think that he would turn a blind eye, and willingly, to any evidence that all was not well with Tyrion's conception.

Johanna, meanwhile, would have done everything she could to hide the fact from Tywin, knowing what kind of a man he was, and also probably because she loved him and wouldn't want him hurt. But, she needn't have worried. Tywin would not allow himself to be hurt by such knowledge, because he would have never accepted it was true in the first place.

[Croyd_Crenson]

I've always been on the A+J=T train. I didn't need to read it on a forum to think it. The first time the notion even came to my mind that Tywin wanted Tyrion dead was when he put Tyrion in the Vanguard at the Battle of the Green Fork. After that it was painfully obvious there was something amiss and all that was needed was to gather the clues.

There are enough clues leaning towards Tyrion being a Targ and not enough against.

[Ben zo Xand]

I believe his is the son of Aerys and Joanna. Did Tywin know ? Maybe. Did he know about Jaime and Cersei ? Maybe. He heard the rumors for both now if he choose to believe in them its another thing. Truth be told he doesn't care as long as it doesn't affect the family name and its not made real by law or something of the sort.

He was resentful toward all his children. Tywin the most because he "killed" the women he love and maybe know he's is not truly his own son.

The reason for raising him is that he can't accuse the King of rape, he would be "triad", killed and tittles striped etc. He has to play the long game and eventually it payed of for him. After the king is dead he can say he is not his son but that will shame his wife and true love. And would shame the Lannister name. Having him as his son doesn't affect the family name at all.

[Gertrude]

I am pretty much right where you are - pretty compeling, but I'm not sold. Mostly I wasn't sold on it because I didn't like it. However, I like it a lot more these days because I began looking at it from a different angle. It makes the Tywin / Aerys relationship much richer, and that hinges on Tywin knowing, or strongly suspecting and not being able to prove it beyond a doubt.

It does kind of soften the murder of Tywin if Tyrion isn't his true son, but it gives the story of Aerys inducting Jaime to the Kingsguard an extra layer of dickishness and gamesmanship that makes up for it. So much of this story is rooted in the past and the decisions made by dead people, that it makes sense for Tywin to have known and made decisions with that knowledge that still has repercussions today.

[Bustard]

Regarding Tyrion's parentage, personally I think Tywin did not know, or deceived so himself completely that his behavior is indistinguishable from not knowing.

This reminds me of the Cersei/Tywin twincest conversation in the show. He refused to acknowledge the truth but his anguish was plain to see. Charles Dance played it brilliantly.

[Lord Wraith]

i find it far more likely that Jaime and Cersei would be Aerys than Tyrion. I understand however that people want Tyrion to be one of the three heads of the dragon and be a secret Targ.

[Gertrude]

I used to think Cersei fit as Aerys' daughter, but Jaime not at all. So then I weighed the likelihood of Cersei vs Tyrion and came down on the side of Tyrion. I originally hated the Tyrion ia a secret Targ device, but have been persuaded through many thread discussions that it fits much more neatly in the narrative we are given that it's Tyrion. So not all of it is wish-fullfillment for Tyrion the dragonrider. It's dismissive to suggest that's all it is.

[Bustard]

I am pretty much right where you are - pretty compeling, but I'm not sold. Mostly I wasn't sold on it because I didn't like it. However, I like it a lot more these days because I began looking at it from a different angle. It makes the Tywin / Aegon relationship much richer, and that hinges on Tywin knowing, or strongly suspecting and not being able to prove it beyond a doubt.

I think I'm a step behind you. What would Tywin's relationship be with Aegon?

[Ben zo Xand]

i find it far more likely that Jaime and Cersei would be Aerys than Tyrion. I understand however that people want Tyrion to be one of the three heads of the dragon and be a secret Targ.

Jaime and Cersei... Ummm how come?

I don't believe he is one of the three heads of the dragon. For those are Aegon, Jon & Dany. All sons of Rhaegar. Those 3 will ride those dragons. In my opinion Tyron will wake hes own dragon out of stone.

[Gertrude]

Uh, yeah. i just noticed my slip and fixed it. Tywin and Aerys.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

The timeline doesn't really work for Jaime and Cersei. The main evidence for Tyrion are his dragon dreams and neither Jaime or Cersei have anything like this. I don't have a good enough grasp of the timeline but Joanna wasn't having an affair with Aerys, she was raped. Tywin knew about the rape. Tywin never forgave Aerys for what happened.

IF Tyrion is the son of Aerys he would not be a Targaryen he'd be a Hill.

I believe Tywin has his suspicions that Tyrion is Aerys's son but just like us he couldn't be sure. He loved his wife too much to kill her son and he didn't want to risk killing his own son if he was wrong (originally when Tyrion was a baby). Tywin was very conflicted about Tyrion and could never be sure if he was his (biological) son or not. (Whether or not Tyrion is Tywin's son he was raised by Tywin and is very like Tywin.) Tywin knew Aerys raped Joanna but he couldn't know whether Tyrion was his or not and if he denounced Tyrion it woulld lead to questions about his wife and Aerys and that was embarrassment Tywin couldn't stomach. He also may not have wanted to dishonor his wife (in the public eye).

[Bustard]

Uh, yeah. i just noticed my slip and fixed it. Tywin and Aerys.

Oh haha I should have put 2 and 2 together... Agreed though, Tywin got absolutely shit on by Aerys. I expect he was at a Stannis level of teeth grinding.

[Lord Wraith]

I used to think Cersei fit as Aerys' daughter, but Jaime not at all. So then I weighed the likelihood of Cersei vs Tyrion and came down on the side of Tyrion. I originally hated the Tyrion ia a secret Targ device, but have been persuaded through many thread discussions that it fits much more neatly in the narrative we are given that it's Tyrion. So not all of it is wish-fullfillment for Tyrion the dragonrider. It's dismissive to suggest that's all it is.

It's not just wish fullfillment I agree. I've read the theories but I feel that its a part of it. It falls so perfectly into the whole Jon/Dany/Tyrion trinity.

Jaime and Cersei... Ummm how come?

I don't believe he is one of the three heads of the dragon. For those are Aegon, Jon & Dany. All sons of Rhaegar. Those 3 will ride those dragons. In my opinion Tyron will wake hes own dragon out of stone.

Lots of stuff in the world of ice and fire. Rumors of Aerys deflowering Joanna and other tidbits. Joanna was also a handmaiden to Queen Rhaelle before she married Tywin. Also when Tywin was hand Joanna was back in at Castery Rock ruling.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

The timeline doesn't really work for Jaime and Cersei. The main evidence for Tyrion are his dragon dreams and neither Jaime or Cersei have anything like this. I don't have a good enough grasp of the timeline but Joanna wasn't having an affair with Aerys, she was raped. Tywin knew about the rape. Tywin never forgave Aerys for what happened.

IF Tyrion is the son of Aerys he would not be a Targaryen he'd be a Hill.

I believe Tywin has his suspicions that Tyrion is Aerys's son but just like us he couldn't be sure. He loved his wife too much to kill her son and he didn't want to risk killing his own son if he was wrong (originally when Tyrion was a baby). Tywin was very conflicted about Tyrion and could never be sure if he was his (biological) son or not. (Whether or not Tyrion is Tywin's son he was raised by Tywin and is very like Tywin.) Tywin knew Aerys raped Joanna but he couldn't know whether Tyrion was his or not and if he denounced Tyrion it woulld lead to questions about his wife and Aerys and that was embarrassment Tywin couldn't stomach. He also may not have wanted to dishonor his wife (in the public eye).

So I really can't see Tywin knowing (consciously) that Aerys raped Johanna and then not joining the rebellion immediately. Furthermore, Tywin would have remained Aerys hand for years afterwards - he only resigned much later (I believe due to the Cersei and Jaime insults). I can't see Tywin working with Aerys on a probably daily basis knowing the man had raped his wife...

IMO either Tywin didn't know about the rape (separated by time or distance, this is possible), or he didn't accept that the rape happened despite strong evidence, or it wasn't rape. I tend to think it was not consensual, but at this point we can't be sure.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Well during Duskendale it was hinted that he may have wanted to try and have Aerys killed by the Darklyns by taking the city by force. At the very least he didn't care if Aerys lived or died. He also is still very ambitious and cautious. He didn't support the rebellion or the Targaryens until he knew who would win and then he brought the hammer down on Aerys. He sacked kings landing and had his men murder his grandchildren. His son killed Arrys himself. Tywin craved power above all things and it took one more insult (taking his heir) that was the last straw. He was angry with Arrys for a long time and he released that anger when he got a chance.

[Lord Lannister]

I always figured Tywin suspected in the back of his mind but could never prove it. Sort of like him turning a blind eye to Jaime and Cersei's incest even though the signs were all in front of him. Admitting to either would damage the family's prestige.

[King Tyrion I]

I always figured Tywin suspected in the back of his mind but could never prove it. Sort of like him turning a blind eye to Jaime and Cersei's incest even though the signs were all in front of him. Admitting to either would damage the family's prestige.

:agree:

So much this.

[Mithras]

Didnot read the rest of the thread because Tyrion is not a secret Targ. There is no compelling evidence if you do not assume there exists in the first place. This is not how George makes secret Targs. Compare A+J=T with R+L=J and you will see that these theories are not even comparable in clues, characterization and narrative sense.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Didnot read the rest of the thread because Tyrion is not a secret Targ. There is no compelling evidence if you do not assume there exists in the first place. This is not how George makes secret Targs. Compare A+J=T with R+L=J and you will see that these theories are not even comparable in clues, characterization and narrative sense.

What do you mean, see emphasis mine. I can't make any sense of what you're saying.

I think that it's interesting that this thread exists. If you do a bit of thinking, both could be Targaryens. Remember what was said about Targaryen madness? That the gods flip a coin to see who is insane and who is brilliant? Well, they flipped the coin and it came up bad for Cersei. Remember that Aerys II started out pretty decent himself. Then there's Tyrion, who is undeniable smart. And Jaime? I'm not sure of him yet, but he probably got away. Mind you, this is just the Targaryen test which all characters would pass. I know it's not evidence, but it's telling.