Who is Azor Ahai?

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

I believe more in Maester Aemon's conclusion who actually knows (a version of) the prophecy than anything you conclude. Simply because you don't have the evidence. Prior to AFfC I was actually leaning towards Jon, too, simply because I also thought that the guy Rhaegar was looking for had to be male. But then, even back then it was quite clear that vision Rhaegar looking at Daenerys was a pretty big hint what was going on there. She has no clue who she is supposed to be - which is precisely the reason why she got all those clues. She cannot decipher them yet.

 

The clues pointing towards Daenerys are the following:

 

(1) The waking of the dragons. After all, they prove it, according to Aemon. This is also supposed to be a feature of the savior according to Melisandre and Selyse, but not overemphasized on Dragonstone in ASoS to not be too obvious. This may also be 'modern-day Lightbringer' in a metaphorical sense (or the ancient Lightbringer was a dragon, too), but that is not really necessary for the theory. 

 

(2) The red comet heralding Daenerys' transformation/change into the savior as well as heralding the return of the dragons. That is quite masterfully done by having it showing up first back in AGoT so that the casual reader might not remember/connect the dots. But even then - it is quite obvious that the comet refers to dragons if you don't dismiss Old Nan (which you really should not).

 

(3) Dragonstone as being the place of smoke and salt. Melisandre seems to be right about the place there, but not about the man. Prince Aegon was born on Dragonstone, too, which may have contributed to his changed beliefs about the promised prince. Summerhall was a rather outlandish interpretation for the smoke-and-salt thing anyway. Dragonstone is further supported as being this place in a subtle way by Yandel in TWoIaF which certainly a rather deliberate phrasing there by George (back in Aegon's section where his favorite place is discussed).

 

Any sort clues on the same level for Jon Snow, too? Stuff that is obvious to everyone, and you don't need to create using disparate quotations or the foregone conclusions that Jon Snow is the man, and it is thus justified to see everything only in that light?

[Sanset]

I think Dany is AAR (The Fire Dragon Reborn) and Jon is Lightbringer (Red Sword of Heroes). She's woken the dragons but still she has to "clasp it" (and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again). Melisandre made a Vegas-Magic Sword for Stannis, and now she is going to make the true Red Sword of Heroes for Dany. Jon is a Red Dragon after all. But he is not Fire, and Azor Ahai, as some wise readers (*) pointed out in these boards, is Fire Dragon (Dany). Not Ice Dragon (Jon). I don't remember any clue connecting Jon to Fire. Though, he rose fast and as fast as he rose he fell. Venus is not a (fire) star, it's a planet, not fire, but is warm within. Jon has a nice heart within.

(*) The link to the post that explains Azor Ahai = Fire Dragon.

Thread: R + L = Lightbringer -- Updated with Part II: post #50 by Schmendrick
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/page-3#entry5385188

 

Besides, how is it going to be explained that Jon is the r'hllorists hero? He is not the Fire Dragon, they don't even know of his existence until Melisandre met him. There is no connection to Jon and the Red God religion. Jon is not even a dragon lord like Dany is. He's a creature of the Old Gods as Eddard said: "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know". Jon may well wake the dragon in the last two books, but Dany has already done that. Did she do all that just to be a red herring instead of the Red heroine of the r'hllorists?

 

This is not about being Jon's fan or Dany's fan. I think every main character has to have a very interesting purpose. If Jon is Everything, then Dany would end up being just the naked girl that likes to fuck her way all over the books. We already have The Giant of Lannister for that. :D I had to mention Tyrion because, you know: There must be one more...

The dragon has three heads. :D

[Mithras]

“Person A is the most obvious fulfillment of the prophecy, Person A is hailed by other characters in-story as the obvious fulfillment of the prophecy, Person A sweeps in to defeat the ice zombies” does not work in ASOIAF (as tze said).

 

That leaves out both Stannis and Dany.

[Sanset]

“Person A is the most obvious fulfillment of the prophecy, Person A is hailed by other characters in-story as the obvious fulfillment of the prophecy, Person A sweeps in to defeat the ice zombies” does not work in ASOIAF (as tze said).

 

That leaves out both Stannis and Dany.

 

That would also leave Jon out. If too obvious and too easy is the rule, I would go for Jaime is AAR hypothesis. He was soiled in the very beginning of the books. He was the bad guy for the readers and for the characters. Impossible to see him as a saviour, though, he's already saved King's Landing, and he's still paying the price for his good deed (and the bad ones too). He fulfilled some of Melisandre's evil rules: Murder a child to save thousands: Edric Storm, Bran Stark. They didn't accomplish it but they meant it.

Actually I would go for Davos, before Jon. Because Jon is as easy and obvious as Dany. I don't see AAR as a murder mystery, GRRM is saying it out-loud. There are other mysteries within the plots. AAR is the main story the grass that hides the viper.

The picture of Dany AAR (Rhaegar reborn) and Jon as Lightbringer, gives both main characters an interesting purpose and both have to work together in some sort of synchrony as two heads of the dragon. It takes three for a true rhythm as any musician or art painter would agree, in this case, art writer. As Rhaegar (who was a musician) said: There must be one more. He was looking for the third one himself. 

 

ETA: Dany is the 3rd herself in some way: one dies, one born, pattern.

Old king dies, new king is crowned.

Egg (of the Serpent), Rhaegar, then Dany.

[Mithras]

That would also leave Jon out.

 

No one in the story hailed Jon as the savior.

[Drogonthedread]

in two years we will know either by the show or TWOW will tell us what we need to know

some diehard haters of certain characters will still go on about how it is not this and that and it cant be in ASOIAF or be in denial and burn their books like they say

[John Doe]

I guess there will be several AAs in the end. It could be erveryone of the suspects.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

that isn't an argument, just a baseless assertion. Since you don't know the end of the story, you can't possibly know the savior is not going to hailed as such, right? Not to mention that if it is Jon Snow he'll eventually be hailed as such anyway, just at a later point in the story.

 

The whole presupposition that 'Who is the savior?' is actually a mystery in this story may be faulty. We get clues as to who it is back in AGoT and ACoK which are then confirmed in ASoS and AFfC. I have no problem with that take. To consider 'savior search' an important plot point in this series the plot would have to be remarkably different - say, one would expect that many people actually know and care about the prophecy, and that prophecy would be known to the reader so that he could actually search for the clues himself (which isn't really the case).

 

You can easily take an ironic interpretation there - we, the readers, knew for quite a long time that Daenerys is the One, yet the populace in Westeros and especially at the Wall still have no clue.

 

Is it possible that George is going to fuck with me and drop all clues pointing to Dany? Yes, just as it is possible that he is going down the red herring road with all the hints that Jon Snow is actually Rhaegar's son. After all, those clues are a lot more subtle than the whole dragon-hatching thing, right?

 

But then, searching for one savior isn't really necessary. It could be three. One savior with three aspects doesn't make any sense in this setting since this is not a work that is written to be deciphered like some esoteric text.

[Avalatis]

They believe Azor Ahai will be reborn. I don't think anyone in the story has stated that Azor Ahai will need to kill a Nissa Nissa. Lightbringer might actually still exist. And the prophecy states the AA reborn will pull it from a fire I believe (not forge a new one).

 

So who plays this role? Well Jon has been at the wall the entire series with a good portion of it dedicated to defeating the others. He is in the Night's Watch and sacrificed a lot for it. I don't think this necessarily makes him AA. Does AA actually have anything to do with the others? Mel might believe so, but I'm wondering if that is actually a part of the prophecy. He fits the Prince who was Promised prophecy as well as one of the three heads of the dragon. Song of Ice and Fire. The prince prophecy likely has to do with the others, and the three heads of the dragon probably deals with a great threat against humanity (as Rhaegar probably doesn't know it has to do with the others based on his limited interactions with the Night's Watch).

 

AA seems like it might be related, but it could mean a completely different arc. I think Mel's visions of seeing snow hint toward's Jon. I also don't think it's obvious to readers unless they are specifically looking for it.

 

If Jon ended up bieng AA what role would Dany have? Queen of the 7 Kingdom's, mother of dragons, destroyer of Cercei and faegon? Her plot is not tied to AA as she will and has had world shattering plot elements. At the very least she will bring the dragons to the fight (hopefully). And likely we will find the others have ice dragons. The question has to be: Do all the plots need to collapse down around the others and their invasion? If so how will all of the characters still alive even interact with that plot? What does a faceless man Arya accomplish in such a war? What does a politically astute Sansa accomplish in that war? Tyrion? One handed Jaime?

 

I doubt they will all be pivotal heroes in the war with the others. So there will obviously be other major plot arcs intertwined with that war that Dany will also be up to her neck in. And perhaps AA actually has something to do with that instead, though it will likely relate to the war with the others.

[Mithras]

Mithras,

 

that isn't an argument, just a baseless assertion. Since you don't know the end of the story, you can't possibly know the savior is not going to hailed as such, right? Not to mention that if it is Jon Snow he'll eventually be hailed as such anyway, just at a later point in the story.

 

The whole presupposition that 'Who is the savior?' is actually a mystery in this story may be faulty. We get clues as to who it is back in AGoT and ACoK which are then confirmed in ASoS and AFfC. I have no problem with that take. To consider 'savior search' an important plot point in this series the plot would have to be remarkably different - say, one would expect that many people actually know and care about the prophecy, and that prophecy would be known to the reader so that he could actually search for the clues himself (which isn't really the case).

 

You can easily take an ironic interpretation there - we, the readers, knew for quite a long time that Daenerys is the One, yet the populace in Westeros and especially at the Wall still have no clue.

 

Is it possible that George is going to fuck with me and drop all clues pointing to Dany? Yes, just as it is possible that he is going down the red herring road with all the hints that Jon Snow is actually Rhaegar's son. After all, those clues are a lot more subtle than the whole dragon-hatching thing, right?

 

But then, searching for one savior isn't really necessary. It could be three. One savior with three aspects doesn't make any sense in this setting since this is not a work that is written to be deciphered like some esoteric text.

 

That is not a baseless assertion. That seems to be a rule of George. He first gives the dream/prophecy. Then he presents false interpretations. After the prophecized event takes place, he explains the true interpretation to the readers. That is what happened in the Mystery Knight or before the Battle of Blackwater.

 

You also do not get the red herring business correct. Jon was never spelled out as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the text. Dany OTOH was hailed as AAR by two people with dubious credibility. This is how red herrings are.

[Fire Eater]

Mithras,

 

I believe more in Maester Aemon's conclusion who actually knows (a version of) the prophecy than anything you conclude. Simply because you don't have the evidence. Prior to AFfC I was actually leaning towards Jon, too, simply because I also thought that the guy Rhaegar was looking for had to be male. But then, even back then it was quite clear that vision Rhaegar looking at Daenerys was a pretty big hint what was going on there. She has no clue who she is supposed to be - which is precisely the reason why she got all those clues. She cannot decipher them yet.

 

The clues pointing towards Daenerys are the following:

 

(1) The waking of the dragons. After all, they prove it, according to Aemon. This is also supposed to be a feature of the savior according to Melisandre and Selyse, but not overemphasized on Dragonstone in ASoS to not be too obvious. This may also be 'modern-day Lightbringer' in a metaphorical sense (or the ancient Lightbringer was a dragon, too), but that is not really necessary for the theory. 

 

(2) The red comet heralding Daenerys' transformation/change into the savior as well as heralding the return of the dragons. That is quite masterfully done by having it showing up first back in AGoT so that the casual reader might not remember/connect the dots. But even then - it is quite obvious that the comet refers to dragons if you don't dismiss Old Nan (which you really should not).

 

(3) Dragonstone as being the place of smoke and salt. Melisandre seems to be right about the place there, but not about the man. Prince Aegon was born on Dragonstone, too, which may have contributed to his changed beliefs about the promised prince. Summerhall was a rather outlandish interpretation for the smoke-and-salt thing anyway. Dragonstone is further supported as being this place in a subtle way by Yandel in TWoIaF which certainly a rather deliberate phrasing there by George (back in Aegon's section where his favorite place is discussed).

 

Any sort clues on the same level for Jon Snow, too? Stuff that is obvious to everyone, and you don't need to create using disparate quotations or the foregone conclusions that Jon Snow is the man, and it is thus justified to see everything only in that light?

GRRM:

 

 

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy

 

Going by that, having Dany be AA is too literal with the dragons, the smoke from the pyre and the red comet, and too easy with the former along with Benerro and Aemon saying she is AA. GRRM likes to keep things unpredictable and surprising, and the chances are he is leading the reader along. As for Jon

 

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor only shows me Snow. 

 

That is a subtle hint, and Melisandre isn't calling Jon AA or considering that he is. There is also the dream of the red blade burning in his hand, and again, no one is calling him AA in that dream nor does Jon make that connection. 

[slant]

Aeron Damphair

all those who die fighting for him will be reborn

:P

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

but you cannot make that a rule. There isn't always given an interpretation to a prophecy, nor do we have to assume that there will always be given a false one first if get one. We also do not always get prophecies before major events happen - sometime we only learn that there was a prophecy long after the fact - examples being Maggy's prophecies, Aerys and Rhaella marrying each other, or the return of the Targaryen dragons.

 

Speaking about Rhaella and Aerys - why is it that everyone interprets the Ghost prophecy in a literal sense, and no one thinks that it is 'too easy/obvious' for the promised prince to be actually born from Aerys and Rhaella's line? Conveniently because people think that this is confirmation that either Jon or Daenerys are the One. Thus people are using special pleading when the theories they are invested are concerned, and not so much when the literal thing is working well for them. If Jon Snow had had hatched some dragon eggs I doubt you would go with 'prophecies shouldn't be too literal' angle.

 

Some people in the text believe Dany is the One, but she herself doesn't even know that yet - nor do we know whether she is going to buy any of that. Just because some people figure stuff out quickly doesn't mean it is wrong. Littlefinger spilled the beans about Joffrey's murder quickly enough, and there is no additional mystery to that.

 

And again, even if George does intend to make Jon the only savior how do you think he'll be able to beat Dany on the prophecy field? Just repeating her miracles will make him look about as much a plagiarist as Stannis. Fulfilling the prophecy stuff in a convoluted and contrived metaphoric way will make him effectively look less savior-like than Daenerys.

 

I'm not saying there isn't any twist to the prophecy, I'm just saying it is not going to twist stuff around from Dany to Jon she has actually already fulfilled. For instance, Dany was already born amidst smoke and salt on two occasions - once on Dragonstone during her actual physical birth (which was also heralded by another sign, the dreadful storm which gave her her nickname), and then later amidst Drogo's pyre in a more metaphoric sense as the Mother of Dragons. How could Jon Snow possibly beat that?

 

Fire Eater,

 

George is actually not writing a very unpredictable overall story. He has a few surprises down the road, but the man actually gives us most of his twists with a very loud forewarning. Nobody has said he would have to include prophecies at all - which means he is actually making stuff a lot easier by including plot-relevant prophecies simply because you can figure them out.

 

I'm aware of Mel's hint there, and I actually think that this is going to lead somewhere, but does this mean that Jon actually has to be the savior? Mel could only see part of him if they are three, or Jon might only be a gateway to the real deal if it is Dany (after all, he would be her nephew).

More importantly, this whole thing is Melisandre's reinterpretation of the visions she had just seen which didn't show her Stannis but not only Jon Snow. He was just part of a potpourri of many visions, and is thus not entirely correct. And, who knows? Perhaps George is setting up Jon as a red herring, too. If Melisandre heralds him as the savior before Dany arrives he most likely isn't going to be it, right?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Gendry, a smith born (not from a woumb, but born as a personality) amidst salt and smoke (salt is the sweat from working in the forge and smoke is plenty on that place)... forges a sword... the sword sings as he´s making it... bla bla bla... dragon blood... bla bla bla... i´m probably wrong by a mile...

 

I´m out...

[slant]

Theon Greyjoy. 

 

quoting one part from A Clash of Kings

 

Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown

 

 

later on in the same chapter, the bold bit is formatting

 

"Bow your head." Lifting the skin, his uncle pulled the cork and directed a thin stream of seawater down upon Theon's head. It drenched his hair and ran over his forehead into his eyes. Sheets washed down his cheeks, and a finger crept under his cloak and doublet and down his back, a cold rivulet along his spine. The salt made his eyes burn, until it was all he could do not to cry out. He could taste the ocean on his lips. "Let Theon your servant be born again from the sea, as you were," Aeron Greyjoy intoned. "Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel. Nephew, do you still know the words?"  

 

"What is dead may never die," Theon Said, remembering. 

 

[slant]

Luke Skywalker is Azor Ahai

Neo is Azor Ahai

Elric Stormbringer, and his cousin Yyrkoon are Azor Ahai

 

Azor Ahai is the Hero with a Thousand Faces

[Fire Eater]

Fire Eater,

 

George is actually not writing a very unpredictable overall story. He has a few surprises down the road, but the man actually gives us most of his twists with a very loud forewarning. Nobody has said he would have to include prophecies at all - which means he is actually making stuff a lot easier by including plot-relevant prophecies simply because you can figure them out.

 

I'm aware of Mel's hint there, and I actually think that this is going to lead somewhere, but does this mean that Jon actually has to be the savior? Mel could only see part of him if they are three, or Jon might only be a gateway to the real deal if it is Dany (after all, he would be her nephew).

More importantly, this whole thing is Melisandre's reinterpretation of the visions she had just seen which didn't show her Stannis but not only Jon Snow. He was just part of a potpourri of many visions, and is thus not entirely correct. And, who knows? Perhaps George is setting up Jon as a red herring, too. If Melisandre heralds him as the savior before Dany arrives he most likely isn't going to be it, right?

Foreshadowing and hint for such twists are often subtle. 

 

Jon has his share of Jesus references. Except Dany isn't AA given she is fails the basic rule of prophecy by the author himself. The sentence I provided presented itself is a clue. She says she asks to see AA meaning Stannis, and all she gets is snow, by which she means Jon. If he is found to be AA before the Battle for Dawn then I would put him down as a red herring. However, the hints regarding Jon have been subtle compared to Dany's which are blatant.   

[Drogonthedread]

They are so subtle that everyone in the internet knows

while dany's are so blatant that no one notices the foreshadowing in the jade compandium that jon reads and what jon says when speaking to mel that stannis is only lord of dragonstone and not born at that place

and what exactly do people expect to happen when mel tries to or bring jon back at the winds she is going to call him the aar

and how you get to decide that GRRM was speaking about dragons when he tells not to take literally ..did he say dont take dragons waking from stone too literal. if so show me the quote

lets see what are the things that shows dany doesnt fit too literally

she was the dragon that woke from stone ..metaphor for dragon and we have whole chapter dedicated for her waking as dragon in AGOT

she drew the dragons out of fire when the red star was bleeding ..
dragons being metaphor for the light bringer which has foreshadowings over ACOK and ADWD

she inverts the whole story of azor ahai..where he sacrificed his wife .,dany sacrificed her husband ..so again not a literal take of the story

she was born in dragonstone a place amidst salt and smoke a place metaphor for salt and smoke ..not too literal like puting a body amidst salt and smoke in the kitchen cells of the wall

its time to look into what the book actually tells than be in your own imagination trying to make fit every aspects to a certain character

[Jana B.]

Jorah or Jon.

[Turumarth]

Nobody is Azor Ahai. He's long gone and won't be coming coming back literally. Not even Azor Ahai was Azor Ahai. Clearly his legend was woven together from both truth and falsehood. If ever there was a real hero named  Azor Ahai then he didn't kill his wife, or else he was no hero. A genuine hero does not sacrifice his beloved wife or daughter, but him or herself. I hope that is the kind of hero we'll get at the end of this. Some hero or heroes may be coming, and they may indeed fulfil prophecy. But they must not be anyone who bleeds, burns up or drowns innocent people in the name of some deity or other.