Rhaegar is a bad person

[TimJames]

Ah Rhaegar. The sliver prince. Even a decade and a half later, Jon Connington and Cersei Lannisters are still swooning over his good looks.

It's do bad that underneath those good looks is a truly bad person. Not just flawed, not just imperfect (though he is both); outright bad by any measure.

Here's why. During the Tourney of Harrenhal, Rhaegar showed interest in young Lyanna Stark. He declared her his queen of love and beauty, then afterwards she disappeared without trace. Brandon connected two and two, deducing that she was kidnapped and that Rhaegar was raping her. Brandon and his father were both burned alive when the former demanded that Rhaegar answer for his actions, so as a result Eddard and Robert revolted against the Mad King.

"But Lyanna went willingly! It's like Romeo and Juliet!" some of you might be saying. While I can not bring myself to believe this theory, the fact of the matter is that even if it was true Rhaegar would still be a scumbag. He is already married to Elia Martell, a woman who is by all accounts kind and who by the way is the mother of Rhargar's first two children. In crowning Lyanna at the tourney, he told the world that he could not give a shit about his wife. Then, when Robert and Eddard reasonably get pissed and march to war, Rhaegar sends three kingsguards to protect his prisoner (or lover, if you follow THAT theory). Guess how many people he charged with guarding his wife and two children? Zero. This is him outright saying that he does not in the slightest value the lives of his wife and his children.

In summary, Rhaegar started a devastating war, treated his wife and first two children inexcusably horribly, left them to die, and probably raped an underage girl. Not what I would call a hero.

[draevan13]

I find it funny that when it comes to what Robb did with Jeyne, some people mock him for doing it "for love!", that he was a naive fool for getting so many people killed... but when Rhaegar does it, it's fine! What a brave, valiant Prince! :P

Personally I don't like or hate either of them, but a double standard is always fun.

[Lion of the West]

Ah Rhaegar. The sliver prince. Even a decade and a half later, Jon Connington and Cersei Lannisters are still swooning over his good looks.

It's do bad that underneath those good looks is a truly bad person. Not just flawed, not just imperfect (though he is both); outright bad by any measure.

Here's why. During the Tourney of Harrenhal, Rhaegar showed interest in young Lyanna Stark. He declared her his queen of love and beauty, then afterwards she disappeared without trace. Brandon connected two and two, deducing that she was kidnapped and that Rhaegar was raping her. Brandon and his father were both burned alive when the former demanded that Rhaegar answer for his actions, so as a result Eddard and Robert revolted against the Mad King.

"But Lyanna went willingly! It's like Romeo and Juliet!" some of you might be saying. While I can not bring myself to believe this theory, the fact of the matter is that even if it was true Rhaegar would still be a scumbag. He is already married to Elia Martell, a woman who is by all accounts kind and who by the way is the mother of Rhargar's first two children. In crowning Lyanna at the tourney, he told the world that he could not give a shit about his wife. Then, when Robert and Eddard reasonably get pissed and march to war, Rhaegar sends three kingsguards to protect his prisoner (or lover, if you follow THAT theory). Guess how many people he charged with guarding his wife and two children? Zero. This is him outright saying that he does not in the slightest value the lives of his wife and his children.

In summary, Rhaegar started a devastating war, treated his wife and first two children inexcusably horribly, left them to die, and probably raped an underage girl. Not what I would call a hero.

Rhaegar didn't start any war, Jon Arryn did that.

What do we know of how he treated his wife and children? The Kingsguard who lived with them, including Jaime, never mentions that he did them any harm while he ponders on what Aerys did.

Rhaegar didn't leave them to die because he wasn't counting on getting killed or that the defences of the capital would be so easily bypassed by the Lannisters and Tywin sending the Mountain after his family.

There is no source whatsoever that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, save Robert and he is about as unreliable as they get. If Lyanna's brother don't bear Rhaegar ill will, odds are that he didn't rape Eddard's sister.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

@OP, I agree. I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna created a chain of reactions, every action has a reaction, that lead to the Rebellion.

The Kingsguard who lived with them

Actually we have no idea if Elia had any KG with her before Aerys used her as a threat. Rhaegar left and abandoned his wife and children without caring about them.

[LordStoneheart]

Rhaegar's actions and character are very unknown at this point. I could call you an unintelligent, overly judgmental troll, Timjames98, but I don't have all the facts about you to say that with validity. Same with Rhaegar. He is meant to be a mystery to us. You're merely assuming he is bad based on your own interpretation of the few murky facts we have.

Could Rhaegar be a bad person? Sure. But it is not for you to declare as a fact.

[Ser Hightower]

It's not like they had divorce in Westoros - by all accounts, Lyanna and Rhaegar were the loves of each others lives. It's kind of a tragedy within itself: they're both betrothed to someone they aren't in love with but run away with each other only to die (Romeo and Juliet). I personally think Rhaegar only left the TOJ to go fight at the Trident in a "death by suicide" ordeal because he knew Lyanna was dying / wouldn't survive childbirth.

[The Wolves]

Rhaegar didn't start any war, Jon Arryn did that.

What do we know of how he treated his wife and children? The Kingsguard who lived with them, including Jaime, never mentions that he did them any harm while he ponders on what Aerys did.

Rhaegar didn't leave them to die because he wasn't counting on getting killed or that the defences of the capital would be so easily bypassed by the Lannisters and Tywin sending the Mountain after his family.

There is no source whatsoever that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, save Robert and he is about as unreliable as they get. If Lyanna's brother don't bear Rhaegar ill will, odds are that he didn't rape Eddard's sister.

Exactly plus we don't have the whole story on Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[D-A-C]

A few things:

1. You say he probably raped an underage girl. Couple of issues with that. If she flowered, unpleasant as we may find it, she wasn't underage and considering she more than likely bore him a child, evidence would suggest she was a woman by the standards of the time. So cheap rhetoric like that gets you no where.

It is still debatable if they were in love, or if he took of with her forcefully, we get both sides, and you can choose which you prefer, but it isn't how your making it out.

2. I would question your measure of bad. If we take a character like Ramsey for example as a margin for 'bad/evil', his instincts and urges lead him to hunt girls through forests, then rape them and kill them. He is clearly a sexual deviant in general,. but he also is evil by the standards of the time, for example forcing Donella Hornwood to marry him at sword point, raping her to consumate the marraige and then starving her to death to steal her lands.

So as an example of 'evil' in the world of Westeros Ramsey really fits that bill. Now compare Raegar to that and you run into some problems because nothing your advancing about him comes close to that kind of behaviour.

At worst, he kidnapped and raped Lyanna due to a prophesy, but that is highly conjectural, and doesn't fit in with what we know about both characters. So in reality, what actions are you putting on par with someone like Ramsey that you can actually prove?

3. His actions may have lead to war, but they weren't the sole reason, and his father the 'mad' king should take the lionshare of responsibility. By that time the realm frankly had, had enough of the guy, and his actions in response to the Rhaegar situation was the straw that broke the camels back. Rhaegar didn't order the Starks burned with wildfire, Aery's did.

4. Polygamy was quite normal for Targyerian Kings so there is nothing really breaking with the traditions of his world in taking Lyanna as a wife. And if indeed he took her only as a mistress and fathered a bastard (although unlikely a scenerio as that would be), that would be in keeping with a huge amount of Lords at that time.

Overall I think you would need to present a better argument, because as it stands you haven't made a very good case for what you are saying so far,

[Jon's Queen Consort]

"death by suicide"

From what we know so far he thought that he would win and wouldn't be dead like that.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Rhaegar was not a bad person, but he was an idiot who did not think things through.

He is rumoured to have arranged the Tourney of Harrenhal in a bid to win the support of the Lords of Westeros so he can legally replace his father in a Grand Council. Fair enough, but he then gives the blue rose to Lyanna thus pissing of the Starks, Martells and Baratheons (and possibly their allies the Arryns and Tullys). In one idiotic move he has turned 5 of the 8 Great Houses against him.

He also did not think the consequence of kidnapping her. Even if she went willingly it is still not something you do in Westeros to a HighLords 14/15 year old daughter. You at least try to contact them and your father to explain what is going on rather than let a civil war start.

He was also a huge dick to his wife. 279 They marry, 280 she gives birth is sick for 6 months after and he gets her pregnant either while she is still sick or just after she gets better in 281. As soon as she gives birth and is sick again he decides to leave her and his new born son and young daughter to find a new baby maker for himself. Luckily he had been flirting with some 13/14 year old while Elia was still pregant and she is still in the Riverlands away from her family.

Not evil, but dumb and a bit of a dick.

[Destroyer of Nations]

It's not like they had divorce in Westoros - by all accounts, Lyanna and Rhaegar were the loves of each others lives. It's kind of a tragedy within itself: they're both betrothed to someone they aren't in love with but run away with each other only to die (Romeo and Juliet). I personally think Rhaegar only left the TOJ to go fight at the Trident in a "death by suicide" ordeal because he knew Lyanna was dying / wouldn't survive childbirth.

No, he did not think he would die because he said to Jaime he was going to make some changes when he came back.

[OldGimletEye]

Agree that we shouldn't make a final judgement about Rhaegar until we have all the facts about him.

[Destroyer of Nations]

Rhaegar's actions and character are very unknown at this point. I could call you an unintelligent, overly judgmental troll, Timjames98, but I don't have all the facts about you to say that with validity. Same with Rhaegar. He is meant to be a mystery to us. You're merely assuming he is bad based on your own interpretation of the few murky facts we have.

Could Rhaegar be a bad person? Sure. But it is not for you to declare as a fact.

I don't agree that he was purely bad but he did start a war. You can say whatever bullshit argument about Brandon and Rickard's death, Aerys II calling for Robert and Ned's heads but his actions with Lyanna - consensual or not - were the root of Robert's Rebellion.

[LordStoneheart]

I don't agree that he was purely bad but he did start a war. You can say whatever bullshit argument about Brandon and Rickard's death, Aerys II calling for Robert and Ned's heads but his actions with Lyanna - consensual or not - were the root of Robert's Rebellion.

You can say it's bullshit, and you'd be wrong. Yandel, who has no reason to be in favor of the Targs and is suggested to be biased towards the Lannister/Baratheon regime, says the casus belli is Aerys II's actions and Jon Arryn's decision. Jon Arryn started the war.

"Many now agree that the true start of Robert's Rebellion began with Lord Arryn's refusal and courageous calling of his banners in the defense of justice."

-TWOIAF.

[Blackfish Tully]

@OP, I agree. I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna created a chain of reactions, every action has a reaction, that lead to the Rebellion.

Actually we have no idea if Elia had any KG with her before Aerys used her as a threat. Rhaegar left and abandoned his wife and children without caring about them.

It's not like he left his wife and children by the side of the road or anything like that . They were in the Red Keep surrounded by Kingsguard, Gold Cloaks and protected by the walls of Kings Landing and the armies of the Iron Throne .

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You can say it's bullshit, and you'd be wrong. Yandel, who has no reason to be in favor of the Targs and is suggested to be biased towards the Lannister/Baratheon regime, says the casus belli is Aerys II's actions and Jon Arryn's decision. Jon Arryn started the war.

I dont think Yandel spoke Latin.

[The Wolves]

Jon Arryn started the war.

I hate him so much.

[draevan13]

Considering how cuckoo-for-coco-puffs Aerys II was, a war to overthrow him was inevitable if he wasn't deposed/assassinated.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It's not like he left his wife and children by the side of the road or anything like that . They were in the Red Keep surrounded by Kingsguard, Gold Cloaks and protected by the walls of Kings Landing and the armies of the Iron Throne .

He left them in Dragonstone either just before Aegon was born or just after. Either way Elia was supposedly sick and he abandoned them to get some.

[LordStoneheart]

I dont think Yandel spoke Latin.

well, he probably speaks High Valyrian.