drhenry Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 So I know the size of the Great Houses armies has been discussed hundreds of times and there are rough numbers that most people agree with. What I found interesting were the armies discussed in the WoIaF. Most people have often thought the Stormlands one of the weaker of the Seven Kingdoms with best estimates being around 30,000 however we now know that Borros Baratheon raised an army of 40,000 men. During Aegon's conquest 55,000 was the largest army ever assembled a majority of which came from the Reach(though the Hightowers and Redwynes did not participate). Torhen Stark was able to raise 30,000 men from the North. Now the North IMO is usually exaggerated in the size of their army however if they were able to raise 30,000 men when the combined might of Casterly Rock and Highgardn raised 55,000 what does that say for the North during the time of A Song of Ice and Fire. One thing to keep in mind is that before the conquest a generation never passed with out at least three kingdoms going to war. Places like the Reach and Riverlands who are surrounded by other kingdoms would loose men more often than the North or Vale who are more isolated. I would love to know what you guys think are the sizes of the army now, my take is Reach-80,000 Westerlands-50,000 Riverlands-45,000 The Vale-45,000 North-40,000 Stormlands-35,000 Dorne-25,000 Crownlands-20,000 Iron Islands-20,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Westerlands 45000 max. Riverlands 45000 minimum North and Vale 45000 each. Stormlands 35000. Dorne 30000 Ironborn 25000 Reach 100000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Westerlands 45-50k Reach 90-100k Riverlands 35-40k Stormlands 35k Dorne 25-30k The Iron Islands 25-30k The North 45-50k The Vale 40-45k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittanian Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Most people have often thought the Stormlands one of the weaker of the Seven Kingdoms with best estimates being around 30,000 however we now know that Borros Baratheon raised an army of 40,000 men. Which chapter are the 40,000 mentioned in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Westerlands 45000 max. Riverlands 45000 minimum North and Vale 45000 each. Stormlands 35000. Dorne 30000 Ironborn 25000 Reach 100000 Actually, I would revise my earlier estimate. The World Book says the Stormlands are thinly populated compared to the Westerlands. Well, the Stormlands and Westerlands are pretty similar in size. So for the difference in population density to be in any way noticeable to a medieval maester one would expect that the Westerlands should have a population density at least 50% greater than that of the Stormlands. I mean, surely they're not really going to notice if the Stormlands have 10 people per square mile while the Westerlands have 12 or 13. I would say you would need at least a 50% difference in population density for it to be noteworthy. That means that if they are able to raise the same troop ratio from their respective populations, then the Westerlands should have at least 50% more men than that Stormlands. So I would drop the Stormlands down to 30k and leave the Westerlands at 45k. That would in turn force me to drop Dorne to around 25k, as we know they have a lower population than the Stormlands. So my new list is North, Vale, Riverlands, West - 45k each Stormlands 30k Dorne - 25k I guess that places the Ironborn at the same level as Dorne, which feels intuitively wrong to me, but which can be justified by the Ironborn raising a much larger percentage of their total population to war than any mainland kingdom can. That then still leaves Dorne with 2 or 3 times the Ironborn population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Danyel Mortimer Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 the ironborn probably do field as many men as Dorne but they can't replace them if they are lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I know "army" is listed in the topic title, but is this taking into account for the numbers for a given region's fleet? It takes quite a few oarsmen to move boats. Westerlands 45-50k Reach 80-100k Riverlands 35-40k Stormlands 30-35k Dorne 25k The Iron Islands 25k The North 45-50k The Vale 40-45k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhenry Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 Which chapter are the 40,000 mentioned in? If I remember correctly they say the lads have a host of 4,000 men and Borros Baratheon outnumbered them ten to one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittanian Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 If I remember correctly they say the lads have a host of 4,000 men and Borros Baratheon outnumbered them ten to one. An old version of the wiki's "Battle of the Kingsroad" mentioned those numbers, but they were removed since no source was provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 People constantly underrate the Riverlands when it's quite large and among the most densely populated of Westeros, it's just usually not united. I like FNR's list, the Riverlands can only be outdone by the Reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I know "army" is listed in the topic title, but is this taking into account for the numbers for a given region's fleet? It takes quite a few oarsmen to move boats. The Iron Islands numbers are quite special. We don't know the exact numbers of ships and longships the IB have. The Iron Fleet = 100 longships, as strong and fast as smallr war galleys. I'd say the Iron Fleet requires between 10k and 15k. Then, going for the 500-600 longships the rest of the IB must have, 30 men each (average), it gives you between 15k and 18k. This sums up between 25k and 33k. I'd probably say the numbers are closer to 30,000 than 25,000, but I'm usually conservative regarding IB resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Actually, I would revise my earlier estimate. The World Book says the Stormlands are thinly populated compared to the Westerlands. Well, the Stormlands and Westerlands are pretty similar in size. So for the difference in population density to be in any way noticeable to a medieval maester one would expect that the Westerlands should have a population density at least 50% greater than that of the Stormlands. I mean, surely they're not really going to notice if the Stormlands have 10 people per square mile while the Westerlands have 12 or 13. I would say you would need at least a 50% difference in population density for it to be noteworthy. That means that if they are able to raise the same troop ratio from their respective populations, then the Westerlands should have at least 50% more men than that Stormlands. So I would drop the Stormlands down to 30k and leave the Westerlands at 45k. That would in turn force me to drop Dorne to around 25k, as we know they have a lower population than the Stormlands. So my new list is North, Vale, Riverlands, West - 45k each Stormlands 30k Dorne - 25k I guess that places the Ironborn at the same level as Dorne, which feels intuitively wrong to me, but which can be justified by the Ironborn raising a much larger percentage of their total population to war than any mainland kingdom can. That then still leaves Dorne with 2 or 3 times the Ironborn population. If oarsmen and reavers can serve as fishermen during times were raiding isn't possible then they could theoretically put up to 10% of their population on the offensive, however they would have to be fighting a profitable war otherwise it would be a drain on their resources. So the Iron Islands could man their fleets from a population of 400,000 or so, whereas Dorne might need 2,500,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques the Japer Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Which begs the question - how could the Iron Islands ever muster enough men to carve out those kingdoms in the Green Lands they keep referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Which begs the question - how could the Iron Islands ever muster enough men to carve out those kingdoms in the Green Lands they keep referring to? In that times Riverlands were divided, some lords supported their own kings, others Durrandon Kings. Ironborn were united... Also, if the Iron Isles are bigger than England+Scotland+Ireland+Wales combined.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 What is most interesting about these numbers is the way in which the WotFK shifted the balance of power on the map. If the Reach was the strongest house in the realm with 80-100k, and the traditional hegemon on the region going back thousands of years, then look what Tywin was able to accomplish in a few short years through warfare, treaty and marriage: The Westerlands, 45-50 The Riverlands, 35-45 The North, 40-50 Plus the Crownlands by virtue of his grandson, the king, 20 And the Stormlands, again through the king, 35 This was why he was so anxious for Tyrion to father a child on Sansa. That child would legally be heir to Winterfell, which would cement his hold on the region more strongly than the Bolton alliance. In the end, Tywin could potentially raise 175 to 200k if push ever came to shove against Highgarden. And the two have an ill-defined border stretching hundreds of leagues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Which begs the question - how could the Iron Islands ever muster enough men to carve out those kingdoms in the Green Lands they keep referring to? No idea, I've heard most of the justifications and I am still not convinced any Ironborn comparable to what we see today could conquer a riverlands comparable to what we see today. Their success in the age of heroes could be easily explained because they are they only ones with decent ships and since they have a good supply of tin they could theoretically make more armour and weapons the they mainland first men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.