AegonFan322 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 All right, for the sake of my own ego, I am going to offer my own interpretation of why the Others came into existence. My evidence will be a mixture of evidence from the Show and from the Books, although I personally believe the show and books will end in very different ways.The ultimate Question is: When did the Others come into existence? The most common theory is that they are magical beings that evolved in Westeros, in a manner akin to Giants and the Children of the Forest. However, I want to point out important traits of the Others:1. They possess certain magical powers, namely raising the dead, and they are able to break metal weapons.2. Their only weakness is obsidian, which is associated with fire, but more importantly, the main weapon of the Children of the Forest.3. The Others also seem to require human children to reproduce. In the show, it is explicitly confirmed that the Others turn Craster's sons into Others, while the books merely imply it. The only other explanation for the sacrifices is that human children are fed to the wights (Old Nan's tale), but there are too many wights to live on human children taken as sacrifices. More importantly, we would have seen Others take human children captive, if only to feed them to the wights.These traits lead us to some very important conclusions:1. All metal weapons against them are useless, and any armies sent against them they simply raise as wights.2. The Children of the Forest could have easily fought them off.3. This is the most important point: The Others need humans to reproduce. This means they could not have come into existence before humans came to Westeros.What is my point? Well, what group needed to fight off the humans, and was being overwhelmed by their numbers and metal weapons? The Children of the Forest. They could have created the Others to fight off humanity. It is also interesting that this would explain how, in Martin's world, without black and white worldviews, the Others can exist. Inhuman demons that want to kill all humans just because? Unlikely. Inhuman ice demons that were the last, desperate gambit of a dying race about to be overrun? Possible.This leads to why the White Walkers are coming back now. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with dragons, because until very recently, the Others and Dragons were not contemporaries. As far as we know, no dragons fought in the Long Night. And the Night's Watch had no noticeable problems during Aegon's Conquest, not even a King-Beyond-the-Wall. So what changed in thousands of years? What massive earthshaking event could cause the Children of the Forest to panic, desperately raising an army of the dead?A Sept was built in Winterfell, and the Lord of Winterfell took an Andal maiden for his wife.That may sound like a stupid idea, but that is the only monumental change the Children could care about. Dragons died over two hundred years ago, too long for the White Walkers to be responding to it. They have no established ties to House Targaryen. So what change could scare the Children? The Andals gaining a foothold in the North. I know that Catelyn marrying Ned seems like such a mundane thing, but think of the implications. In the books, we know that Sansa at least worshipped the Seven, and Bran may have as well before the accident. He wanted to be a Knight before he fell, which by definition is only for worshippers of the Seven. And after his accident, Ned Stark mentioned Bran might become High Septon. Well, does the High Septon worship the Seven? Is the Pope Catholic? My point is that the North was slowly becoming Andalized. The Children might have forseen that the last region south of the Wall to worship the Old Gods was slowly being lost to the Seven. This is not a crazy conspiracy theory. According to the World of Ice and Fire, that is exactly how the Andals took over the Reach, the Westerlands, and the Stormlands. Therefore, it is not that crazy to think the Children foresaw that in the Future, Ned Stark's marriage to Catelyn would bring about the Conversion of the North. Ironically, if the Children are revealed to be behind the Long Night, this will mean that the Northern Lords may convert to the Seven in disgust, ironically fulfilling the Childrens' Prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none-for-joffrey Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 i think your children/others part has some merit i think your sept in winterfell part is bollocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 This would also explain why the Starks apparently never married outside of the North - it may be that it's not just a Stark that needs to be in Winterfell to keep the Others at bay, it may be that the Stark needs to be mostly First Men blood. The timing is right, too. But does Catelyn REALLY need to be blamed for yet more bad things happening to Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegonFan322 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 This would also explain why the Starks apparently never married outside of the North - it may be that it's not just a Stark that needs to be in Winterfell to keep the Others at bay, it may be that the Stark needs to be mostly First Men blood. The timing is right, too. But does Catelyn REALLY need to be blamed for yet more bad things happening to Westeros? Well, technically this is not Catelyn's fault. It is Hoster Tully's for agreeing to have his daughter marry the Lord of Winterfell. I just noticed that the White Walkers come back coincidentally after the Last Kingdom of the First Men starts to become much more tied to the South. It is possible that the White Walkers are actually the Last Resort of the Children. (Note that for several books they have stayed North of the Wall.) The first few contingency plans were, in this order:1. Gather an Army of Wildlings to conquer the North in the Name of the Old Gods.2. Encourage the North to split off from the South by creating a feud between Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon.3. Later, when Robb Stark rebels, have him declare himself King in the North. Theoretically, his Kingdom would be cut off from the South. He would be married to a Riverlander, but the Children would only have to worry about the Riverlands.4. Help the Boltons take over. Notice that for all their faults, the Boltons have no ties to the Faith of the Seven. Roose has built no Sept, and he expects Ramsay to take over after him, not Walda's children.Only after these plans fail will the Children let the Others loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 We've already had Stark lords married to Manderly women who worship the Seven (presumably), and Beron Stark's wife Lorra Royce was from a family that worshipped the Seven. The Royces are a First Men house, but so are the Tullys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Three Whores Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I just want to point out that the Others weren't exclusive to Westeros, even though that seems to be the only place they remain. Many major civilizations including the Rhoyne to Asshai had legends about the Long Night and the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 The reasoning is good, but single minded. The Other attacks only began what 2-3 years ago? Ned and Cat were married 15 years previous. I'm sure the sept was built for her shortly after making Winterfell her home. Something is happening NOW to make the Others come back. To make the Dragons come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I kinda agree but not with the idea of the sept. But something similar.My theory is that a Stark always needs to make a sort of ritual every year to keep the Others at bay and this is something only the Stark in charge is meant to make. Now, Rickard was supposed to tell Brandon (or maybe he told him) and as they both died, Ned was never given the info, so, he never did his duty and the Others returned to the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegonFan322 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 We've already had Stark lords married to Manderly women who worship the Seven (presumably), and Beron Stark's wife Lorra Royce was from a family that worshipped the Seven. The Royces are a First Men house, but so are the Tullys.Well, we have no evidence that Lord Stark married any Manderlys. More importantly, the point is that a Sept was built by Ned so Cat could worship there, and the Stark children were raised with the faith. By doing this, Ned was opening up Winterfell to Andal influence. This was not seen before among Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegonFan322 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 The reasoning is good, but single minded. The Other attacks only began what 2-3 years ago? Ned and Cat were married 15 years previous. I'm sure the sept was built for her shortly after making Winterfell her home. Something is happening NOW to make the Others come back. To make the Dragons come back. Well, we know that Mance Rayder managed to bring the Wildlings together, mainly under a campaign slogan of "the Others are totally going to kill us, everybody." Considering how the Wildlings are notoriously hard to keep together, this probably took years. More importantly, Craster has been giving boys to the White Walkers from the Beginning. (Note that Craster has no sons. If the tradition of handing over boys had begun 2-3 years ago, there would be older sons of Craster helping out.) This means that the Others were rising at least at the time of Robert's Rebellion. I would suspect this was because the Children foresaw some disaster early on. This could have been Brandon being betrothed to Catelyn, which was 2 years beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegonFan322 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I just want to point out that the Others weren't exclusive to Westeros, even though that seems to be the only place they remain. Many major civilizations including the Rhoyne to Asshai had legends about the Long Night and the Others.They have legends about the Long Night, but not the Others. There are no mentions in other cultures of any creatures like the Others. The creatures that do get mentioned are the Children of the Forest. (The Ifequevron of Northern Essos.) My personal theory is that the Children here tried to use dragons against humanity, but they failed. The only thing they caused was that certain humans learned their secrets, including their magic and how to tame the dragons. And thus the Valyrians arose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular John Umber Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I kinda agree but not with the idea of the sept. But something similar.My theory is that a Stark always needs to make a sort of ritual every year to keep the Others at bay and this is something only the Stark in charge is meant to make. Now, Rickard was supposed to tell Brandon (or maybe he told him) and as they both died, Ned was never given the info, so, he never did his duty and the Others returned to the North. Spitballing, but could the whole 'Kill the father and then the son' thing be linked to destroying the passing-down-of-knowledge link? And by destroying that link, somehow a dragon can be awoken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 The Starks have had brides from the South before* (Royces) and and also Northern worshippers of the Seven (Manderlys).Also, several other Houses in the North have probably intermarried with the South from time to time, even though it's not common.There are also Knights that don't worhsip the Seven. Although knighthood is tied to Andal culture, the Andal religion is not required. There are some knights in the North (not just Manderlys). Any knight can grant knighthood.*Blackwoods too but they worship the Old Gods, so they don't count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 'The Children of the Forest creating the Others' theory has merit. They certainly had the motivation, and it fits together with how the Last Hero was able to stop the Others by allying with the Children. But we have no reason to believe that they had the means.The Children have exhibited many magical powers, but there has been zero evidence of them being able to create new species. But there have been instances of humans doing genetic experiments. My theory is that whoever created the Valyrians also created the Others. And just as Valyrians are humans combined with dragon genes, the Others are humans combined with ice dragon genes. This would answer the question of means, but then there's the glaring hole of motivation. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 double Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 'The Children of the Forest creating the Others' theory has merit. They certainly had the motivation, and it fits together with how the Last Hero was able to stop the Others by allying with the Children. But we have no reason to believe that they had the means.The Children have exhibited many magical powers, but there has been zero evidence of them being able to create new species. But there have been instances of humans doing genetic experiments. My theory is that whoever created the Targaryens also created the Others. And just as Targaryens are humans combined with dragon genes, the Others are humans combined with ice dragon genes. This would answer the question of means, but then there's the glaring hole of motivation. Who knows.The Targaryens have bright, flaming red eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Well, we have no evidence that Lord Stark married any Manderlys.Myriame Manderly, wife of Lord Rodwell Stark.Lord Cregan's heir Rickon was also married to a Manderly, though he died before he could inherit. It stands to reason those aren't the only Manderly matches, all things being equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 The Targaryens have bright, flaming red eyes?No, but they do have the blood of the dragon, as evidenced by the scaly, winged monstrosities they occasionally bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Stark Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I kinda agree but not with the idea of the sept. But something similar.My theory is that a Stark always needs to make a sort of ritual every year to keep the Others at bay and this is something only the Stark in charge is meant to make. Now, Rickard was supposed to tell Brandon (or maybe he told him) and as they both died, Ned was never given the info, so, he never did his duty and the Others returned to the North.I think it does have something to do with the fact that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, I'm just not certain what specifically it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I kinda agree but not with the idea of the sept. But something similar.My theory is that a Stark always needs to make a sort of ritual every year to keep the Others at bay and this is something only the Stark in charge is meant to make. Now, Rickard was supposed to tell Brandon (or maybe he told him) and as they both died, Ned was never given the info, so, he never did his duty and the Others returned to the North.I gotta disagree with this one: If that was the case theres no way it'd be a big secret, atleast every Stark would be aware of it. Why risk losing that vital info so easily? It is a medieval society, healthcare is not great it would be very easy to lose a Lord and his heir even without a Mad King.Also Ned doesn't believe in Others, so even if he didn't know about this ritual his Father would make sure he knew they were a potential threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.