Joe Abercrombie’s Before They Are Hanged

[Jaxom 1974]

Finished book 2 last night.

First impressions: Joe's taken what he started in book one and ramped it up a notch. I now have some very high expectations for book three. From what I've sensed, without reading book three threads, he's delivered. I'm really looking forward to it.

The tiniest little nit I had was that book two felt, in the end, just like a second installment. Plenty of build up, but we can't have resolution yet, otherwise why have the third book of a trilogy?

My only other concern was the entire sequence of Glotka in this one. His arc was so much fun to read, better than the first, but it didn't really feel as though there was an overall point. Go to the doomed city, try to solve a mystery, get the city set up for invasion, actually resist the unresistable, then slink off and let it fall. Oh I know there's going to be a reason and it'll fit in somehow in the big picture, but it still felt a little out of place at times. Not every story needs to have a happy ending, I know. At the same time, it felt like that bit was left just hanging there...

And I type all of this without reading the whole thread, so if some of this has been brought up and discussed before: oops.

[Tom the Merciful]

I finally laid my hands on this one and it's just amazing. It has really been a long time since every POV chapter was so interesting and I'm still only in the first half.

Especially I like the tempo. Not one word in the book (so far) is a waste. Great, great writing. Reminds me of GRRM a lot in some spots. However, having a lot less characters is a wise thing. After all, he managed to keep it a trilogy.

Great work, Joe!

[Happy Ent]

Finished yesterday.

I enjoyed this, but don't find it great.

First, from the arboreal perspective, this book is even worse than the first. There are no trees in it at all, let alone sentient ones. The only place where a plant plays a central role is when a tree defends the left flank of General Kroy's army against an onslaught of Shanka. But the description is clichéd and stereotypical: the tree is just lying there, having all the (male) protagonists crawling over it. I had hoped fantasy had progressed beyond this point of casting trunks is positions of defensive support.

What's worse, the only sympathetically named character dies a few pages after, to be replaced by a character named after a species of animal famous for pissing on trees. Disgusting.

In general: What's good about the book has been said (and gushed over) for quite some posts on this thread. I largely agree. Memorable and likeable but nontrivial characters, good dialogue. Break-neck pacing.

Here's what I didn't like: The inner monologue of Glotka became repetitive. Yes, we understood that you're cynical. I felt force-fed. A similar complaint about Jezal's reflections. I don't need the author to actually tell me in so many, many words that Jezal now views his former behaviour with distaste. I understand how these characters think, and don't need to be told with so much explicitness.

Also, while I do like the "strong characters", sometimes they're simply too unsubtle. This is especially true for much of the supporting cast. Some of the scenes involving Crown Prince Ladisla felt like something taken out of Asterix. I think less would be more.

The world still has not come alive for me. I can't put my finger on why that is so. Feels like running around in Legend of Zelda or something like that.

[The Wedge]

Two moments had me smiling, just for the homage value of them:

SPOILER: Spoliers

2. Gettysburg/The Killer Angels homage: Threetrees and Shiver's Carls holding the extreme left of the Union line!, they are on a hill, I suppose that it's little and round, they build some defenses using some fallen trees, they are supposed to be in the safest part of the line only that it's not. Then of course Threetrees orders a charge down the hill in the most desperate and critical moment, a charge that saves the day

This is a great catch, especially in light of Joe's blog post last week.

I love when people catch this kind of thing and share. Thanks Agulla!

What's worse, the only sympathetically named character dies a few pages after, to be replaced by a character named after a species of animal famous for pissing on trees. Disgusting.

I mean.... Sorry about that, Ent.

BTW, I liked the book, but agree with Jaxom that it just seemed to end without much of a closure or feeling that it was the end of a book. The First Law will feel like a nice 1,000 page novel once all three installments can be stitched together into an omnibus.

[EHK for Darwin]

Hmmm...forgot there was a thread for book two. I posted my overly bloated review in the book 3 nonspoiler thread. Guess I'll repost it here.

Second book is a HUGE improvement over the first. I read it in 2 or 3 sittings, something I haven't done with a book in quite a while.

Improvements: Things happened. Characters developed and story moved forward.

Still need to fix: Annoying caricature characters. Not near as many of them, but still too many. I understand that this is a land where birth conveys upon you privileges and responsibilities that aren't necessarily deserved. But that's no reason for half the characters to be drooling imbeciles. Pampered prince? Ok, I'll grant you that even if it was a bit over the top. But the rival generals? I can understand professional rivalry and personal pettiness leading to a clash of heads that might hurt the army. But they're portrayed as nothing less than children. Completely irrational with only the slightest grip on reality. I felt like I was reading the Egwene 'Tower in Exile' scenes (fight over the R Aes Sedai and the L one that leads to Egwene being elected/attempts to turn into a pawn) with the repeated rambling idiocy of the two rivals. Is it too hard to portray people at that high level of responsibility with an ounce of sense? Its like you're either a down to earth, competent and intelligent everyman who treats people fairly and based on actual merit or you're an oblivious, incomprehensibly stupid snob. A little in between here would be nice.

In either case, they were the worst examples. And considering the first book had dozens of examples about as bad, I consider that a major improvement. Not sure what to think about the Deus Exing bank, but that's entirely up to how its developed in the third book. Its definitely got me curious.

Maybe I'm one of those world-building nuts, but I'd love a map. I had to recreate the continent again and again in my head to no avail once I gathered 'oh, so they're moving West...shit, that screws up my mental placement of Angland'. Probably partially my fault for trying to attach real world cultures and geography to various locations. And considering how bad most fantasy maps are, perhaps its for the best if its left to the imagination.

Bayez is a more interesting character now that he's no longer the affable, all-powerful wizard. Manipulative, tempermental schemer is much more interesting for a super-mage. I've got a pretty solid mental picture of the black chick. And she's hot. (even with scars) I hope noone tries to dispel this picture with bad fan/cover-art.

Logen's repeated attempts to build comradery with the Fellowship were interesting sequences. I like the mental process that goes into trying to create a cohesive group. The fencer's 'incident' was one of the best things they could have possibly done to the character. I'll be quite interested to see how its developed when he returns to the world. Of course they lay the foreshadowing pretty heavily that he will be elected king, which I have no problem with storywise if it does occur, so long as there's a sufficient foundation for it to occur and the process is interesting enough.

Infodumping was a bit of an issue. Between the two books we appeared to have about 3-4 semi-overlapping 'origin of the conflict' stories and they'd get a bit confused at times. (first gods kids faught, than the disciples of gods kids killed a few gods, than the disciples fought eachother, etc) I'd also like a better frame of reference on the timeline. (world-building tendencies again) I mean demons ruling the world sounds like this could potentially stretch back tens of thousands of years, because if its any sooner, one would think there might be some more stories on it beyond those of the immortal wizards. But the various ruins they walk through, even those that aren't artificially (dead zone) preserved often seem like they're at most a thousand or two years old.

Anyway, I like resolutions with a twist and this book had enough of them. And I'm even content with resolutions that all but invalidate a third of the book as meaningless, largely because I liked the characters. For the future of the series though, I think the Fencer kid should be kept permanently away from Ardee because he becomes an insufferable child character when around her. In either case, a bit too much travelogue. Even if all (but one) of the most interesting characters in the series were there.

Glotka's moral dilemmas are some of the best things going in the series. Make the devil's bargain or let the city (most likely) fall without a fight. Destroy any and all chance at peace or obey the terms of that bargain (and the likely wishes of his superiors who eagerly wanted the 'prince' matter closed)

Alot of questions for the third book. I generally like more mundane answers, explanations, and resolutions. Which was why I was extremely interested in the Emperor's (rather than the prophet's) envoy and the possibilities that raised. Its quite clear that alot of this conflict is manufactured by sinister, mystical forces but I hope there's more than just that. And that they won't always play the motivating or decisive factor in how events turn out. The emperor's envoy gave us a glimpse of that possibility and I'd like to hope that some of the other rival leaders aren't simple pawns. (or if they are, that they recognize and to some extent rebel against that fact) I have no problem with scheming, powerful, and manipulative characters. But I'm less of a fan of omnipotent puppetmasters. And the bankers have the potential to turn into that. Hope they don't.

[Sophelia]

Happy Ent's review made me laugh

Just thought I'd put down my thoughts on BTAH before I forget (I've just started reading LAoK).

As people might remember I had quite a few criticisms of TBI, though like most people I did enjoy the Glotka chapters a lot. People had suggested that my complaints (especially about the characters) would be addressed in the next book, which would subvert the cliches and give me some pleasant surprises.

Well, I did find that the second book was much better in terms of plot. That is, things did start happening and about half way through the book I realised that I was actually reading faster because I wanted to know what happened next. The 'twist' of the search for the stone at the edge of the world thingy really didn't impact on me though. That 'quest' was set up at the end of the first book and had seemed a pointless diversion at that time. During BTAH I still had little idea what the quest would actually achieve, so I wasn't invested in them finding the thing, just wanted them to return to where the rest of the characters were so the story could continue. So when they turned back without achieving their goal I could see the characters were a bit disappointed but for me it was just *shrug*.

Maybe I'm dense, but I still can't see much evidence of character development. We do learn a bit more about some of the characters, and Jezal moderates his attitudes so as to be slightly less annoying, but without his conceited laziness thing, it's difficult to see what character he has at all. He still doesn't engage my sympathies and as far as I'm concerned he's a throwaway character long overdue to be killed off .

As for the others, we are reminded that Logen didn't get his name for nothing (he has an uncontrollable berserker side), Ferro continues to smoulder for revenge, Bayez continues to be mysterious and slightly sinister, West alternates between lost soul (on a personal level) and realistic cynic (on a military/political level), the Northmen continue their guerilla warfare in their men-of-the-earth kind of way (I am least engaged by these characters). The few female characters seem to be there purely for the effects they have on the males, and I was disappointed that they seemed to have to be rescued (or fail to be rescued) by the males, even when their characters seemed to suggest they might be capable of more self-determination. Longfoot and Quai were along for the ride without their purpose in the plot being clear. They have not yet acquired any character for me (the talkative one versus the quiet one). I get the impression Quai has been taken over by evil in some way and will most likely betray Bayez.

The Glotka chapters continued to be my favourite ones to read. I enjoyed the scheming and manipulating, and find this more interesting to read about than battle scenes (yes, war is horrible, I got the point, I don't need to be beaten about the head with it). I do agree with people who feel the Glotka chapters did get a bit sameish: you can have too much of a good thing. I was disappointed to find out the character has a weakness when it comes to women. I found the extent to which he was affected by a person's sex to be unprofessional. I guess I like equal opportunity torturers His overt sexism annoyed me and I felt it weakened the character (it's not that Glotka didn't already have his human side under the ruthlessness).

[i agree with people who said some of the characters/events seem cartoonish. It's implausible that Logen continues to survive so many fights, as well.]

On the positive side, I do continue to admire the way the point of view chapters are written in such distinctive styles, appropriate to the characters. The dialogue is well-differentiated and it's possible to guess whose chapters are whose just from the writing style.

Now I'll have to see if LAoK will make me eat my words...

[lessthanluke]

Amazon still hasn't posted my LAoK!!!

Ordered it in the middle of march!

[Jaxom 1974]

In either case, they were the worst examples. And considering the first book had dozens of examples about as bad, I consider that a major improvement. Not sure what to think about the Deus Exing bank, but that's entirely up to how its developed in the third book. Its definitely got me curious.

Is it really a Deus Ex if we don't know the actual resolution of the story...?

[post menopausal rhino]

Amazon still hasn't posted my LAoK!!!

Ordered it in the middle of march!

Really? I ordered mine on Friday and it arrived yesterday so it's not like they are out of stock or anything, and Wales isn't THAT far away from London. Maybe you should start complaining loudly!

[lessthanluke]

Really? I ordered mine on Friday and it arrived yesterday so it's not like they are out of stock or anything, and Wales isn't THAT far away from London. Maybe you should start complaining loudly!

Yes really lol. I ued the free delivery thing but still should be here by now. I ordered the harback, what about you? I am gonna give it a few days and then I will be complaining loudly. The other book I ordered at the same time got here in a like a week.

[Hereward]

As Wales doesn't exist, I think you should count yourself lucky if you get any deliveries at all.

[Tom the Merciful]

Finished it. Liked it very much.

I do understand some criticism posted here (especially Happy Ent's), but I must say that I read it immediately after James Clemens' Hinterland and to me, it felt grand. Maybe everybody should read something bad before starting something you have great expectations for.

Last Argument of Kings is looking at me. Have to go.

Edit:

Check Joe's blog for the latest entry on critics and "middle-book syndrome". It's hilarious.

[post menopausal rhino]

Yes really lol. I ued the free delivery thing but still should be here by now. I ordered the harback, what about you? I am gonna give it a few days and then I will be complaining loudly. The other book I ordered at the same time got here in a like a week.

Hardback?!! Good Lord, I am a penniless widow (well, not really a widow, but you have to have dreams, you know).

Hereward: North Wales may not exist, but South Wales sits there malevolently harbouring a hoard of my rellys who mutter about me constantly while pointedly ignoring me (until they want something)

Liked TBI, loved BTAH, now off to immerse myself in LAOK

[BigFatCoward]

only just got around to reading the series, really enjoying it. however i am having massive problems with my kindle formatting for book 2, anybody else have this? huge spaces in the text everywhere for no apparent reason.

[Rody]

Sorry to revive the topic but when I search in the forum for Before They Are Hanged, this came up first.

Ok, so I finished the book right now, and I must say that conclusion on the island, was not what I was hoping for. They traveled such a long way (btw I love every thing on the Old Empire, all the description very vivid) and voila, they get there and it was NOTHING!

I am starting LAoK right now.

[Errant Bard]

they get there and it was NOTHING!

Just saying but you should expect such things from Abercrombie... What, did you expect that he would have the McGuffin to "save the empire" exist at all?

Not that it existing is a good thing at all

Tangentially, I can't agree with the idea that the descriptions in BTAH are anything more than lifeless and clunky, they may be the worse point of the book; Joe would be more awesome if he managed to evoke a more lifelike setting for his characters to evolve in instead of that.