Jump to content


Photo

[BOOK SPOILERS] EP104 Discussion, Take Two


  • Please log in to reply
126 replies to this topic

#81 IheartTesla

IheartTesla

    I hate Edison

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,569 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:12 AM

I don't see what the complaints about the crowd are - I thought the overhead shot established that there were lots of people there. Sure, where the highborn people are there's not a ton, but I took that as being like a luxury box /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


One of the first shots of the tourney that I recall was a wideshot and it showed the crowds about 3 deep. I plan to rewatch the episode tonight with a friend who hasn't read the books, so I'll get her opinion on the episode/tourney and see if my memory was correct as well. I wish they hadn't done that shot or just CGI'd in a thousand people.

I don't know how background is done on TV shows, but I was also thinking of the 40000 strong Dothraki horde. You couldn't hear a damn thing in the background when they show Dany stopping, and I'm sure 40000 hooves on the ground would make an awful lot of noise.

But these are minor nitpicks in a mostly enjoyable TV experience.

#82 Été

Été

    Dreaming of Summer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,398 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 09:21 AM

There are some stills of the tourney shoot in which the poster noted what looked like green screen behind the crowd, which would suggest a CGI crowd has at least been considered.

#83 KarentheUnicorn

KarentheUnicorn

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 14 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 09:44 AM

There's no logic in having the low end knights fight other low end knights and force the good ones to face each other and thus have a far harder road to reach the final.



Okay maybe you're misuderstanding me.

What I meant was, the lower end knights would face qualifications against each other, getting rid of the really bad people and thus keeping the best out of the 'worst' group to face people like Gregor. Does that make more sense?

Doesn't mean they'd win against Gregor, it would be more like a ladder or success you'd have to go through to get to the upper ranks in the tournament. It means you start out at the low end of the totum poll and work your way through all the garbage to get to the top.


What I was thinking is it would be like a heat race for sprint cars. Heat races are for those who are the slowest. In a heat race which happens before the main events they'll take a certain number of cars out of each heat race and put them up against the 'best' in the main events because they were the fastest and best in the heat race.

So as far as explaining sports to me, I'm more thinking of it in terms of a car race where you'd take the best out of the worst and they'd compete against the big dogs (so to speak).

So as sporting events goe I was more wondering, do they have some kind of drawing to see WHO fights people like Gregor OR did Sir Huge actually go through some already 'worse' knights to get to fight Gregor?

It's more like I'm questioning how Huge got to fight Gregor right away, was that his first fight? Or did he already beat some lower guys. OR is it just luck of some draw that matches one guy against the other.

#84 Tywin's bastard

Tywin's bastard

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 771 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:05 AM

Okay maybe you're misuderstanding me.

What I meant was, the lower end knights would face qualifications against each other, getting rid of the really bad people and thus keeping the best out of the 'worst' group to face people like Gregor. Does that make more sense?

Doesn't mean they'd win against Gregor, it would be more like a ladder or success you'd have to go through to get to the upper ranks in the tournament. It means you start out at the low end of the totum poll and work your way through all the garbage to get to the top.


What I was thinking is it would be like a heat race for sprint cars. Heat races are for those who are the slowest. In a heat race which happens before the main events they'll take a certain number of cars out of each heat race and put them up against the 'best' in the main events because they were the fastest and best in the heat race.

So as far as explaining sports to me, I'm more thinking of it in terms of a car race where you'd take the best out of the worst and they'd compete against the big dogs (so to speak).

So as sporting events goe I was more wondering, do they have some kind of drawing to see WHO fights people like Gregor OR did Sir Huge actually go through some already 'worse' knights to get to fight Gregor?

It's more like I'm questioning how Huge got to fight Gregor right away, was that his first fight? Or did he already beat some lower guys. OR is it just luck of some draw that matches one guy against the other.

Ok, then I understand what you meant and that's certainly a valid way to do it. I don't think they did it like that though and I think Hugh met Gregor in the first tilt. Still we don't know exactly how it's done so I guess everyone can make up their own mind to some extent.

#85 Tywin's bastard

Tywin's bastard

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 771 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:15 AM

One of the first shots of the tourney that I recall was a wideshot and it showed the crowds about 3 deep. I plan to rewatch the episode tonight with a friend who hasn't read the books, so I'll get her opinion on the episode/tourney and see if my memory was correct as well. I wish they hadn't done that shot or just CGI'd in a thousand people.

I don't know how background is done on TV shows, but I was also thinking of the 40000 strong Dothraki horde. You couldn't hear a damn thing in the background when they show Dany stopping, and I'm sure 40000 hooves on the ground would make an awful lot of noise.

But these are minor nitpicks in a mostly enjoyable TV experience.

The wide shot has the crowd stand in rows roughly 7-8 deep (varies a bit as they aren't standing in perfect rows). There certainly isn't a crowd of thousands but I'd say that there is probably more than 700 people in the shot, which I consider to be pretty impressive without CGI. Of course a CGI crowd would have made it incredibly massive though.

As for the 40 000 strong horde, they are many but they seem to travel in a fairly narrow column so most of the people would be pretty far away from her, so it doesn't have to be that bad.

#86 Volderon

Volderon

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 218 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:25 AM

I actually didn't like Sam in the books but in this episode I really resonated with his character. I actually like him, I liked him and Jon and their conversations and you can tell they're going to be great friends.

Great acting!

#87 FilliamHMuffman

FilliamHMuffman

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:49 AM

It was a decent episode, better than last week, but still struggled translating the book into a visual medium. Exposition should only be used to introduce back-story that is relevant to the plot that can't be conveyed easily in a dramatic way. Exposition was justified for the story of the Clegane brothers and to explain Theon's status at Winterfell, although for the latter, the exchange between Tyrion and Theon was sufficient and the scene between Jaime and Jory redundant.

The rest should have been cut. Viewers who want to delve into the series lore should pick up the books. TV is a poor medium for conveying that kind of information. This episode needed more tournament spectacle and less characters reminiscing about the past. Yes, yes, I know, the budget. But, as with the lack of direwolves, I as a viewer just want to be entertained, and I can appreciate why the creators have made certain choices while still being somewhat disappointed with the result.

Edited by FilliamHMuffman, 12 May 2011 - 11:52 AM.


#88 FilliamHMuffman

FilliamHMuffman

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:10 PM

I also got the impression that Gregor just killed Hugh because he could, although that's an obvious conclusion as that's what the Hound says. I think the probability of it being an intentional killing of a suspect is the same in the book and on the show, which is slim since Gregor takes orders from Tywin, and probably tells almost anyone else to shove it (or worse if they aren't important enough) if they try to order him. The show can of course give a different perspective on Gregor, but it hasn't yet.

There's always a good point to make the audience wonder if it was ordered or not though.


It feels too convenient to simply be a coincidence. But if Gregor knew Ser Hugh was suspected in a Lannister plot to murder Jon Arryn, it's plausible he took the initiative to eliminate him and win favor from his lord without having been ordered to kill him by anyone.

Edited by FilliamHMuffman, 12 May 2011 - 12:54 PM.


#89 Tyrion Lannister

Tyrion Lannister

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 437 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:24 PM

The tournament cost a fortune because of the purse, not the tourney itself - at least that's how the tv show explains it (would need to reference the book for how it is conveyed there).

I just read this chapter in the book last night:

The purse total adds up to 90,000 gold, and Littlefinger immediately starts talking about all of the additional expenses they'll have to figure in. A couple of paragraphs later, he says "We owe Lord Tywin three million dragons at present, what matter another hundred thousand?" So, at least according to Littlefinger's initial estimates, the purse is definitely the primary reason the tourney was so expensive.

Edited by Tyrion Lannister, 12 May 2011 - 12:26 PM.


#90 Abaddon

Abaddon

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,024 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:34 PM

There are some stills of the tourney shoot in which the poster noted what looked like green screen behind the crowd, which would suggest a CGI crowd has at least been considered.

Pretty sure one of the cast being interviewed or on twitter or something said it was just grass. Lord knows where that cropped up tho, there's been so much information disseminated in so many different ways.

#91 Eponine

Eponine

    rain will make the flowers grow

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,851 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:39 PM

In the book, there doesn't seem to be any seeding and Gregor and Ser Hugh meet in Gregor's second joust near the end of the day. Jaime and the Hound had already ridden once or twice by that point. And Ser Hugh's death doesn't end the jousting, it resumes almost immediately. That was the day that Ser Loras gave Sansa a red rose after his last joust and she takes it to mean something which it of course does not. At that point, only Gregor, Sandor, Jaime and Loras are left, and the last three jousts are delayed because of how late in the night it's gotten.

I'm disappointed that the show didn't follow the book at all in this regard, making it seem like Gregor and Ser Hugh were the only joust of the day, because as others have mentioned, the joust is one of the most visually spectacular events in the book with a lot of characters appearing in one place. Showing a few more jousts and having more of the court interacting in the stands would have been a good way to visually introduce some new characters and give other characters more face time. Like, it wouldn't be that important at this point to be able to identify or explicitly label Beric, Thoros, Loras, some different Kingsguard members, etc. at this point, but having them around the tourney grounds would have filled out the scene and maybe some people would remember - hey I've seen that guy around the court before - when they became more important.

Varys hints to Ned that Ser Hugh's death wasn't accidental because Ser Hugh was Lord Arryn's poisoner. I can't remember if this is something that Varys knows for a fact or not - or even if he knows that Littlefinger rather than Cersei was responsible. I thought that Lysa alluded to doing the poisoning herself, but since she's not the brightest bulb, she probably would have considered getting the squire to do it the same as doing it herself, without thinking through the full consequences of involving someone else, and leaving Littlefinger to dispose of him.

#92 Jaime L

Jaime L

    Die Mannschaft is the cruelest animal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,724 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:56 PM

I don't see what the complaints about the crowd are - I thought the overhead shot established that there were lots of people there. Sure, where the highborn people are there's not a ton, but I took that as being like a luxury box /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


The event just feels small, even on rewatch, when it's supposed to be a grand tournament involving all the great knights of the seven kingdoms. A tournament that Ned's concerned is bankrupting the realm.

But my complaint goes beyond just the crowd - it's the fact there was no pomp, no build up beforehand. No getting the feel of the city in festival with people coming from far and wide. It just...starts. Just another event in the life of the nobility, when, if viewed through Sansa's eyes it's everything she imagined life at court to be.

It's about the only thing so far I would've done differently than the producers. Really play up the tournament, not as a plot point, but to really establish the festival feel of Westeros in summer. Found a lot of power in the books in the marked contrast from the world that existed at the time of this tournament to the broken, chaotic world we see from ACOK on. Here's one of the few times I would de emphasize plot in favor of atmosphere.

Just my two cents. There's thousands of us on the board each with our own opinion of how we'd like to see the series go. To be clear, I think it's gone spectacularly, they've gotten just about everything that matters right and really this is my only meaningful complaint. But the reason I bring it up is because we have some battles coming up that I hope feel as grand and impactful as they do in the books and the handling of the tournament gives me pause whether it will. Or whether the sum of the series will end up feeling smaller, less epic. If it does, I understand it - this is TV, not film - but I'll be hoping otherwise nonetheless.

Edited by Jaime L, 12 May 2011 - 12:58 PM.


#93 cosnik

cosnik

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 01:19 PM

im sure its been mentioned, but im just griping over renly not looking pretty boy enough and having short hair. im really meshing with how they divulge information that is usually given in descriptive ruminations by the characters in the novel. like tyrion calling out theon about his roots and his subservience to his captors. actually, im still griping over scenes that are added in like last episodes back and forth between sam and jon about bedding women. eh.

#94 oneeye

oneeye

    Arya Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,270 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 03:37 PM

I think the nitpicking here stems from:

a) the forumers here are very detail oriented, some intimidatingly so.

/cool.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> lots here are semi starved for actual ASOIAF stuff, but the last book was written in 2005.

Having said that, I agree the tourney was not as big as it should have been, though I think we will see a few more jousts next episode.

The Viserys spittle bothered me.

Arya sitting at the tournament practially holding hands with the Septa was odd, but I guess they don't want to make her quite as super tough as in the books, or show how she changed even more.

Littlefinger is rocking for me in the tv show. Much more interesting a character than in the book I think.

I am a little concerned if we hit season 6 but book 6 is not written yet........

#95 Été

Été

    Dreaming of Summer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,398 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 05:52 PM

I am a little concerned if we hit season 6 but book 6 is not written yet........

/lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> What a terrifying thought. Hopefully TWoW won't have a 'Meereenese knot' to hold things up this long...

#96 Lord Varys

Lord Varys

    Most Devious 'Man' In The Seven Kingdoms

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,451 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:05 PM

Ser Hugh is just an distraction. He had nothing to do with the poisoning, and subsequently it makes little sense to assume that Gregor Clegane murdered him during the tourney on Cersei's orders (who, in turn, had nothing to do with the whole plot). It's pretty likely that Varys and Littlefinger were into the poisoning together, and both presented Ser Hugh as a scapegoat to protect themselves, and to prevent any further investigations on his side. After Ned has spoken to Varys and Littlefinger about Ser Hugh, he is convinced that he killed Jon Arryn on Cersei's orders. But due to Hugh's death, he has no proof of that, and his whole investigation is another dead end. Without Sansa's outburst about Joffrey and Robert, Ned would never have guessed the truth about the incest.

Varys definitely confirms his involvement in the death of Jon Arryn during his talk with Illyrio, and we are likely to hear some of these lines in the next episode. After all, 'the wolf and the lion' is a direct quote of Varys' ;-).

#97 KarentheUnicorn

KarentheUnicorn

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 14 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:15 PM

I actually didn't like Sam in the books but in this episode I really resonated with his character. I actually like him, I liked him and Jon and their conversations and you can tell they're going to be great friends.

Great acting!


YES! I thought I was the only one (doesn't feel alone now in my Sam-bored). I thought Sam was okay but while I was reading every time one of his chapters would be next I was always thinking dangit I wanna read about someone else.

I was able to tolerate Sam a lot better on screen than in print.


I'm disappointed that the show didn't follow the book at all in this regard, making it seem like Gregor and Ser Hugh were the only joust of the day, because as others have mentioned, the joust is one of the most visually spectacular events in the book with a lot of characters appearing in one place. Showing a few more jousts and having more of the court interacting in the stands would have been a good way to visually introduce some new characters and give other characters more face time. Like, it wouldn't be that important at this point to be able to identify or explicitly label Beric, Thoros, Loras, some different Kingsguard members, etc. at this point, but having them around the tourney grounds would have filled out the scene and maybe some people would remember - hey I've seen that guy around the court before - when they became more important.



Yea, I would have traded the very long bathtub sex scene for more jousting. They really could have put that dragon info off for a later episode.

#98 Tywin's bastard

Tywin's bastard

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 771 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:40 PM

Yea, I would have traded the very long bathtub sex scene for more jousting. They really could have put that dragon info off for a later episode.

As I see it the dragon info they presented was pretty much necessary to do before the next episode because it's extremely likely (given the title of the episode) that it's the one where Arya finds the skulls. In fact it was actually more late than soon to explain the link between the Targaryens and dragons as it's been hinted at plenty of times but the new viewers were never told why.

#99 iheartseverus

iheartseverus

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,494 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:43 PM

I didn't like the scrub-a-dub scene going on and on, either. But I have to say, they gave Viserys a very good line there. When the slave girl repeats that she heard that 'brave men killed the dragons,' Viserys responds, 'Brave men didn't kill the dragons, brave men rode the dragons.' Nice line.

#100 smegma

smegma

    FART

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,073 posts

Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:58 PM

Also Viserys doesn't have much time left - and right now, he is one of the only authority on dragons and the Targaryens. So the timing was necessary for that as well (and Arya's scene).