Xray the Enforcer Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Shagga, manhood, goats.pg 232 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsuel Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 With the Kindle for pc, I don't have page numbers, but after counting the chapters, I believe it is Tyrion 5 I wanted to discuss. Just in case though, I'll be a little cryptic. Those of you who read it will know what I mean, and it won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't. So, here's my Q: The information we get here in this chapter -- is it really that straightforward? Tyrion is smart, so it seems so, but you'll notice there's confirmation that the conclusions he comes to are accurate. Any chance that he is wrong, and they allow him to stay wrong in hopes of keeping their real secret (if they have one) from him? Or is it straightforward accurate? Hmmm... this is the last chapter I read so I guess we'll see! Hope you all are enjoying the book :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlin Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'm pretty sure it's straightforwardly accurate, but this was one of my pet theories so I might be biased. I felt a swell of confirmation pride when Illyrio mentioned "Griff" and "Young Griff" back at the beginning. I would like a little more explanation of how the baby switch came about. I know babies are easier to switch, but I wish they could have switched out poor little Rhaenys too. ;_; and her kitty cat! Though I guess the cat probably wasn't gruesomely murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Doe Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 2 days ago there was a thread on speculating the prince being switched. My jaw literally dropped when I saw the theory. I think it's straightforward accurate. There is little escaping Tyrion's observation so far in the series. And he's a very careful man. Tyrion's not gonna voice his conclusions unless he's 100% sure of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahri Adaran Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I don't buy it, not at all. It looks tempting, but Dany's vision of the mummer's dragon (ie a fake dragon) seem to point straight at this Young Griff. I wonder if the latter parts of the book will confirm it one way or the other (don't tell me!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarrileteCosmico Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I can barely believe it. First plot twist. There has been no evidence supporting the baby is still alive theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahri Adaran Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I can barely believe it. First plot twist. There has been no evidence supporting the baby is still alive theories.Because he isn't :) Count on it...I hope I don't get egg on my face when I read a bit farther in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 This character could be more evidence that R+L=J may not prove true. All the prophesies that people have attributed to Jon are much more suited to Young Griff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsuel Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Ugh, I'm torn about its authenticity. Mainly because Young griff is cut off and does not deny or confirm it. And the gods know, the ole 'cut-off-convo' trick is a pretty standard way of letting the reader believe things that are later proved false. I mean, not much of 'hiding' when they use the name Griff. I would think hiding a prince they would have used anything but. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahimiron Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'm pretty uncertain, given the vision of the mummer's dragon. Quaithe certainly doesn't seem to think that the Griffin has much good for Dany. Then again, Quaithe doesn't have much good to say for the Sun's son or the Lion, either.Stupid useless Quaithe!Anyway, I found an annoying editing error here. I spent most of the first four chapters assuming Young Griff was a Blackfyre scion that his dad was hoping to groom into Dany's husband. Then toward the beginning of the chapter, before we've learned who Young Griff is supposed to be, it has him say something but instead of saying 'said Young Griff' or 'said the young man' or whatever, it said 'said the prince'. Except that Martin hadn't referred to him as the prince yet, hadn't given us that information. When I realized that the prince being referred to had to be Young Griff I thought 'oooooh shiiiiit'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Hat Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 It's arguable whether it's the best spot for the reveal, but I don't think it's a genuine error. We're in Tyrion's perspective and, by the time of that line, he already knows, so he very well could think of young Griff as a prince if he chose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsuel Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 It's arguable whether it's the best spot for the reveal, but I don't think it's a genuine error. We're in Tyrion's perspective and, by the time of that line, he already knows, so he very well could think of young Griff as a prince if he chose.That's how I took it, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flit Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 And it does make you go, "Oh, what? Wait? Huh? Let me read that again, or read faster..." I also wanted to add, I had a rather improper moment of laughing when Tyrion thinks, "Bugger me," after stone man grabs his torch. I am also interested by these stone men. Greyscale has been mentioned before, but I could never quite find an illness that fit. It seems there's more to it than a way to disfigure a princess. I'm wondering what else there is to it, and if it'll play as more than another terrifying creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor for King Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Is he the prince or the king? I am not quite clear on how succession works in this caseRhaegar dies before Aerys, so Aerys' heirs at the time of his death are his children Viserys and Daenerys and his grandchild Aegon (aka young Griff) and maybe his sister Rhaenys too. Since Rhaegar is already dead, when Aerys dies does the crown pass to his secondborn son Viserys or his firstborn's son's son Aegon? If it's Viserys then now Dany is the Targaryen heir, but if it's Aegon then she's at best second in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleLitke Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Is he the prince or the king? I am not quite clear on how succession works in this caseRhaegar dies before Aerys, so Aerys' heirs at the time of his death are his children Viserys and Daenerys and his grandchild Aegon (aka young Griff) and maybe his sister Rhaenys too. Since Rhaegar is already dead, when Aerys dies does the crown pass to his secondborn son Viserys or his firstborn's son's son Aegon? If it's Viserys then now Dany is the Targaryen heir, but if it's Aegon then she's at best second in line.In theory Aegon would have the best claim of any possibilities we're aware of. Viserys would have been after Aegon in theory, but I'm not sure why "If it's Viserys, it has to be Dany now" would apply. Dany is a female and females typically come after everyone else except in Dorne. But it's also about whoever the people will back. Aegon is theoretically the heir over Dany, but Dany has dragons and is pretty much well known as being Aerys' daughter, as opposed to Young Griff, who people would have to buy into as Aegon. Of course if they end up married it doesn't really matter all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malarky1231 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The Mummer's dragon is mentioned separately from griff. In Quathie's prophecy, she makes mention of a grif, and a mummer's dragon. Although this might refer to Griff, and Young Griff is the mummer's dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Early Earl Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The Mummer's dragon is mentioned separately from griff. In Quathie's prophecy, she makes mention of a grif, and a mummer's dragon. Although this might refer to Griff, and Young Griff is the mummer's dragonMummer's dragon maybe a dragon Targwise (like the black(fyre) dragon) but not one of the three heads of the dragon?BTW I couldn't figure out who the pale mare is. Am I stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The Mummer's dragon is mentioned separately from griff. In Quathie's prophecy, she makes mention of a grif, and a mummer's dragon. Although this might refer to Griff, and Young Griff is the mummer's dragonSince Quaithe mentions all the characters we know heading to Dany's court, including Tyrion (Lion) & Victorian (Kraken), I'm inclined to think that the Griff she mentions referred to Connington (Old Griff), and the mummer's Dragon, with all that the name entails, to young Griff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 It's arguable whether it's the best spot for the reveal, but I don't think it's a genuine error. We're in Tyrion's perspective and, by the time of that line, he already knows, so he very well could think of young Griff as a prince if he chose.I noticed it (and thanks to some now-banned spoiling asshole, I knew about the Aegon reveal -- the perils of moderating the forum) and then saw it "confirmed" later in that chapter. I agree that it fits in with Tyrion's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Toblerone Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I don't buy it, not at all. It looks tempting, but Dany's vision of the mummer's dragon (ie a fake dragon) seem to point straight at this Young Griff. I wonder if the latter parts of the book will confirm it one way or the other (don't tell me!).Mummer's Dragon could mean a fake dragon, or it could mean a Dragon "playing a mummer's part" i.e. in disguise.Tyrion's clues work just as well whether he's real or fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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