[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Roose Bolton's Onesie]

I'd like to throw a few late night ideas into the melting pot:

Jon was armoured in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. [p769]

Upon first reading, I thought that Jon being armoured in black ice was just a nice metaphor for the black armour of the Night's Watch; now, it screams Ice and Fire.

Also, could the Tower of Joy not also be a place of salt and smoke? Ned presumably shed a tear or two after Lyanna's death, and afterwards we know that the tower was torn down (though I don't know how he'd have gone about that).

He is stone and she is flame. The king's eyes were blue bruises, sunk deep in a hollow face. [p135]

Could this be suggestive of Stannis being the king who casts no shadow? If Melisandre abandons her belief that he is AA, he'll lose a literal shadow, in that she's always with him, and also the authenticity she casts on him in the eyes of his subjects.

[dreamcatcher]

There is nothing weird going on with Jon's hand, it's fully healed. His flexing his fingers is just a habit he has from when he did need to flex them in order to keep them in workable condition. Also, any Targ can be hurt by fire. Even Dany the Unburnt got pretty bad burns in ADWD. What I find interesting about Jon burning his hand in AGOT, is that he says he didn't feel any pain when he threw that burning hanging, he actually says that "Heat on his face was sweeter than any kiss..."

Wow! I don't remember that. I went to re-read it and this is totally Targaryen-esque. Does heat hurt (as in, pain) Jon or not?

I also agree that there's nothing wrong with his hand. He was told to stretch it when it was healing, now it's just a nervous tic.

[Lady of Long Lake]

We're told that Castle Black is "well-stocked" with salt in the feast scene for Stannis' soldiers early in ADwD. Assuming Jon's corpse is stored down in those storerooms or in an ice cell, he could be amidst salt when resurrected/reborn.

Also, could the "stars that bleed" be the Poor Fellows and/or the Warrior's Sons? I could see the High Septon's forces actually being the only army that would respond to fight the Others once word finally reaches the rest of the kingdom that the risk is real. Septon dispatches the Sword and Stars to the Wall, he has Melisandre imprisoned (thereby delaying the resurrection of Jon Snow), Others attack, Sword and Stars are slaughtered at the Wall, somehow Melisandre escapes and revives Snow.

I thought of that too when I reread the quote here! They do mention how much salt they have in storage at the Wall.

[Aress]

I'd like to throw a few late night ideas into the melting pot:

Upon first reading, I thought that Jon being armoured in black ice was just a nice metaphor for the black armour of the Night's Watch; now, it screams Ice and Fire.

Also, could the Tower of Joy not also be a place of salt and smoke? Ned presumably shed a tear or two after Lyanna's death, and afterwards we know that the tower was torn down (though I don't know how he'd have gone about that).

Could this be suggestive of Stannis being the king who casts no shadow? If Melisandre abandons her belief that he is AA, he'll lose a literal shadow, in that she's always with him, and also the authenticity she casts on him in the eyes of his subjects.

Just wow in re to Stannis, if you recall his shadow was used to kill Renly. Perhaps that's what it means by no shadow.

[Jaric]

I am hoping Jon is AA, mainly because I am a huge Jon Snow fan, and I want to see his character survive. Also Jon has already been a hero, he fought and killed a white, and hes been at the Wall the entire series, with the Others Beyond. Plus Jon is a bad ass swordsman, where Dany is a little girl, who has never even attempted to learn any skill at arms. Dany is the Mother of Dragons, I see her more likely being Nissa Nissa, and wedding Jon "Targaryen". I have also wandered where Thoros of Myr the red priest fits into the AA story line?

I personally don't like the red Lady very much. A: not into religious fanatics, B: not into human sacrifice (especially children) "young Edric Storm", C: Something about her just rubs me the wrong way, I don't think "her" or her interpretation of Rhollor is always "good". I get a very good vibe from Thoros of Myr, but not the red Lady, or even the red priest with Victarion, burning seven girls alive... I don't believe any "good" god claiming to be the Lord of Light, should burn people alive.

[Grea]

I was throwing some ideas in the air yesterday, about who will be the new Azor Ahai and came up with a theory. At first I thought it must be Daenerys, but then I read her prophecies again, which she received from the warlocks. I came to a conclusion that all of the love parts mentioned, could be linked to Jon (if he really is AA). To make it short, they will fall in love, and after that Daenerys will become the next Nissa Nissa by getting killed by Jon (so he can make the Lightbringer full).

Even if it wouldn´t go like this, I´m still pretty sure that Daenerys will be the new Nissa Nissa.

[brut]

Something that I would highlight in both versions of the prophecy

"In the ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness will flee before him."

- In the ancient books of Asshai it is written

While Martin was quite adamant about specifying numerous books throughout the series, the prophecy as important as this only mentions of some ancient book of Asshai, with no title or author. This fact may not be incidental. The very fact that there are different versions of the prophecy means something is lost within, and we should not rule out that prophecy-related discovery is in the works. It may seem fairly speculative, but nothing could prevent Sam in Oldtown or any literate POV at the Wall to discover something in the libraries that relates to the prophecy and AA.

- that there will come a day after a long summer

This clearly directs us towards the end of DwD. Martin is very precise in showing the white raven to Kevan Lannister before his death-by-crossbow-bolt, which can only mean one thing: the summer is over. Although, it is just “a day after” the long summer is over, and no specific timeline is given. Irrespective of all ambiguity as to when the exact events will take place, what we can be certain of, is that everything will be happening during the winter ahead. Further more, assuming the arrival of white raven coincides in time with the alleged murder of Jon Snow, I cannot think of the more perfect time stamp as used by Martin. Also:

- when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.

Scores of indications lead us to the Wall and towards Jon Snow there. Jon feels only cold from the last stab, the night is falling along with the darkness of the winter, dimming the world of Jon as he is dying, the stars bleed both in the sky and on the sigils. Throw whatever you will to the mix (and if you read through this forum you will find many quotes and great analysis), everything leads to the moment of Jon’s death and events unfurling after it.

- In this dread hour, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes,

If we realign the events so far with the prophecy text, we may find out that the sword has not been drown yet. The other fiery swords that we encountered throughout the series – Lightbringer of Stan, flaming swords of Dandelion and Thoros – may not count, as they are clearly off the timeline. Again, the one and only sword prophesized is either not in action yet, or does not possess its ancient powers. The sword has to be drawn from the fire, and has to be burning, it seems. The closest we glimpse such weapon is during Jon’s dream where he waves the burning sword in his fist, but again, we don’t know if the sword is Longclaw of any other weapon. All we are left with is that it is Jon who fights with it. Now pay attention how it is “Red Sword of Heroes”. The only red swords remaining to the Westeros are remnants of Ice – Stark’s family sword – reforged by Tywin Lannister into two swords. This is far from being a coincidence. Remember, smiths of the modern world are not able to create Valyrian steel, neither can they modify it in any way, so essentially, the steel in Oathkeeper (and the other weapon) is that of Ice, and for all purposes, that is the Stark blade. There is one big difference though: Ice does not possess deep red coloring of its sibling Oathkeeper - Ice is characterized exactly as “dark as smoke” in the beginning of GoT. So what happened to the steel between Ice and Oathkeeper? The answer is: tempering! Ice went through the fire to be divided and reforged as two new blades gaining deep red coloring in Oathkeeper. I am not saying that the Lightbringer actually has to be Stark blade, but the implication is that a Valyrian steel reforged in fire, read “drawn from the fire” will/may become the Red Sword of Heroes.

- and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness will flee before him.

Sam discovers reference in one of the old books that the Others are vulnerable to the dragonglass, and dragon steel. Jon thinks this to be Valyrian steel, but my suspicion is that simple “dormant” steel will not suffice and it has to be touched by magic. Not petty red priests playing with spells, but proper dragon magic – dragon flame. At least, everything seems to lead that way: magic returning to the world after birth of the dragons, fire becoming more potent than ever, transformation of Oathkeeper, Jon’s dream, red Sword, prophecy itself.

Considering the shorter prophecy:

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

- Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt

I personally believe that while the larger version of prophecy quite clearly indicates the events happening around alleged assassination of Jon (“a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world”), the shorter version has rather to deal with his rebirth as AA. How and at what circumstances will AA be born again, is not known, all we know, there has to be smoke and salt – either physically, or figuratively.

- to wake dragons out of stone.

So, finally, dragons, where do the dragons come from? Ah, remember that dragonglass horn? Now, that horn seemed something very uncertain (although Martin was quite diligent in mentioning the horn on different occasions) prior to Jon finding out that Mance never actually discovered the Horn of Joramun. The horn burned at the wall appeared to be a phony as admitted by Tormund. So, the discovery of that dragonglass cache after all goes beyond the knowledge of killing the Others. But what is the horn good for? All we know, it was used by Joramun to “wake giants from the earth” and the alleged ability of the horn to destroy the Wall is only the quality ascribed to it by the wildlings in their desire to cross the Wall. But think about it for a second: Horn to “wake giants from the earth”… Who’s to say this Horn cannot wake dragons instead? After all, we have encountered giants, and they do not really experience any need in being woken up from the earth. What if the actual power of the Horn was to wake and control dragons? And what if this knowledge is discovered in the remaining book of Asshai? This would conclude the prophesy neatly.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

- that there will come a day after a long summer

This clearly directs us towards the end of DwD. Martin is very precise in showing the white raven to Kevan Lannister before his death-by-crossbow-bolt, which can only mean one thing: the summer is over.

A minor? problem. The white raven at the end of aDwD announced the end of autumn and the beginning of winter. The white raven that announced the end of summer first appeared in the prologue to aCoK. (Remember Cressen, Pylos, and Shireen?) The Conclave at the Citadel doesn't send out the white ravens to announce the end of a season until it confirms it has ended, so those ravens will arrive a bit late. Summer ended at the end of aGoT.

[longlivestark]

A minor? problem. The white raven at the end of aDwD announced the end of autumn and the beginning of winter. The white raven that announced the end of summer first appeared in the prologue to aCoK. (Remember Cressen, Pylos, and Shireen?) The Conclave at the Citadel doesn't send out the white ravens to announce the end of a season until it confirms it has ended, so those ravens will arrive a bit late. Summer ended at the end of aGoT.

Could really mean anyone, the prophecy is not very specific on exactly when, just a day, so anyone can really apply.

[brut]

A minor? problem. The white raven at the end of aDwD announced the end of autumn and the beginning of winter. The white raven that announced the end of summer first appeared in the prologue to aCoK. (Remember Cressen, Pylos, and Shireen?) The Conclave at the Citadel doesn't send out the white ravens to announce the end of a season until it confirms it has ended, so those ravens will arrive a bit late. Summer ended at the end of aGoT.

Well, not really a problem. Following the history of Westeros, false springs are a common event. If I recall correctly, the last false spring tricked even maesters. So with the second raven, it is clear there will be no spring any time soon.

[Suzette]

1. GRRM confirmed that Azor Ahai reborn IS the Prince Who Was Promised, just in a different cultural interpretation.

2. Jon got three signs of the prophecy right at the end, but not the critical final one, the "waking dragons out of stone" one.

3. The dragon has three heads, so Dany and Jon can both be the prince who was promised, plus one more. My guess is that it's connected to the riddle of the sphinx... perhaps the sphinx in question is part dragon, part wolf and part... lion? If the third head really is Tyrion.

I like this but can you confirm that GRRM said that the AA and TPTWP are the same?

[longlivestark]

I like this but can you confirm that GRRM said that the AA and TPTWP are the same?

He didn't, that was a false claim made by a poster who admitted he lied and that GRRM never said that.

[Laurie Pringle]

You are correct... there's nothing that says "red star". The quote is: “In the ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness will flee before him.”

--CoK, pg. 148

Many seem to assume that the comet was the star bleeding... and that's when Stannis did his glowing sword thing.

didn't the prophecy refer to a "bleeding star", not to a "red" one? Ser Patrek WAS bleeding, this is for sure :D (and blood is red)

ps: from the gift. And lords do give "donations" to the watch.

yes, but it's "dragonS", not just a single "dragon". How many secret targs are around? lol

i bet we are all sick of the east. Please, no more east.

Anyway, aegon should be 12/16 months older than jon.

And i think GRRM confirmed that AA/ PtwP is just one guy, not three ;)

[Iron Captain]

Was just looking over the chapter, and saw a funny passage in the beginning.

Queen Selyse sniffed again. "Four marriages can be made as simply as three. It is past time that this woman Val was settled, Lord Snow. I have decided that she shall wed my good and leal knight, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain."

"Has Val been told, Your Grace?" asked Jon. "Amongst the free folk, when a man desires a woman, he steals her, and thus proves his strength, his cunning, and his courage. The suitor risks a savage beating if he is caught by the woman's kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy."

"A savage custom," Axell Florent said.

Ser Patrek only chuckled. "No man has ever had cause to question my courage. No woman ever will."

I didn't catch it at the time, but I suppose Ser Patrek truly did have the courage to try and steal val from Wun Wun....it just didn't turn out too well for him. :rofl:

[Whatever]

I like this but can you confirm that GRRM said that the AA and TPTWP are the same?

Appeal to the boards: can anybody ask this to GRRM next time?

[Arthanis]

"Stars" may mean "knights of the faith", their warrior monks are called "stars". "Stars bleeding" may mean "knights of Seven are slaughtered". Just theory ;)

[dreamcatcher]

Appeal to the boards: can anybody ask this to GRRM next time?

He was asked but he didn't want to answer.

[Dolorous J]

Prophecy contains vague references that can be contributed to ANYTHING after the fact to make it seem true. That's why they're not to be trusted.

[Whatever]

He was asked but he didn't want to answer.

When?

[Caren]

I have read some very interesting theories, some crazy some very excellent ones based on facts and quotes found within the books.

However I'm utterly flabergasted, shocked and dismayed that only 1 post on this thread spotted that Lightbringer is actually referring to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword also known as Dawn.I have harboured this theory since first learning the prophecy and also reading of the fabled Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne's nickname referring to this sword

obviously.

This sword was fashioned from a meteorite, a falling star and the Seat of the Daynes is called Starfall, which by coincidence or meer happenstance also happens to be shrouded in the mystery of Jon's birth....

From the PoV of the Frey who was branded on the arse by a female outlaw he mused of Ser Arthur Dayne rescuing him which was corroberated by Jaime's PoV of Ser Dayne when reading the White Book....Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn glowed like the Sun on a summers morning when he held it in his sword hand.....

The Dayne's have Targaryen blood hence their looks etc I believe Dawn reacts in this way for the blood of a Dragon.

The sword was named Lightbringer by a prophet who for all intents and purposes sees a vision Im willing to bet that the sword was named thus by a visual decription therefore Lightbringer= Dawn the sword of the Daynes. Otherwise why would GRRM provide so many clever snippets of PoV's regarding it...

Prophecies as we know tend to only make sense in hindsight and 9 times out of 10 it's a simple interpretation that's usually correct, something blatantly obvious is usually the answer nothing too complicated....and prophecy cannot be forced to come true like Mellisandre did with Stannis...the events usually happen without help.

Now as for the swords location Dawn was delivered to Starfall along with Ser Arthur Dayne's bones by Ned Stark after the fall of Kings Landing...as to whether it stayed there iv not yet read a PoV suggesting otherwise. Either that or iv missed a clue somewhere within the books. I was also concerned with the Red Sword of Heros quote did Tywin Lannister manage to aquire Dawn and had Ice forged anew along with the sword giving a whole new meaning to A Song of Ice and Fire as there was far too many items made along with Oathkeeper for it to be just one sword....is Oathkeeper with it's odd Red light actually Dawn & Ice forged into Lightbringer???

I believe The Prince Who Was Promised is Jon Snow right from AGoT Ned Stark reveals Lyanna made him Promise something....

It's totally simple and blatantly obvious as prophecy usually is.... Ned promised Lyanna as she lay dying something that cost him a lot with regards to his honour only something massive could do that what could be more prescious than her son's life? "Promise Me Ned"

Ned Stark would want to protect his nephew considering what happenned to the Targaryen children, which we know he totally disapproved of as he fell out of favour with Robert by making his thoughts on the matter public.

So we know he would tarnish his honour only for his children as witnessed on the steps of Baelors Sept during his Execution he Lied to the public in order to protect his children. Something the honourable Ned Stark would have done for no one else. Ned found Lyanna guarded by 3 of the best Kingsguard who from Selmy's PoV we now know only protect the King and the Royal family I doubt they would guard Lyanna and let Rhaegar go off to battle without them unless she was with child and a royal child at that. We also know from Selmy's PoV that Elia Rhaegar's wife couldn't have anymore children after Aegon was born this coincides with Dany's vision of the past with Rhaegar stating the Dragon must have 3 heads, this also times nicely as a couple of months after this came the tourney at Harrenhal and how he picked Lyanna and made off with her 9 months later Jon was born..

For this reason and a thousand others Jon is a Targaryen and Rhaegar's 3rd Dragon......I also believe Young Griff is Aegon the lilac eyes Tyrion saw show his true heritage and Varys is very clever at the art of deception I trully believe this is Aegon....I also believe all the PoVs regarding what happenned during the war of the usurper is like a thousand piece jigsaw put together and the answers to the mysteries of the past will be revealed...