[ADWD Spoilers] Young Griff 3

[Ice Turtle]

Aegon is Summer knight king and Winter is here. He had it too easy, maybe even compared to Tommen who had two neglectful fathers, crazy abusive brother and Cersei for mom. Aegon reminds me of early Loras and Brienne and Quentyn. I want to see him fail, but for now he is probably safe, he is pawn in hands of skillful players.

[The Great Cornholio!]

I dunno, Eddard takes his seven year old to watch him execute people. Jon Connington might act all hardcore, but I think he can't help but shelter Rheagar's supposed son just a little. Jon knows what it's like to be hated (Catelyn) by someon he has to spend to around.

I don't think Varys is lying what his upbringing is concerned. But nurture isn't everything. Quentin was given a humbler upbringing then his sister too but he just wasn't made of the right stuff. Dany, Jon and Robb are younger then Aegon but I think they're just made of better stuff.

Now I'm not that against Aegon. I don't think he's insane or even that spoiled. Just too eager, and still not quite enough life experience, despite having been on the road.

Its more than just eager. He doesn't seem old. He seems like a child. He's never described as a man, just a boy. I struggled through the reading with trying not to picture him like a 13 year old. A 13 year old was what the written word showed me.

[Alia of the knife]

The first thing I thought of was "Tom Sawyer," or "Huck Finn."

[Cirdan]

Aegon is fake. Facts and prophecies aside (the text does not offer any resolutive proof about the issue) my opinion is entirely based on the quality of the storyline. Imho, if he is the real thing, the way he's introduced in the series as a serious contender to the Iron Throne would feel unelegant and cheap. And GRRM is not a cheap writer. I know that the possibility of Aegon being alive is not a late addiction to the series. I speculated about Aegon since I've read Dany's vision at the House of Undying eleven years ago. I know that the action of Varys and Illirio toward Dany and Viserys only make sense in that new context. Still, I'm not convinced: the baby switch affair is overcomplicated, the rightfull king raised in secret to rule justly above the realm looks too much like a possible subversion of the arthurian myth to finish well and most importantly the final speech of Varys in ADwD smells of BS. "For the realm and the children"... yes off course. Tell it to Ned! If Aegon is fake the tale will be stronger in my view, so that's why I believe he is fake.

So, who is Aegon? I believe he is just a random child adopted by Illiryo and Varys. Maybe, one of the many adopted child but the only one who showed the perfect phisical feature at 5 years or so. Not his son: Illiryo has not any other son and that's quite strange. I wonder if he can have any child at all. Maybe he is gelded too and that would explain his remarkable appetite and fatness. Yes, he speaks very fondly about "the boy", but I believe that he would be more possessive in case Aegon was his rightfull child. Instead his affection seems more sweet and delicate, like a grandpather, an uncle or an adoptive father. I could definetly see a scene where Varys would go "Bayaz" with proud Aegon (Bayaz is a charachter from the "First Law Trilogy" by Joe Abercrombie: whoever have read it, will understand what I mean).

The Aegon Blackfyre/Brightflame theory is really interesting even if it still looks really complicated to me. It would require an incredible amount of infodump for whom have not read the D&E stories. But it would be a solid explanation to the context of Varys and Illiryo plan so it's a serious possibility. Still, maybe Varys and Illiryo are the last of Blackfyre/Brightflame line but Aegon could be a simple orphan bought on the street nonetheless.

Finally, Aegon is definetly not R+L or B+A. Ned would know about it and he never touches the argument when he meets with Varys at the end of AGoT.

[DurararaFTW]

Its more than just eager. He doesn't seem old. He seems like a child. He's never described as a man, just a boy. I struggled through the reading with trying not to picture him like a 13 year old. A 13 year old was what the written word showed me.

Well,

apparently the attack on Storm's End that he led will be successful for him and bloody for the defenders so let's not count him out. But yeah, he seems to be written rather immature.

[corbon]

Its more than just eager. He doesn't seem old. He seems like a child. He's never described as a man, just a boy. I struggled through the reading with trying not to picture him like a 13 year old. A 13 year old was what the written word showed me.

A bit like Robb? A boy trying to be a man. Except Robb did it a little better, as he had too, whereas YG is still 'under' Griff, so hasn't needed to step up in the same way yet.

But in the end, Robb succumbed to his immaturity and it killed him.

[The Great Cornholio!]

A bit like Robb? A boy trying to be a man. Except Robb did it a little better, as he had too, whereas YG is still 'under' Griff, so hasn't needed to step up in the same way yet.

But in the end, Robb succumbed to his immaturity and it killed him.

No not like Robb at all. GRRM always wrote Robb to seem like a young man. Headstrong yes, but not childish. Aegon just seems young. Even in his physical descriptions.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Am I the only one finding the Aegon/tyrion and Jon snow/tyrion interactions eerily similiar?

Positively avuncular. Hmmm.....

[DornishKnight]

I am of the opinion that Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon. This name has two parts:

1. His rise is due to the scheming of the "mummer", namely Varys. Simple enough.

2. Being the mummer's dragon means he actually is a Dragon (Either the real Aegon or a Blackfyre descendant).

The "Aegon is fake" crowd need to factor these considerations in.

[Ladywhiskers]

no, I shan't, because it isn't a tangent.

Again. Lord Godric tells Davos, in DwD- that when Ned left the Vale, to return to Winterfell, to call his banners, he took a fishing boat, because Gulltown was still Loyalist. There was a storm, the fisherman died, the daughter got Ned to the Sisters...where she gave birth to Ned's bastard, Jon Snow.

This even happened WELL before the ToJ, and any offspring Lyanna may have had, or any promise Ned may have made to her. At that point in time, Ned had no reason to lie about having a bastard to cover for his sister and her child.

Why would Ned Stark, the most honourable of men, lie about having a bastard for no reason?

Now, if you actually paid attention, you would have noticed that...I said that if Jon isn't Lyanna's, we still have a possible Lyanna spawned Targ out there. Further, I pointed out the cover story for Aegon is beyond lame, the whole "smushed head, nobody could tellwe'd already switched kids" seems beneath Martin's usual craft.

On the other hand, if "Aegon" is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, he is still a Targ, yet still a fake Aegon, which explains the hints that Aegon isn't Aegon that people are debating.

It even makes sense that Connington would protect the child, because it's the son of his beloved friend and prince. It makes sense they'd present him as Aegon, because that's easier to explain than to admit the whole rebellion was an excercise in stupidity, because Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (or not, even the fact that Lyanna wasn't kindnapped and raped would cause many people on both sides to facepalm). Because people didn't know it wasn't kidnap and rape, because people don't know R+L had a kid, it's easier to convince them that Aegon was switched, rather than to convince them that the Grifflette was born after the War, but is still, indeed, a legitimate claiment to the throne.

So, no, Ned wouldn't create lies about a bastard before he realized he had to, and, no, it isn't a tangent to Grifflette, because it actually specifically addresses who he may really be.

We don't know how Lord Godric knows this stuff. Was he there? He's telling the story years and years after the fact. Is he relating first-hand experience, or just rumors? I'm not sure I consider him a reliable narrator.

[Ser Lepus]

We don't know how Lord Godric knows this stuff. Was he there? He's telling the story years and years after the fact. Is he relating first-hand experience, or just rumors? I'm not sure I consider him a reliable narrator.

Lord Godric was there when Ned was captured and taken to Lord Godric´s late father; if Wylla was the one who carried him to the Sisters, she probably was captured with him....so Lord Godric is a quite reliable source. Of course Wylla didn´t gave birth until months later, after leaving the Sisters, so there may be some piece missing there, but the Fingers aren´t far from the Sisters, Lord Godric knew the fisherwoman, and he thinks she gave birth to Ned´s bastard, Jon Snow...he could be wrong, of course, and Ned may have used his girlfriend as a red herring to hep him fool people into thinking Jon was his bastard, and not Lyanna´s, but whatever is the truth, I´m sure the fisherwoman (Wylla?) took part in it.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I’m pretty sure that Aegon is a calque on Henry Tudor, with a wee bit of Jabobite “king across the water” mixed in. For those wearing a white rose cockade, this old rhyme speaks of that in the real world, with original Scottish spelling:

O what’s the rhyme to porringer?

Ken ye the rhyme to porringer?

King James the Seventh had ae dochter,

And he gave her to an Oranger.

Ken ye how he requited him?

Ken ye how he requited him?

The lad has into England come,

And taen the crown in spite o’ him.

The dog, he shall na keep it lang,

To flinch we’ll mak him fain again;

We’ll hing him hie upon a tree,

And James shall have his ain again.

Ken ye the rhyme to grasshopper?

Ken ye the rhyme to grasshopper?

A hempen rein, a horse o’ tree,

A psalm-book, and a Presbyter.

Now convert the white rose to a black dragon, and there you have it. Here, try this:

O what’s the rhyme to Blackfyre?

Ken ye the rhyme to Blackfyre?

Unworthy Aegon gave his son

The sword his hopes to backfire.

The king across the water bides

Not long ere home again he rides

In glory till at Redgrass Field

A weirwood arrow fate decides.

Beyond the Wall white walkers walk,

Lord Brynden urges ravens talk,

In waters cold lurk dead things bold,

And wolves the sons of men do stalk.

The Children teach young Bran to see

The world from faces in a tree.

Three distant dragons reave and burn

Both friend and foe across the sea.

O who can rhyme Targaryen?

Can any rhyme Targaryen?

Swift Aegon brings the sword of kings

The unburnt queen to marry him.

[Dragonfish]

I am of the opinion that Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon. This name has two parts:

1. His rise is due to the scheming of the "mummer", namely Varys. Simple enough.

2. Being the mummer's dragon means he actually is a Dragon (Either the real Aegon or a Blackfyre descendant).

The "Aegon is fake" crowd need to factor these considerations in.

I can assure you, the "Aegon is fake" crowd have factored these considerations in. Our argument does not rely solely on what the term "mummer's dragon" signifies, but also on an interpretation of the "slayer of lies" line that is associated with it. It would be nice if more people would recognize this, rather than coming into these threads and saying "'mummer's dragon' just means he's a dragon being controlled by a mummer!" for about the billionth time.

Lord Godric was there when Ned was captured and taken to Lord Godric´s late father; if Wylla was the one who carried him to the Sisters, she probably was captured with him....so Lord Godric is a quite reliable source.

It's doubtful Lord Godric met the fisherman's daughter (who we don't actually know for sure is Wylla). He says to Davos that when she got Ned to the Sisters, "[t]hey say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly." It's the "they say" part that makes me think he never met her.

Regardless, there are plenty of reasons to discount Lord Godric's story, the biggest one being that Ned claims he cheated on Catelyn when he fathered Jon, which would put Jon's conception long after Ned's trip to the Sisters. Ned has no reason to lie about such a thing if Jon was conceived on some random fisherman's daughter before he was betrothed to Catelyn; he does, however, have plenty of reasons to lie if he is protecting Jon's true identity.

[Ladywhiskers]

I’m pretty sure that Aegon is a calque on Henry Tudor, with a wee bit of Jabobite “king across the water” mixed in. For those wearing a white rose cockade, this old rhyme speaks of that in the real world, with original Scottish spelling:

O what’s the rhyme to porringer?

Ken ye the rhyme to porringer?

King James the Seventh had ae dochter,

And he gave her to an Oranger.

Ken ye how he requited him?

Ken ye how he requited him?

The lad has into England come,

And taen the crown in spite o’ him.

The dog, he shall na keep it lang,

To flinch we’ll mak him fain again;

We’ll hing him hie upon a tree,

And James shall have his ain again.

Ken ye the rhyme to grasshopper?

Ken ye the rhyme to grasshopper?

A hempen rein, a horse o’ tree,

A psalm-book, and a Presbyter.

Now convert the white rose to a black dragon, and there you have it. Here, try this:

O what’s the rhyme to Blackfyre?

Ken ye the rhyme to Blackfyre?

Unworthy Aegon gave his son

The sword his hopes to backfire.

The king across the water bides

Not long ere home again he rides

In glory till at Redgrass Field

A weirwood arrow fate decides.

Beyond the Wall white walkers walk,

Lord Brynden urges ravens talk,

In waters cold lurk dead things bold,

And wolves the sons of men do stalk.

The Children teach young Bran to see

The world from faces in a tree.

Three distant dragons reave and burn

Both friend and foe across the sea.

O who can rhyme Targaryen?

Can any rhyme Targaryen?

Swift Aegon brings the sword of kings

The unburnt queen to marry him.

Wow, yours is better than the real thing.

[DornishKnight]

I can assure you, the "Aegon is fake" crowd have factored these considerations in. Our argument does not rely solely on what the term "mummer's dragon" signifies, but also on an interpretation of the "slayer of lies" line that is associated with it. It would be nice if more people would recognize this, rather than coming into these threads and saying "'mummer's dragon' just means he's a dragon being controlled by a mummer!" for about the billionth time.

It's doubtful Lord Godric met the fisherman's daughter (who we don't actually know for sure is Wylla). He says to Davos that when she got Ned to the Sisters, "[t]hey say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly." It's the "they say" part that makes me think he never met her.

Regardless, there are plenty of reasons to discount Lord Godric's story, the biggest one being that Ned claims he cheated on Catelyn when he fathered Jon, which would put Jon's conception long after Ned's trip to the Sisters. Ned has no reason to lie about such a thing if Jon was conceived on some random fisherman's daughter before he was betrothed to Catelyn; he does, however, have plenty of reasons to lie if he is protecting Jon's true identity.

I think the most likely interpretation is that "Aegon" is a Blackfyre. It means he is a dragon, while also a lie to be slain.

It satisfies all the sides, as far as I can tell.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Lord Godric was there when Ned was captured and taken to Lord Godric´s late father; if Wylla was the one who carried him to the Sisters, she probably was captured with him....so Lord Godric is a quite reliable source. Of course Wylla didn´t gave birth until months later, after leaving the Sisters, so there may be some piece missing there, but the Fingers aren´t far from the Sisters, Lord Godric knew the fisherwoman, and he thinks she gave birth to Ned´s bastard, Jon Snow...he could be wrong, of course, and Ned may have used his girlfriend as a red herring to hep him fool people into thinking Jon was his bastard, and not Lyanna´s, but whatever is the truth, I´m sure the fisherwoman (Wylla?) took part in it.

Why do you even think that the Wylla whom Ned claims is Jon's mother is the same fisherman's daughter at the Sisters? Despite this same Wylla ending up down in DORNE, at Starfall?

I thought the fisherman's daughter story was a cheeky red herring to muddy the waters, that this girl was not Wylla and that Ned probably never even slept with her, let alone got her pregnant. The guy who told Davos about it didn't have firsthand knowledge, it was all gossip and hearsay.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Why do you even think that the Wylla whom Ned claims is Jon's mother is the same fisherman's daughter at the Sisters? Despite this same Wylla ending up down in DORNE, at Starfall?

I thought the fisherman's daughter story was a cheeky red herring to muddy the waters, that this girl was not Wylla and that Ned probably never even slept with her, let alone got her pregnant. The guy who told Davos about it didn't have firsthand knowledge, it was all gossip and hearsay.

I thought it was a Red Herring as well. It also made a excellent story for Godrick to make his point to Davos. But all in all just a story.

I think that when Jon's parentage is revealed it will be in a no shit manner. One of the greatest mysteries of the series wont have a loose end.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Wow, yours is better than the real thing.

Gee, thanks. ☺

One of the things that I wish A Song of Ice and Fire had more of (in fact, almost any of), is ballads and laments, songs and poems. It goes with the period, but Martin doesn’t do it much at all.

Can we make new verses to go with it in the same rhythm and rhyme scheme? The scheme is usually in iambic tetrameter, surely the easiest of all English meters, with a rhyme scheme so:

x X x X x X x A

x X x X x X x A

x X x B x X x B

x X x X x X x A

Where an uppercase letter represents a stressed syllable and lowercase in unstressed, and letters other than X/x should rhyme.

I find make the third line in each quatrain have internal rhyme makes it hold together better, although it’s not strictly necessary for the form. The third line doesn’t really need the internal rhyme, but I think the verses that have it are stronger. It probably shouldn’t end in A though.

The first and last verses have a slightly different scheme:

x X x X x A a a

x X x X x A a a

x X x B x X x B

x X x X x A a a

It’s those ‘feminine rhyme’ versions that are especially hard, where you have a final dactylic foot instead of an iambic one, like porringer / Oranger, grasshopper / Presbyter, Blackfyre / backfire, Targaryen / to marry him. The last one (Targaryen / to marry him) with its long ˘ ¯ ˘ ˘ rhyme is certainly the best.

BTW, an alternate version of the first quatrain in the original is

Ken ye the rhyme for porringer?

Ken ye the rhyme for porringer?

The King he had a daughter fair,

And gave the Prince of Orange her.

As you see, they weren’t too terribly uptight about exact rhymes (hey, we’re working with Orange, after all!), although the meter has to work. Still, the second line can swap the first foot around from an iamb (x X) to a trochee (X x). Some metrical variation enlivens a poem, but verses that are perfectly regular are easier to remember; hence nursery rhymes. For a classy touch, since it’s got four feet per line, it begs sneaking in some Anglo-Saxon style alliteration now and then.

Anyway, can we come up with more verses for this?