Heresy 4

[Val the Wildling Princess]

i just want to say thanks for this thread (and the previous ones) it's without a doubt my favorite topic on the whole board, I just don't feel worthy of participate cause you guys know a lot haha :blush:

[FanTasy]

Ow Val ... please do participate! Never underestimate the power of added minds that think of something others grasp at. :eek:

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Ow Val ... please do participate! Never underestimate the power of added minds that think of something others grasp at. :eek:

Thanks! Sure, the moment I have something important to add I will! By now I'm fine stalking you all in a non creepy way :D

[Black Crow]

Thanks for the kind words all, and Val, its always nice to know somebody reads this stuff; and don't be afraid to chime in. It was Capon Breath who came up with the wonderfully simple suggestion that the Wall was built to contain the Winter...

Anyway, I'll be working on the next installment shortly, but in the meantime I'll add this cheerful little thought. Whether you agree with the fundamental heresy set out above, I hope I've shown that it can be sustained by the text, and to my mind makes more sense than the orthodox view, and the reason for that is quite simple.

While its not the only scenario on offer the orthodox view envisages a weakened Westeros invaded by a great army of Others, who, following Dany's dream (and why not) are defeated in a second great battle on the Trident, possibly by Dany's Amazing Dragons, ridden by a variety of characters according to choice - with by way of variation the possibility that a bitter and twisted Jon Snow may be leading the Others rather than riding a dragon.

The trouble with this scenario, is Winter.

The White Walkers are not the threat. I want to look at them again more closely in a future post, but for the moment would like to make the point that even if they do turn out to be as evil mean and nasty as advertised, they are secondary to the real threat. While I hesitate to compare anyone with Vargo Hoat's scum, the White Walkers are similar insofar as on the basis of the evidence discussed above they are not dangerous in themselves, except to lonely travellers in the woods, but just as the Brave Companions thrive in the chaos of a war gone bad, so the White Walkers flourish in the cold, but without that cold...

And that's why Bran the Greenseer's role is so important.

[FanTasy]

Yes, his initial dream when he first meets the three-eyed crow showed him something purely evil, something powerful enough for Bran to cry out in fear and wake up from his coma. And ... to decide to call his direwolf Summer.

^{ETA AGOT Bran III}

^{Bran looks beyond the Wall.}

^{<He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.}

^{Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.}

^{"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.}

^{Because winter is coming.>}

^{<Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.>}

^{<Death reached for him, screaming. Bran spread his arms and flew.>}

^{<Bran looked up calmly. "His name is Summer," he said.}

[kissdbyfire]

Thanks for the kind words all, and Val, its always nice to know somebody reads this stuff; and don't be afraid to chime in. It was Capon Breath who came up with the wonderfully simple suggestion that the Wall was built to contain the Winter...

Thanks, Black Crow, for everything. I second what Ibbison's said upthread wholeheartedly.

If there was a vote for 'best thread host', you'd win it hands down. :cheers:

I like your summary a lot, I've been mulling over since I read it earlier. I do have a few things to say about it and I have a few questions as well. I'm just trying to organise it somewhat inside my head before posting something too convoluted and confused. :eek:

[kissdbyfire]

Thanks! Sure, the moment I have something important to add I will! By now I'm fine stalking you all in a non creepy way :D

:lmao:

Val, I really liked that link you've posted elsewhere (Barleycorn)!

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Heresy thread, so called because this is where we challenge the orthodoxy that sometime soon the Others are going to threaten all mankind and only our heroes can stop them.

Instead we look at who the Others really are, the seemingly human origin of the White Walkers and the possibility that there may be a link with the Starks, as well as slightly more mundane matters such as working out the true history of Westeros given that the official version as retold by Maester Luwin is riddled with inconsistencies, declared by Sam to be unreliable and admitted by GRRM to be “misty”.

The main thrust of what we've been discussing over these threads can be summarised as:

1. uncertainty as to whether the Wall was originally built to stop the Others many years after the Pact was agreed, or whether the Children unleashed the Winter and then used the Wall to hold it back after the First Men agreed to the Pact

2. a growing suspicion that Azor Ahai (whoever he was) belongs to the Andal period, when they slaughtered the Children in the six southern kingdoms

3. that the Night's Watch defeat of the Others in "The Night that Ended" also belongs to this period, possibly relating to the Night's King, and resulted in the final expulsion of the Children from the kingdoms below the Wall.

4. although not much discussed of late, the involvement of the Starks in all of this remains unclear but a connection to the Children and possibly the White Walkers seems a strong possibility.

Those preceding threads can be found below:

http://asoiaf.wester...ost__p__2822016

http://asoiaf.wester...ost__p__2858186

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60387-heresy-3/

Speculative Theory #1: Maybe the Wall was actually built to hold back men rather than the others. Well, the theory is contrary to the stories and traditions--which we've seen GRMM repeatedly tell us are usually based mostly on truth, like the old story about the crows talking. There theory the COTF went north to hide behind the wall is contrary to other things we've been told. The terms of the pact with the first men and the COTF give the COTF the forests and the bogs. We see from the COTF at High Heart and its hinted that the Green Men show that at least some COTF remain in the south, even up till the GOT time. I thought the Joramun story, that he helped build the wall and then later lead an army south, was a strong hint that Joramun disagreed with the idea that the Wall was meant to keep men above the Wall.

Speculative Theory #2: That Azor Ahai belongs to the Andal period. We have no evidence Azor Ahai was a Westoros hero. His story is an Essos story. We know from the tale told by Sallador Saan to Davos that most in Westoros don't know the AA story. It seemed to me that the place name "Asshai" was clearly an amalgation of the old hero's name: Azor Ahai=> Asshai.

Speculative Theory #3: That the NW defeated the others. Well, its contrary to the stories, which state the others were chased north, then the wall was built and the NW formed to man the wall.

Speculative Theory #4: Since the early Starks were supposedly around when the Others were fought and the Wall was built (and the stories say that the COTF helped fight the Others and helped Brandon "the builder" Stark build the Wall) one would reasonably assume the Starks dealt with both the COTF and the Others, with the COTF as the allies and the Others as the enemies.

If GRMM lives to 110, keeps his health, and has the desire, he can finish write the story of the Long Night and the fight between Others and everyone else. Or as this thread supposes create an enormous conspiracy to build an ice wall filled with spells designed to keep out the others but its really meant, pursuant to the conspiracy, to keep out men--a tale which to me makes little or no sense. Why wld either the the first men or the COTF do such a thing? The pact--an agreement of peace-- seemed to work well enough for the COTF and the First Men without building a giant wall of ice on top of it.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

:lmao:

Val, I really liked that link you've posted elsewhere (Barleycorn)!

Sorry for the off topic I'm about to do: The Corn King, huh? ^_^ I love pagan mythology and I knew about the Corn King myth so when I read about Tom Barleycorn and the raven saying: Corn.King.Snow. Jon Snow I thought: Can't be a coincidence! It kinda bothered me the idea of Jon being AA that seems to be related to the Red God and not to the Old Gods that he follows, so this one seems a nice pagan version of him. I might be wrong of course and it's just a coincidence but I love to overthink haha

And thanks Black Crow, your posts are always good quality, I love to read about this stuff :thumbsup:

[Elaena Targaryen]

@Black Crow, I appreciate the thread and have been reading since you started, so I want to echo all of the sentiments already posted. I also appreciate everyone that has posted on the thread, especially from the beginning. I’m glad that Black Crow wants to take a closer look at the white walkers. I have some really crackpot thoughts that I need to get out of my mind. Please bear with me, I think I get way more crackpot then the rest of you, sorry. (I’m just weird)

Ok, I need to explain my thought process from the start so you can understand better. When I first read that Sam killed an other and it melted, armor and all, it got me thinking. I started to wonder if they attacked near lakes because we were told the white walkers have been sleeping under the ice. So since they are essentially liquid I thought maybe they were sleeping in the lakes, under the ice. I obviously let that go, it’s kind of crazy. But with things like creepy Patchface, dead things in the water at Hardhome, and the Iron Island mantra (maybe a warning like “winter is coming may” be a warning) “what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.” I didn’t really put too much thought into all of that; it was something that just popped in my head.

I like the idea that maybe the COTF accidentally unleashed winter and it does tie into their nature aspect, winter is a part of nature. So I thought maybe when the COTF called the hammer of waters and broke the arm of Dorne it could connect to the ww. The children using water like this threw off the balance of nature causing the first long night and the white walkers are a by-product of that (they seem connected to water as well as ice, winter, and the white mist) What if the ww are the scouts or the front lines and there could be ‘other’ things coming too. (I really like to think crazy and I know it’s not supported in the text, sorry just having fun) So the Wall had to go up to hold back the winter and everything that comes with it.

This could tie in to Moat Cailin as well. Everyone has been speculating that something went wrong there. Maybe one of the children started to call the hammer of waters again and he was stopped because of the consequences. It led to the bogs and the broken children’s tower. So it unleashed winter and the ww again but it wasn’t as strong of an imbalance as last time, and the COTF were able to contain it easier with their magic. With their ‘dwindling’ they can’t contain it by themselves any longer so we are seeing the progression of winter and ww, maybe Bran can help with this.

*ETA: Maybe that is why the children went/fled north of the wall, to contain winter and the ww. Maybe the term 'others' refer to white walkers, wights, dead things in the water, ect.*

I do not buy into all of that, I only needed to clear my mind. Personally I like the idea of Starks being the ww maybe through magic gone wrong from the Night’s King. I do have a problem with the white walkers being evil and hell bent on destroying all life. Mance spent years trying to convince all the tribes and villages of the free folk to go south of the wall. The ww did not scare these people enough to want to leave on their own. So the white walkers have been back for some time and the ww didn’t really even attack when the free folk moved south. The FF were only concerned about burning their dead so the dead don’t come back as wights, wights seem to be the real problem here. Are wights a side effect of ww, winter, or the white mist?

[kissdbyfire]

Ok, I need to explain my thought process from the start so you can understand better. When I first read that Sam killed an other and it melted, armor and all, it got me thinking. I started to wonder if they attacked near lakes because we were told the white walkers have been sleeping under the ice. So since they are essentially liquid I thought maybe they were sleeping in the lakes, under the ice. I obviously let that go, it’s kind of crazy. But with things like creepy Patchface, dead things in the water at Hardhome, and the Iron Island mantra (maybe a warning like “winter is coming may” be a warning) “what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.” I didn’t really put too much thought into all of that; it was something that just popped in my head.

Intersting! I think I'm beginning to buy into the 'winter' issue a bit more. Actually, if we think of 'winter' as an entity of sorts, the Stark motto makes even more sense in a way, 'Winter is coming'.

Also like the connection you've made with the ironmen 'what is dead yada' bit. Could their resurrection followed by CPR be a way to try and create their own wights? In a way similar to what we've discussed about the Boltons trying to 'skin change' because they wanted to skinchange? Never mind, it's just crazy ideas.

As to the WW being evil or hell-bent on destroying life, I don't think that is the case but I think they may be incompatible with life as we know it. Also, I think they did attack the free folk and they seemed (to me) to be very afraid of them. I've just read the ADwD chapter (Jon) where the free folk finally come south of the Wall, and Tormund has a few things to say about it there (and some things that seem to support the 'winter' issue).

[Lady of Long Lake]

@Black Crow, I appreciate the thread and have been reading since you started, so I want to echo all of the sentiments already posted. I also appreciate everyone that has posted on the thread, especially from the beginning. I’m glad that Black Crow wants to take a closer look at the white walkers. I have some really crackpot thoughts that I need to get out of my mind. Please bear with me, I think I get way more crackpot then the rest of you, sorry. (I’m just weird)

Ok, I need to explain my thought process from the start so you can understand better. When I first read that Sam killed an other and it melted, armor and all, it got me thinking. I started to wonder if they attacked near lakes because we were told the white walkers have been sleeping under the ice. So since they are essentially liquid I thought maybe they were sleeping in the lakes, under the ice. I obviously let that go, it’s kind of crazy. But with things like creepy Patchface, dead things in the water at Hardhome, and the Iron Island mantra (maybe a warning like “winter is coming may” be a warning) “what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.” I didn’t really put too much thought into all of that; it was something that just popped in my head.

I like the idea that maybe the COTF accidentally unleashed winter and it does tie into their nature aspect, winter is a part of nature. So I thought maybe when the COTF called the hammer of waters and broke the arm of Dorne it could connect to the ww. The children using water like this threw off the balance of nature causing the first long night and the white walkers are a by-product of that (they seem connected to water as well as ice, winter, and the white mist) What if the ww are the scouts or the front lines and there could be ‘other’ things coming too. (I really like to think crazy and I know it’s not supported in the text, sorry just having fun) So the Wall had to go up to hold back the winter and everything that comes with it.

This could tie in to Moat Cailin as well. Everyone has been speculating that something went wrong there. Maybe one of the children started to call the hammer of waters again and he was stopped because of the consequences. It led to the bogs and the broken children’s tower. So it unleashed winter and the ww again but it wasn’t as strong of an imbalance as last time, and the COTF were able to contain it easier with their magic. With their ‘dwindling’ they can’t contain it by themselves any longer so we are seeing the progression of winter and ww, maybe Bran can help with this.

I REALLY like this idea of yours! I wiki'd ice age and here's what it says:

Causes of ice ages

The causes of ice ages are not fully understood for both the large-scale ice age periods and the smaller ebb and flow of glacial–interglacial periods within an ice age. The consensus is that several factors are important: atmospheric composition, such as the concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane (the specific levels of the previously mentioned gases are now able to be seen with the new ice core samples from the Antarctic shelf over the past 650,000 years);^{[citation needed]} changes in the Earth's orbit around the Sun known as Milankovitch cycles (and possibly the Sun's orbit around the galaxy); the motion of tectonic plates resulting in changes in the relative location and amount of continental and oceanic crust on the Earth's surface, which affect wind and ocean currents; variations in solar output; the orbital dynamics of the Earth-Moon system; and the impact of relatively large meteorites, and volcanism including eruptions of supervolcanoes.^[citati

So when the COTF brought down the hammer in their wrath, it might have caused a mini ice age, or a long winter in Westerosi terms. It does mention volcanoes too causing ice ages. We know there is a few hot spots already- Valyria, Hard Home possibly, Dragonstone too if there is obsidien/dragonglass mined at it.

[Black Crow]

This certainly bears thinking on. As I mentioned in a response to an earlier post by Free Northman, one of the overarching themes of the saga is that of unintended consequences. We've been discussing the theory that it was the Children who called down the Winter, but its being an unintended consequence of the Hammer would fit as easily, if not more so than a deliberate act in itself. That being said there's still the intervention of the Last Hero to be considered. With Old Nan being interrupted we don't know how that one turned out but it would still be reasonable to think that the Children acted to contain the Winter after he cried Pax, rather than acting sooner to correct an accidental event.

As to the White Walkers, bear with me. I'm not promising anything new and exciting, just a thoughful look at the available evidence and before that I want to sort out the this business of the Andals and the breaking of the Pact, albeit that everything else they are to a degree interrelated.

[kissdbyfire]

After Black Crow's summary I decided to go back and search for more info on the CotF. I've found a few bits in the text that I think may explain the way I understand some of it. Some snippets from AGoT – also from maester Luwin’s lesson to Bran and Rickon:

No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war.

This again makes me think that the war between the First Men and the CotF was more because they didn’t know/understand each other, ‘fear of the unknown’, ‘fear of those that are different than you’. To me it doesn’t seem to be a war of irreconcilable differences or over dominion (power).

Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

I know this may mean nothing. But I think GRRM’s choice of words is very deliberate and purposeful. The fact that the ‘wise of both races prevailed’ makes me think that after ‘some’ (and some can mean a lengthier period) confrontations, the wise of both races managed to convince their respective sides that there was no reason to keep on fighting and that a peaceful coexistence was possible.

There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children’s, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm.

This again seems important to me, and again, I think it’s a deliberate and purposeful choice of words. I’ll wrap it up after the next bit.

Bran’s fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. “But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said.”

“Here, they are,” said Osha, as she bit off the end of the last bandage with her teeth north of the Wall, things are different. That’s where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races.”

Maester Luwin sighed. “Woman, by rights you ought to be dead or in chains." [...]

“Tell me where they went,” Bran said. “I want to know.”

“Me too,” Rickon echoed.

“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered. “So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—”

Summer began to howl.

The way I understand this is: the Pact endured so long as the ‘kingdoms of the First Men held sway’. The Andal invasion didn’t end the Pact (then; and for all I know, it may even have endured until the Conquest despite the fact that the CotF had gone north of the Wall – possibly – by then) because the Andals were thrown back every time by the King in the North. The Andals then burn and hack all the weirwoods and slaughter the CotF where they found them – well, they never got north of the neck and prior to the invasion the CotF where everywhere in Westeros. So, the Andals killed the CotF and destroyed the weirwoods that were south of the Neck and the CotF fled north—of the Neck.

[FanTasy]

While re-reading some bits about the Children what struck me was where they lived.

Luwin in AGOT Bran VII

"They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns."

Eh ... crannogs? Always read right over it. An obvious link to the Children, the people of the Neck and House Reed, I think.

Interestingly I googled that there are multiple meanings for 'crannog'. It can mean an artificial island but also ... crow's nest.

Jojen, when recovering from greyscale, was visited by a crow who told him about a chained wolf and after he told this dream to his father Howland send his son to Winterfell to help Bran.

In Bran VII there is also mentioning of a Marsh King in the Neck, who was defeated by a Stark. Rickard Stark, the son of Jon Stark who fought sea raiders and built the castle at White Harbor. His son Rickard took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter

The Marsh King may have been a Reed. According to the wiki the Reeds swore oaths of fealty to the Starks when the Starks were Kings, thousands of years ago.

Who were they loyal to before? To themselves or to the Children?

[alienarea]

Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

To me this reads like the chiefs of the First Men are equivalent to the greenseers of the COTF while the heroes match the wood dancers.

On a very high level that looks like a priest-king (COTF) vs. warrior king (First Men) conflict. We had priest-kings in the old testament as well, not sure how that ended.

I like the hinted at connection between the white walkers, winter and water.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Indeed, a fine summary BC!

I have a doubt if we can take what Maester Luwin says about the Children using dark magic at face value, but as in so many cases in this story - that is all we have to go on when trying to make sense of the events in the distant past.

That's my feeling too. The Citadel hates magic, dragons and all supernatural things.

[Black Crow]

The way I understand this is: the Pact endured so long as the ‘kingdoms of the First Men held sway’. The Andal invasion didn’t end the Pact (then; and for all I know, it may even have endured until the Conquest despite the fact that the CotF had gone north of the Wall – possibly – by then) because the Andals were thrown back every time by the King in the North. The Andals then burn and hack all the weirwoods and slaughter the CotF where they found them – well, they never got north of the neck and prior to the invasion the CotF where everywhere in Westeros. So, the Andals killed the CotF and destroyed the weirwoods that were south of the Neck and the CotF fled north—of the Neck.

Once again we've got one of GRRM's interruptions, because Luwin doesn't say they fled north of the Neck at all. Osha has already said that they went north of the Wall and when Luwin follows this up by explaining about the Andals he's cut off by Summer's howling before he can finish that sentence. It could simply be interpreted as "fled north of the Neck", but the fact he was cut off suggests there was something more to tell; to give his version of why they kept going and beyond the Wall.

This is something I want to discuss properly in Professor Crow's next essay, but what I would say is that's its worth remembering that the Children aren't human and therefore may not be inclined to draw a distinction between the First Men and the Andals. The Pact was made with Men, and then broken by other Men.

[kissdbyfire]

Once again we've got one of GRRM's interruptions, because Luwin doesn't say they fled north of the Neck at all. Osha has already said that they went north of the Wall and when Luwin follows this up by explaining about the Andals he's cut off by Summer's howling before he can finish that sentence. It could simply be interpreted as "fled north of the Neck", but the fact he was cut off suggests there was something more to tell; to give his version of why they kept going and beyond the Wall.

This is something I want to discuss properly in Professor Crow's next essay, but what I would say is that's its worth remembering that the Children aren't human and therefore may not be inclined to draw a distinction between the First Men and the Andals. The Pact was made with Men, and then broken by other Men.

‘Professor Crow’, love it! :thumbsup:

Yeah, I see what you’re saying, and I could argue the exact opposite: that the way it reads up to Summer’s interruption is that the CotF fled north of Wall (reinforced by Osha’s comment) but that he was going to say ‘north of the Neck’.

I just wanted to explain that my take on this is not based solely on wishful thinking or whatever, and to share what jumped at me when I read those bits I’ve quoted.

On a different issue, I’m really starting to buy into the whole ‘winter’ thing, I think it makes sense but there are so many dots I can’t connect, it’s infuriating! There’s quite a lengthy conversation between Jon and Tormund in ADwD (the one before last Jon chapter) where Tormund says several things that support this.

What do you guys think is that place BR ‘shows’ Bran? Have we talked about that before?

I can’t remember... :eek:

[hotweaselsoup]

What do you guys think is that place BR ‘shows’ Bran? Have we talked about that before?

I can’t remember... :eek:

Whatever is in the "heart of winter" is the key to everything, I think. It could be a thing, a place, a person - who knows? The one thing we do know is that Bran seems to immediately recognize whatever it is, and is terrified by what he sees.

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

It's the central mystery.