Blue Roses

[Valyarian rose]

On this site the citadel has a very solid argument for R+L=J. It breaks down the time line and about where everybody was during Jon's conception and how damn near imposoble it is for Jon to be anybody else's child but lyanna's

For me, it's agonizing to continue to believe in R + L = J when there are people out there who are trying to disprove the theory, and they have every right to do so, but I hate that it puts doubt in my head. :( I don't want to doubt who I believe Jon really is.

And we all know G.R.R.M doesn't go online reading the theories people have of his characters, so if Jon really turns out to be who he is, I will be very happy that it came out of his own story creation though most of us are already firm believers in R + L = J.

I'm just scared I am believing in a theory, and what if it turns out to be wrong? :( Then again, all the subtle symbolism we've been given about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna is definitely something that can't be ignored...

[Neeps on a Breastplate]

I scoured the first four books via Kindle (don't have the fifth) for every relevant mention of roses. The first two were the only ones that had good hits. Here's what I found:

A Game of Thrones

Ned's Memory: Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. (p. 40)

Ned's Memory: Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. (p. 40)

(Dead and black, not blue. As far as I'm concerned, these are the roses from the tourney, which Lyanna only would have kept if she were in love with Rhaegar.)

Ned's Dream: As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. (p. 410)

(Here the petals are blue, but note that this is a dream, where the symbolic significance of the impossible blue rose is more important.)

Conversation with Cersei / Ned's Memory: "He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.” Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. (p. 470)

Ned's Dream: “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. (p. 484)

(In this dream, she is wearing the garland -- which was actually placed in her lap. Clothes are always symbolic of the roles that people take on, so the fact that she has been been crowned in Ned's dream suggests that she willingly reciprocated Rhaegar's advances. The tears of blood, a common martyr symbol, show that she paid the blood price.)

Ned's Dream: Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost... Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. (p. 608)

(Lyanna died because of her involvement with Rhaegar, but this dream shows that Ned still feels like he has also paid in blood. So what does it mean when Ned reaches out and grabs the laurel? Possibly his agreement to keep Lyanna's terrible secret about having a half-Targaryen baby, which Robert would surely want to slaughter.)

Ned's Memory: Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. (p. 608)

A Clash of Kings

Dany's Vision: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . (p. 530)

(Here it says "flower," but later, in conversation, it's referred to as "a blue rose" (p. 660). For me, this is the clincher. How can this not be Jon Snow?? I also love the tie-in between their "sweetness" and how Lyanna "loved the scent of winter roses" in AGOT. )

Conversation with Ygritte: he never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?...Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain…Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. (p. 560-561)

(If this blue rose / forbidden love / quietly adopted lovechild business doesn't foreshadow R+L=J, I don't know what does.)

Jon's Dream: The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. (p. 609)

(Interesting that Jon's dream so closely resembles Ned's from AGOT. I wonder how much of the Lyanna story the Stark children know? More importantly, you'll notice that Jon also sees Lyanna crowned by the roses like Ned did. To me, that also foreshadows the idea that Jon will eventually come into his own as the rightful king.)

[Little Wing]

Didn't Jon have a dream of roses in ADWD? Have to check...

[Blindsie]

Jon's Dream: The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. (p. 609)

This is actually Theon's dream.

[Fire Eater]

The blue rose is traditionally associated with royal blood, and denote regal majesty and splendor.

[Devaki Khanna]

I scoured the first four books via Kindle (don't have the fifth) for every relevant mention of roses. The first two were the only ones that had good hits. Here's what I found:

A Game of Thrones

Ned's Memory: Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. (p. 40)

Ned's Memory: Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. (p. 40)

(Dead and black, not blue. As far as I'm concerned, these are the roses from the tourney, which Lyanna only would have kept if she were in love with Rhaegar.)

Ned's Dream: As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. (p. 410)

(Here the petals are blue, but note that this is a dream, where the symbolic significance of the impossible blue rose is more important.)

Conversation with Cersei / Ned's Memory: "He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.” Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. (p. 470)

Ned's Dream: “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. (p. 484)

(In this dream, she is wearing the garland -- which was actually placed in her lap. Clothes are always symbolic of the roles that people take on, so the fact that she has been been crowned in Ned's dream suggests that she willingly reciprocated Rhaegar's advances. The tears of blood, a common martyr symbol, show that she paid the blood price.)

Ned's Dream: Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost... Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. (p. 608)

(Lyanna died because of her involvement with Rhaegar, but this dream shows that Ned still feels like he has also paid in blood. So what does it mean when Ned reaches out and grabs the laurel? Possibly his agreement to keep Lyanna's terrible secret about having a half-Targaryen baby, which Robert would surely want to slaughter.)

Ned's Memory: Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. (p. 608)

A Clash of Kings

Dany's Vision: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . (p. 530)

(Here it says "flower," but later, in conversation, it's referred to as "a blue rose" (p. 660). For me, this is the clincher. How can this not be Jon Snow?? I also love the tie-in between their "sweetness" and how Lyanna "loved the scent of winter roses" in AGOT. )

Conversation with Ygritte: he never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?...Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain…Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. (p. 560-561)

(If this blue rose / forbidden love / quietly adopted lovechild business doesn't foreshadow R+L=J, I don't know what does.)

Jon's Dream: The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. (p. 609)

(Interesting that Jon's dream so closely resembles Ned's from AGOT. I wonder how much of the Lyanna story the Stark children know? More importantly, you'll notice that Jon also sees Lyanna crowned by the roses like Ned did. To me, that also foreshadows the idea that Jon will eventually come into his own as the rightful king.)

This last one is not Jon's dream, but Theon's.

[Jacen Weyne]

It is very interesting, have to admit that I missed some of these references, but the blue roses clearly mean something, otherwise Martin wouldn't have put it in the books so often. I think this is a very strong indication of the R+L=J theory.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey @Neeps on a Breastplate

A Clash of Kings

[...]

Jon's Dream: The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. (p. 609)

(Interesting that Jon's dream so closely resembles Ned's from AGOT. I wonder how much of the Lyanna story the Stark children know? More importantly, you'll notice that Jon also sees Lyanna crowned by the roses like Ned did. To me, that also foreshadows the idea that Jon will eventually come into his own as the rightful king.)

I cannot find that one :-( Is it really in ACoK?

This is actually Theon's dream.

Where do I find that one? Is it really in ACoK?

Didn't Jon have a dream of roses in ADWD? Have to check...

Did you find it?

The blue rose is traditionally associated with royal blood, and denote regal majesty and splendor.

Is it? I know it is a key element of the original romantic poetry movement and stands for longing, but also for romanticism and romantic poetry themselves.

[Blazfemur]

alright, regarding r+l=j, i have a theory, and it includes the ghost of high heart and her prophesies (arya chapters with brotherhood).

in a dany chapter, she asks barristan (at the moment, arstan), to tell her about her brother, rhaegar. barristan tells dany he was always sad, and the only time he was happy was when he'd bring his harp to summerhall and be there, all by himself. that he always would return sad, and depressed, talking about tears, and dead kings, etc. they say the summerhall tragedy directly was the day rhaegar was born.

there's an arya chapter, literally the next chapter in the book (asos), where the brotherhood meet with the old, dwarven lady that prophesizes things, and charges the brotherhood with a song from tom o'sevens, that old jenny song that always brings her to tears every single time, as payment for the dreams she has. when arya confrotns the dwarf (the ghost of high heart), the dwarf excaims she had enough grief at summerhall, she'll have none of hers.

my theory is the following (in chronological order):

summerhall tragedy occurs regarding the targaryens. it's said the tragedy was based off of people trying to hatch actual dragons.

instead, the hatching of the dragon was metaphorical, as this is rhaegar's birthday.

rhaegar reads about the tragedy it in a book, and thats the day he decides he needs to be a knight (another dany chapter, barristan tells her one day he read a book and decides to become a knight)

rhaegar visits the ruined summerhall, meets the ghost of high heart there (whom i believe is a cotfm, a greenseer, green dreams and all).

rhaegar returns with his harp, playing for the ghost of high heart, who tells him his history and, perhaps, events to come as he plays old jenny for her.

rhaegar meets lyanna (not at harrenhal tourny, but before)

rhaegar and lyanna secretly have an affair, secretly meeting at summerhall frequently.

ghost of high heart reveals more info to rhaegar of future events, rhaegar continues sadness as he learns of dead kings (his father, perhaps). ghost of high heart may have pushed events to happen

tournament at harrenhall happens, and lyanna is pregnant with rhaegars child. rhaegar gives lyanna blue roses, because the ghost of harrenhal told him it would be a boy, and this was rhaegar's way of telling lyanna. this prompts robert's rage.

robert vs rhaegar. me personally, i think rhaegar threw the fight, i have a hard time believing even robert could beat rhaegar. i think rhaegar knew even more still, and threw the fight on purpose. why? we still dont know (unless one of you may have a theory).

flash forward to tower of joy, and lyanna having a boy just as the ghost predicted and rhaegar told her throught he roses, and lyanna begging ned to keep their child a secret from robert or robert would kill the baby.

bam

jon targaryen, is the song of ice and fire, a stark and targaryen, the balance between both.

[J. Stargaryen]

alright, regarding r+l=j, i have a theory, and it includes the ghost of high heart and her prophesies (arya chapters with brotherhood).

in a dany chapter, she asks barristan (at the moment, arstan), to tell her about her brother, rhaegar. barristan tells dany he was always sad, and the only time he was happy was when he'd bring his harp to summerhall and be there, all by himself. that he always would return sad, and depressed, talking about tears, and dead kings, etc. they say the summerhall tragedy directly was the day rhaegar was born.

there's an arya chapter, literally the next chapter in the book (asos), where the brotherhood meet with the old, dwarven lady that prophesizes things, and charges the brotherhood with a song from tom o'sevens, that old jenny song that always brings her to tears every single time, as payment for the dreams she has. when arya confrotns the dwarf (the ghost of high heart), the dwarf excaims she had enough grief at summerhall, she'll have none of hers.

my theory is the following (in chronological order):

summerhall tragedy occurs regarding the targaryens. it's said the tragedy was based off of people trying to hatch actual dragons.

instead, the hatching of the dragon was metaphorical, as this is rhaegar's birthday.

rhaegar reads about the tragedy it in a book, and thats the day he decides he needs to be a knight (another dany chapter, barristan tells her one day he read a book and decides to become a knight)

rhaegar visits the ruined summerhall, meets the ghost of high heart there (whom i believe is a cotfm, a greenseer, green dreams and all).

rhaegar returns with his harp, playing for the ghost of high heart, who tells him his history and, perhaps, events to come as he plays old jenny for her.

rhaegar meets lyanna (not at harrenhal tourny, but before)

rhaegar and lyanna secretly have an affair, secretly meeting at summerhall frequently.

ghost of high heart reveals more info to rhaegar of future events, rhaegar continues sadness as he learns of dead kings (his father, perhaps). ghost of high heart may have pushed events to happen

tournament at harrenhall happens, and lyanna is pregnant with rhaegars child. rhaegar gives lyanna blue roses, because the ghost of harrenhal told him it would be a boy, and this was rhaegar's way of telling lyanna. this prompts robert's rage.

robert vs rhaegar. me personally, i think rhaegar threw the fight, i have a hard time believing even robert could beat rhaegar. i think rhaegar knew even more still, and threw the fight on purpose. why? we still dont know (unless one of you may have a theory).

flash forward to tower of joy, and lyanna having a boy just as the ghost predicted and rhaegar told her throught he roses, and lyanna begging ned to keep their child a secret from robert or robert would kill the baby.

bam

jon targaryen, is the song of ice and fire, a stark and targaryen, the balance between both.

Jon was born about two years after the Tourney at Harrenhal, so there is no way that Lyanna was pregnant with Jon then. Also, there's nothing in the text hinting at R&L meeting prior to that event.

I highly doubt Rhaegar threw his fight with Robert. Robert was bigger, stronger, more experienced in battle and his warhammer was a superior weapon against plate armor.

I saw your theory in the main forum and I can buy the stuff about Rhaegar meeting the GoHH, but some of the other parts don't fit with what we know.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I've been looking into rose symbolism, and have a question.

Can we confidently expect that blue roses carry the same meaning in the world of aSoIaF as in our world?

In real life, blue roses don't exist. Roses simply don't carry a gene capable of creating blue pigment. Therefore, blue roses symbolize the unobtainable. (If roses = love, blue roses = unobtainable love.)

In Westeros, blue roses actually exist. They're real. How does that effect their symbolic value?

[J. Stargaryen]

I've been looking into rose symbolism, and have a question.

Can we confidently expect that blue roses carry the same meaning in the world of aSoIaF as in our world?

In real life, blue roses don't exist. Roses simply don't carry a gene capable of creating blue pigment. Therefore, blue roses symbolize the unobtainable. (If roses = love, blue roses = unobtainable love.)

In Westeros, blue roses actually exist. They're real. How does that effect their symbolic value?

I think it wouldn't. Symbolic meanings are for the readers, not in story characters. As far as the series goes, I would say you more or less combine the applicable real world meanings with the in story stuff; e.g., winter, Winterfell, Stark maidens and their sons, etc.

Blue roses also symbolize mystery and love at first sight. Blue is also associated with royalty, so blue roses can play into that, as Fire Eater mentions up thread.

[xspicer89x]

In real life, blue roses don't exist. Roses simply don't carry a gene capable of creating blue pigment. Therefore, blue roses symbolize the unobtainable. (If roses = love, blue roses = unobtainable love.)

In Westeros, blue roses actually exist. They're real.

I like this. And if we take it together with the Ygritte conversation "no flower is so rare nor precious", I think you might be on to something here.

[Aetta]

Still wondering, as was asked earlier in this thread, why would Rhaegar happen to have a crown made from a very rare flower, that is symbolic of a Stark daughter, handy for the tournament?

I wonder if this was simply a (early in the story) tool for the author to move forward with all of the examples given here so far, or if GRRM specifically thought this through and wanted us to know that Rhaegar knew, even before the tourney, what would happen, and who Lyanna would be to him.

[J. Stargaryen]

Still wondering, as was asked earlier in this thread, why would Rhaegar happen to have a crown made from a very rare flower, that is symbolic of a Stark daughter, handy for the tournament?

I wonder if this was simply a (early in the story) tool for the author to move forward with all of the examples given here so far, or if GRRM specifically thought this through and wanted us to know that Rhaegar knew, even before the tourney, what would happen, and who Lyanna would be to him.

The flower's association with Winterfell would have been enough to prompt Rhaegar to choose blue roses for the crown.

But, we don't even know whose idea it was to use blue roses for the QoLaB's crown, or even at what point during the tournament it was put together, as far as I'm aware. Unless someone knows how these things are generally supposed to work.

Btw, the flower isn't really symbolic of Stark daughters in story. Especially not prior to Lyanna receiving the crown of roses from Rhaegar. Before that, Bael's story was an isolated incident. It's only when we compare the two cases that we see the parallels that lead us to conclusions about the symbolism; e.g., "Stark daughters" (and their sons).

[Mithras]

The flower's association with Winterfell would have been enough to prompt Rhaegar to choose blue roses for the crown.

But, we don't even know whose idea it was to use blue roses for the QoLaB's crown, or even at what point during the tournament it was put together, as far as I'm aware. Unless someone knows how these things are generally supposed to work.

We learn from the Hedge Knight and the Mystery Knight that tourney matches can be fixed. I don't be surprised if Rhaegar was supposed to be the winner from the beginning. Lord Whent declared the tourney after a visit from his brother Oswell, who was also present when Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (if I remember correctly) and stayed at ToJ until the end.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Still wondering, as was asked earlier in this thread, why would Rhaegar happen to have a crown made from a very rare flower, that is symbolic of a Stark daughter, handy for the tournament?

I wonder if this was simply a (early in the story) tool for the author to move forward with all of the examples given here so far, or if GRRM specifically thought this through and wanted us to know that Rhaegar knew, even before the tourney, what would happen, and who Lyanna would be to him.

The Harrenhal Tourney was in the Year of the False Spring. Winter (blue) roses were probably the only roses blooming at the time.

[lakin1013]

In reading this thread, I idly wondered about blue roses so I searched some sites to learn more about them. From a site called Roses for Love, I found this statement about the receiver of blue roses: A truly wonderful personality, almost chimera-like (underlining mine) is what the blue rose says about the receiver.

A chimera in genetics, is an individual who has genetically distinct cells. A chimera may have two different blood types, or even male and female sex organs. Wikipedia tells me that ... Normally, chimerism is not visible on casual inspection; however, it has been detected in the course of proving parentage.

I am not a geneticist or a botanist but the idea of Jon being both the song of fire and the song of ice springs to my mind immediately.

[Aetta]

The Harrenhal Tourney was in the Year of the False Spring. Winter (blue) roses were probably the only roses blooming at the time.

Nice! Thanks, this explains it better than happenstance, and is more likely than some thick plot with no other evidence of a thick plotting.

[i_am_no_one]

In reading this thread, I idly wondered about blue roses so I searched some sites to learn more about them. From a site called Roses for Love, I found this statement about the receiver of blue roses: A truly wonderful personality, almost chimera-like (underlining mine) is what the blue rose says about the receiver.

A chimera in genetics, is an individual who has genetically distinct cells. A chimera may have two different blood types, or even male and female sex organs. Wikipedia tells me that ... Normally, chimerism is not visible on casual inspection; however, it has been detected in the course of proving parentage.

I am not a geneticist or a botanist but the idea of Jon being both the song of fire and the song of ice springs to my mind immediately.

Gah! This is so wonderful! Thank you for sharing this!!