Stop Blaming Edmure!

[King_Roose_I]

You no what I don't actually think lord tywin would have besieged rivverun after the battle of the camps . To split his arm into 3 battles when robb could break the siege . Edmure went to give battle for his own pride . Lord tywin was moving through the lands and would of went west but no edmure had to go give battle it was silly. He seems impetuous and eager for praise . In war the glory hunters are the most dangerous men to follow

Makes complete sense to order Edmure to "hold Riverrun" if there is no chance at all for another siege on it by Tywin. Always a good idea to decieve your subordinate commanders so that they are forced to do the very thing you don't want them to do.

[Lummel]

It's a theme in the series that the best laid plans of mice and men so readily go awry and this is another example of this.

The assumption that Edmure's actions or inactions was the most important element is probably an unfair one. Potentially Edmure was a variant that Robb and the Blackfish could have better controlled - and that's why they are both so angry at him for being unable to read their minds, but really there was nothing they could have done that would have tempted Tywin away from being able to march on Kings Landing.

Kings Landing is the key. If Stannis had taken it and crowned himself king then everything is lost for Tywin, he becomes a rebel and his grandchildren are declared bastards before gods and men.

Robb is a bold sixteen year old who has to take big risks to offset his disadvantage in numbers and poor strategic position. Tywin has got time on his side once the bulk of the Tyrells had been won over to his side.

[Ran]

I've a vague recollection -- which I can't, at this moment, back up with proof, but I'm looking -- that GRRM has remarked on the incident and suggested that Robb and the Blackfish actually knew they were at least somewhat to blame... but they laid into Edmure, putting it all on him, to soften him up to accept the Frey marriage, since they saw little other choice going forward. Unjust and unfair? Yes. Politically expedient? Yes.

It's a rare example of political pragmatism from Robb, if I'm remembering correctly.

It's not in the SSM, near as I can see, but there's been many interviews and chats that I just link to, so I'll have to search through those.

[Peach Fuzz]

It's a theme in the series that the best laid plans of mice and men so readily go awry and this is another example of this.

The assumption that Edmure's actions or inactions was the most important element is probably an unfair one. Potentially Edmure was a variant that Robb and the Blackfish could have better controlled - and that's why they are both so angry at him for being unable to read their minds, but really there was nothing they could have done that would have tempted Tywin away from being able to march on Kings Landing.

Kings Landing is the key. If Stannis had taken it and crowned himself king then everything is lost for Tywin, he becomes a rebel and his grandchildren are declared bastards before gods and men.

Robb is a bold sixteen year old who has to take big risks to offset his disadvantage in numbers and poor strategic position. Tywin has got time on his side once the bulk of the Tyrells had been won over to his side.

I'm with you there KL is the key if stannis took it and robb did beat tywin in battle in the west regardless what he done to the Freys they woulnt have the might or power behind them to organise a rw type situation

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

A person’s epithet last centuries and completely overshadows the details of their lives. It’s not fair. But it’s true for praise and blame.

Richard is Coeur de Lion, William is the Conqueror (and not The Bastard), Ivan is still Terrible, Charles VI wasn’t made of glass and is still Charles the Mad and Edmure is the “Tully who lost Riverrun”.

I think it’s the kind of thing that sticks.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

And “he’s not the only one who made a balls up of things” is surely damning with faint praise! Anybody got a suggestion for something positive Edmure did?

[Alexia]

I've a vague recollection -- which I can't, at this moment, back up with proof, but I'm looking -- that GRRM has remarked on the incident and suggested that Robb and the Blackfish actually knew they were at least somewhat to blame... but they laid into Edmure, putting it all on him, to soften him up to accept the Frey marriage, since they saw little other choice going forward. Unjust and unfair? Yes. Politically expedient? Yes.

It's a rare example of political pragmatism from Robb, if I'm remembering correctly.

It's not in the SSM, near as I can see, but there's been many interviews and chats that I just link to, so I'll have to search through those.

Ran, I'd be really interested to see this if you manage to find it. This is something that I just keep wondering what the authorial intention was. On one hand, a careful reading seems to completely exonerate Edmure. On the other hand, Catelyn makes some objections to what he did too and she is defintely portrayed as the voice of reason; the worse blunders that happened (The Sack of Winterfell, Sansa's marriage) came about because Robb wouldn't listen to her. So it is one of those things that I've been curious to know how GRRM perceived it as he was writing it.

And “he’s not the only one who made a balls up of things” is surely damning with faint praise! Anybody got a suggestion for something positive Edmure did?

He tried to help his smallfolk and seems to be the only lord who really cared about his smallfolk. I like him for that alone. And he did defeat Tywin Lannister in battle, that counts for something. I agree with the poster who said that he would have made a great peacetime lord.

[FanTasy]

double post, sorry

[FanTasy]

I think the mistake Robb and the Blackfish made considering what Edmure would do has a nice parallel in what Tywin expected Tyrion to do.

Tyrion's orders were: 'hold your position, defend the river'. Tyrion did, but this was not what Tywin expected and wanted. Tywin expected and wanted that Tyrion and his motley bunch would be defeated and that the result would be that the enemy was lured into a position where they could be beaten with greater effect.

Edmure's orders were: 'hold Riverrun'. He did, he also did what Robb did not expect and wanted.

Both cases show that in war failures are caused by bad communication as well as by faulty expectations, by underestimating what people can and will do.

I think Tywin as well as Robb underestimated Tyrion and Edmure and I agree with that it is not fair to blame Edmure for doing what he felt he had to do because it was what was expected from him: defend Riverrun.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

He tried to help his smallfolk and seems to be the only lord who really cared about his smallfolk. I like him for that alone. And he did defeat Tywin Lannister in battle, that counts for something. I agree with the poster who said that he would have made a great peacetime lord.

That's fair. Edmure the Unready then?

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think edmure the returner

[Talleyrand]

Edmure has a good heart, but he's prideful and incompetant

Incompetant? That's why he's the only person in the story to defeat Tywin Lannister and with nearly half the numbers no less.

[Peach Fuzz]

Incompetant? That's why he's the only person in the story to defeat Tywin Lannister and with nearly half the numbers no less.

Not in open battle he bloodied his nose he prevented them Fording the river. In open battle he would have been ripped a new Arsehole

[Fishay]

1) The Blackfish and Robb wanted Edmure to engage Tywin's forces and lose, but held his abilities in such contempt that they assumed he would certainly lose. Therefore, they decided not to tell him to make his fighting look more realistic, or something.

This. Though I don't think they held his abilities in a high contempt, more that they thought there was now way he could prevent the actual crossing. And they thought he would see that and let Tywin cross without much hassle. Though Rob/BF should have seen this coming due to his fighting Jaime Lannister in AGOT when he shouldn't have IIRC.

[Talleyrand]

Not in open battle he bloodied his nose he prevented them Fording the river. In open battle he would have been ripped a new Arsehole

It wasn't a simple bloodying of the nose, Tywin brought his full strength to bear in an attempt to cross those river and failed. It may not have been an open battle but it was a battle none the less and one that Edmure one. Its the sign of a good commander that Edmure didn't try and take him on in open battle and instead took advantage of choke points instead of going for open battle which you seem to think is the ultimate measure of a commander

[The GRRumbler]

I think Robb was a good comander in the battlefield but a terrible strategist in the greater scale of warfare in general, he always said he listened to everyone, but not really, had he listen to the commenders around him and his mother, maybe the outcome would be different, and judging by my experience in this forums, i don't really think Edmure gets that much blame at all.

[Gurkhal]

Kings Landing is the key. If Stannis had taken it and crowned himself king then everything is lost for Tywin, he becomes a rebel and his grandchildren are declared bastards before gods and men.

I'm not sure about this. As long as the Lannisters have Tommen, who was moved to Rosby if I'm not mistaken, then the Lannisters could crown him and proclaim him the successor to Joffrey and move him to the West in order to carry on the fight. Losing King's Landing would be a blow to the Lannister cause but I do not think it would be that kind of death blow.

[TheGreatjon]

Of course I can blame Edmure. Edmure commited the single greatest blunder of the war, the Battle of the Fords, I really think that was the event that doomed Robbs cause, if Tywin would have been able to cross the fords, he would have fell right into Robb Starks trap, and would have had no way to get back to KL in time for the Blackwater.

But that doesn't mean Edmure is completely to blame for that, I mean think about it, if it was so important that Tywin be let across the Ford, don't you think Robb and the BlackFish should have TOLD Edmure of there plan???? I mean to me THAT was the biggest blunder, I mean do they expect Edmure to just read there minds and know there plans? Edmure did what anyone else would have done in his position, deny them the crossing, now if he would have actually known it was Robbs plan all along that Tywin cross, I'm sure he would have let them, BUT NO ONE TOLD HIM LOL, that to me is a HUGE blunder on Robb and BF part. And they have the nerve to get mad at Edmure, I mean yeah its frustrating, but if your gonna have this big elaborate plan involving two seperate forces, wouldn't it help to actually COMMUNICATE with the seperate force to tell them your plans???

[TheGreatjon]

Sorry Double post

[TheGreatjon]

One thing I might point out though, to Edmure's fault, everyone keeps saying that Edmure was told to hold Riverrun, and he did exactly that. The problem there is, Tywin wasn't ATTACKING Riverrun, he was crossing the fords of the Red fork and going right past Riverrun, so Edmure did deviate from the plan somewhat, he was told to hold riverrun, NOT the crossing at the Red Fork.

But again, thats nitpicking, it seems obvious he would have tried to do that, Robb should have known. because appearantly this was such an important plan meant to end the war, but yet Robb of BF never saw it as important to inform Edmure of there plans, I might have done the same thing in his position.