Karma: as we sin so we are punished

[Ludovica]

Has anyone noticed that GRRM is following what the High Septon said ("as we sin so we are punished") in regards to the fate of his characters?

Ned.- killed Lady (an unforgiveable sin IMO) with "Ice", he is beheaded with it.

Jaime.- pushes Bran with his hand, and Vargo Hoat cuts it off.

Vargo Hoat.- cuts off Jaime's hand and then has his hands and feet cut off.

Tywin.- is said to shit gold, and is killed while shitting.

Theon.- flays the miller's boys and is flayed himself.

Robert.- behaves like a pig, is killed by a boar.

There are others but I'll let others post them. Also, can we predict from karma how other characters will be killed?

[Pliny]

Has anyone noticed that GRRM is following what the High Septon said ("as we sin so we are punished") in regards to the fate of his characters?

Ned.- killed Lady (an unforgiveable sin IMO) with "Ice", he is beheaded with it.

As much as I hated reading this part and seeing it in the episode, I don't think Ned "sinned" when he killed Lady. She was going to be killed anyway, but he chose to do the deed himself rather than let her be slaughtered by a stranger, scared and confused. Hopefully he was able to do it quickly.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Sansa.- is a vapid ninny who treats other people (her own brother and sister) like objects, becomes a pawn in Lord Littlefinger's game of thrones.

[Ludovica]

As much as I hated reading this part and seeing it in the episode, I don't think Ned "sinned" when he killed Lady. She was going to be killed anyway, but he chose to do the deed himself rather than let her be slaughtered by a stranger, scared and confused. Hopefully he was able to do it quickly.

Ned himself wonders if he hasn't indeed gone against the gods who might have sent his children the direwolves. This is not a judeo-christian sin, by any means, but he went against his gods, his family sigil, his daugthers, and his genuine self interest. And all for what? for Robert? for some narcisistic idea of honor? I like Ned, but he was wrong to kill that wolf. Had he stood up to Cersei on that, none of the rest might have happened.

[K1NGSLAYER]

Tywin.- is said to shit gold, and is killed while shitting.

I don't think shitting gold is a sin, lol. On topic though I have noticed that some of the characters that have sinned or done terrible things have been punished.

[Silmarien]

I don't by any means agree with Cersei's forced walk of shame, but you can see the parallel - she uses her feminine wiles and beauty to manipulate men to do her bidding, and ends up shamed in front of all of KL.

Ser Gregor Clegane committed countless atrocities - ends up taking weeks to die in excruciating pain due to Oberyn's poison.

Not that I condone Jeyne Poole's treatment by Ramsay; but she calls Arya "Horseface" and ends up having to impersonate her and go to a terrible fate with the Boltons.

Sansa betrays her family, ends up a hostage in KL, and tortured by her true "prince".

Tyrion, after killing his father and obsessing about where whores go, ends up in a brothel, abuses the poor prostitute, then gets kidnapped and sold into slavery. He also ends up part of the "silly dwarf charade" he so hated, since he was highborn and "above" such follies. But is forced to perform it in slavery.

Similarly, Ser Jorah Mormont is exiled for selling poachers into slavery - and ends up sold as a slave himself.

Balon Greyjoy plans another rebellion, only to accidentally fall off those flimsy bridges in a storm (with the help of a faceless man).

Joffrey is a little shit and has his KG beat Sansa, and ends up dead via poison from Sansa's hairnet (without her knowledge).

Lysa kills her husband, follows her "love", LF's instructions, and uses the Moon Door to almost kill her proxy sister Sansa out of jealousy; ends up falling out the Moon Door with help from LF.

That's all I can think of for now.

[Silmarien]

AHA. The Tickler and Polliver commit countless atrocities only to be taken out by their master, Gregor's little brother and "little mouse" Arya, one of their former captives.

The Freys enact their heinous revenge upon the Northerners (Robb's forces), and end up getting picked off one by one by the BWB, and scorned even by Jaime and all of the Northern families (most of whom lost kin at the wedding).

Viserys goes with the Dothraki to Vaes Dothrak, and prances around like they owe him something immediately; gets drunk, weilds a sword he can't even properly use; threatens his sister and her unborn child; and ends up getting his crown...molten gold poured over his head (not what he had in mind I am thinking).

Khal Drogo pillages and rapes the Lhazareen, refuses to follow MMD's instructions, and ends up dead (in revenge for destroying her city).

I just hope Randyll Tarley gets a taste of his own disgusting sense of justice.

[The Drunkard]

Ned.- killed Lady (an unforgiveable sin IMO) with "Ice", he is beheaded with it.

I don't see how that's an unforgivable sin when he saved Lady from a potentially harsher death as well as defilement afterwards.

Tywin.- is said to shit gold, and is killed while shitting.

I don't get why the rumours surrounding his ability to crap out gold validate his murder.

But yeah, I guess the others are valid if you look at them that way.

[Woman of War]

By Ludovica:

Ned.- killed Lady (an unforgiveable sin IMO) with "Ice", he is beheaded with it.

i am sorry but I beg to differ. Lady is an animal, I know we are supposed to see more in those direwolwes than animals, but still. There is a huge moral gap between killing an animal and killing a human being. Apart from that, the pigs we eat are just as intelligent and social as dogs or wolves and they are treated like garbage during their sad lives.

Don't get me wrong, I love my cats and the dogs around me and I try to eat only the meat of animals kept in a fair and ecologically correct manner. But animals aren't people, the best we can do for them is to give them their animal dignity.

So imo Ned was absolutely right to kill Lady in order to protect Arya.

Here I agree with Silmarien:

Tyrion, after killing his father and obsessing about where whores go, ends up in a brothel, abuses the poor prostitute, then gets kidnapped and sold into slavery. He also ends up part of the "silly dwarf charade" he so hated, since he was highborn and "above" such follies. But is forced to perform it in slavery.

as much as I like the character Tyrion and as much as I secretly want a cheesy happy ending for him ( not that I would ever admit it) he had it coming. That spoiled lordling simply had to learn about the realities of life and the life of a dwarf who is not protected by noble birth. I think it is part of the storyline to deconstruct the idea of nobility as superior class and for Tyrion's further, not only literary, character development, this downfall from pride and comfortable life was absolutely necessary. I wished we would see more noblewomen and -men brought down to live the life of 99,8 percent of the population.

[Gala]

Cersei - set up Margaery, but was captured herself; didn't care about other people children - is on the way of loosing her own.

[The Drunkard]

Balon Greyjoy - Continually rose up in rebellion against his sworn king, was killed by his sworn brother in a rebellion (of sorts).

[Silmarien]

I don't see how that's an unforgivable sin when he saved Lady from a potentially harsher death as well as defilement afterwards.

I don't get why the rumours surrounding his ability to crap out gold validate his murder.

But yeah, I guess the others are valid if you look at them that way.

It's not "validating" Tywin's murder. It's just Karmic irony. Besides, he had an innocent crofter's daughter raped by a barracks of men, then forced his son to participate. He ruined that girl's life, and traumatized her beyond measure. Tywin also eradicated the Reynes of Castamere, raped and pillaged the Riverlands with his known rabid dogs, hired the Bloody Mummers, and plotted to make the RW occur. He deserved death.

Another Karmic incident - Tywin hires the Bloody Mummers, and they end up maiming his golden son, Jaime, robbing him of his sword hand.

[The Drunkard]

It's not "validating" Tywin's murder. It's just Karmic irony. Besides, he had an innocent crofter's daughter raped by a barracks of men, then forced his son to participate. He ruined that girl's life, and traumatized her beyond measure. Tywin also eradicated the Reynes of Castamere, raped and pillaged the Riverlands with his known rabid dogs, hired the Bloody Mummers, and plotted to make the RW occur. He deserved death.

It's not karmic irony. All the other examples might be, but Tywin's isn't. The rumours surrounding his ability to shit gold give absolutely no reason for him to die, thus it has nothing to do with karma. Yes, Tywin is a bad guy, but that has absolutely no relevance to the substance of his crap. Pointing out all the bad things Tywin did is also totally irrelevant, but nice try.

[Silmarien]

By Ludovica:

i am sorry but I beg to differ. Lady is an animal, I know we are supposed to see more in those direwolwes than animals, but still. There is a huge moral gap between killing an animal and killing a human being. Apart from that, the pigs we eat are just as intelligent and social as dogs or wolves and they are treated like garbage during their sad lives.

Don't get me wrong, I love my cats and the dogs around me and I try to eat only the meat of animals kept in a fair and ecologically correct manner. But animals aren't people, the best we can do for them is to give them their animal dignity.

So imo Ned was absolutely right to kill Lady in order to protect Arya.

I agree. Ned did it himself, to prevent Cersei from making a wolf pelt out of poor Lady's coat. It was the only thing he could do - other than argue further with Robert.

Here I agree with Silmarien:

as much as I like the character Tyrion and as much as I secretly want a cheesy happy ending for him ( not that I would ever admit it) he had it coming. That spoiled lordling simply had to learn about the realities of life and the life of a dwarf who is not protected by noble birth. I think it is part of the storyline to deconstruct the idea of nobility as superior class and for Tyrion's further, not only literary, character development, this downfall from pride and comfortable life was absolutely necessary. I wished we would see more noblewomen and -men brought down to live the life of 99,8 percent of the population.

I totally agree! Tyrion needed to be humbled, and to learn humility. He suffered that pesky Lannister arrogance. I hope his experiences in Essos have changed his outlook on life, for the better. I like his character too - I think he is suffering psychologically severely from murdering his father, and the betrayal by Jaime. Knowing that he raped your wife (not a whore), who actually loved him, is seriously damaging. I think he will find his way back to a less dark path, at least I hope that is where he's headed. (Yes, Tyrion has done awful things, but so have most of the other characters, and on the whole, he still has at least an ounce of good in him - see his treatment of Penny in ADWD).

[Silmarien]

It's not karmic irony. All the other examples might be, but Tywin's isn't. The rumours surrounding his ability to shit gold give absolutely no reason for him to die, thus it has nothing to do with karma. Yes, Tywin is a bad guy, but that has absolutely no relevance to the substance of his crap. Pointing out all the bad things Tywin did is also totally irrelevant, but nice try.

Sigh.

The rumors state that Tywin actually shits gold. Then he is killed while shitting on a privy. That's the Karma (not irony), not the other stuff. :bang:

[Silmarien]

I don't see how that's an unforgivable sin when he saved Lady from a potentially harsher death as well as defilement afterwards.

I don't get why the rumours surrounding his ability to crap out gold validate his murder.

But yeah, I guess the others are valid if you look at them that way.

It's Karma (he is continually said to shit gold throughout the books, then gets killed while shitting; no gold) - it doesn't "validate" anything. I don't understand the connection.

[The Drunkard]

The rumors state that Tywin actually shits gold. Then he is killed while shitting on a privy. That's the Karma, not the other stuff. :bang:

Your still not getting it. That isn't karma. Karma is when a murderer gets hit by a bus, or a charity-founder wins the lottery.

I'll try to explain it better. Say you have a guy called Larry. Over the recent months people have begun to spread rumours about Larry's snot. They say it is blue. One day Larry goes to the bank in the middle of a robbery and is killed mid-sneeze. Would you call that karma?

[Silmarien]

Your still not getting it. That isn't karma. Karma is when a murderer gets hit by a bus, or a charity-founder wins the lottery.

I'll try to explain it better. Say you have a guy called Larry. Over the recent months people have begun to spread rumours about Larry's snot. They say it is blue. One day Larry goes to the bank in the middle of a robbery and is killed mid-sneeze. Would you call that karma?

No, Karma is when your deeds come back to haunt you in an apt manner. The Great Lord Tywin, not killed in battle, nor poisoned, nor died of old age. He is killed while shitting on a privy (rumors state he shits gold). Why is this so difficult to get across? Someone help me explain! :bang: :bang: :bang:

[The Drunkard]

No, Karma is when your deeds come back to haunt you in an apt manner.

Or when you are rewarded for good deeds, as I already pointed out.

The Great Lord Tywin, not killed in battle, nor poisoned, nor died of old age.

Superfluous.

He is killed while shitting on a privy (rumors state he shits gold). Why is this so difficult to get across? Someone help me explain! :bang: :bang: :bang:

Yes, he is killed on a Privy. That isn't karmic irony. It doesn't matter what the rumours state. For a death to be karmicly ironic you would have die in a similar fashion to the way you have made others suffer or die. Tywin has never made anyone suffer via his crap, therefore it isn't karmic irony. Yes, it's karma that he died, as he was a bad person, but that does not fit in with the other examples the TC gave.

It's really quite simple.

[Woman of War]

It is the total banality of proud Tywin's death, utterly undignified, since he had no compunctions, apart from his other crimes, to take away other people's dignity, see Tyrion and his father's mistress. He died for, once again, seeing another person as absolutely irrelevant, Tysha, "where do whores go...", he didn't care at all. And he was too proud to see how serious his dwarf son was about it. The proud Tywin died from pride.