tze Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Ned was the Stark that began allowing the Faith to gain a foothold in Winterfell, basically beginning a process that, sometime in the future, would probably have eventually led to future Starks abandoning the Old Gods in favor of the Faith: Ned built a sept in Winterfell and he allowed his children to be raised in the Faith, to the point where he even suggested that Brandon Stark of Winterfell might one day become High Septon. And Ned Stark, who permitted the Faith to infiltrate Winterfell and the Stark family, ended up being executed at a sept. A superstitious person might wonder if Ned's place of death was a hint that the Old Gods were displeased at him for permitting the Faith to encroach on the Old Gods' turf.Mel, who worships fire, almost burning alive right along with Rattleshirt, all because she didn't fully understand the magical forces she was manipulating, was the definition of karma. (The only thing more appropriate would have been if she'd actually burned alive.)Aemon, the oldest non-tree-dwelling man in Westeros, said that all of his brothers dreamed of dragons, and those dreams got them all killed. Aemon, who was usually so very wise, started planning to go find the dragons . . . and that's when he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonstar Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hardly an expert here, but I was raised in the religion - as far as I know, Karma is an action of deed that sets in motion the circle of life, or the circle of causes and effects. The effects don't manifest in this lifetime, but rather they accrue towards your next lifetime. So, while the OP contains fine examples of irony, I wouldnt say they are all examples of the trope "Karma is a bitch"Theon though is interesting - in one sense, he is reborn, and in his new life is paying (and then some) for the deeds of his prior lifetime. Again - not an expert here. I was raised in the religion, haven't practiced it in over 20 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterstood Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Has anyone noticed that GRRM is following what the High Septon said ("as we sin so we are punished") in regards to the fate of his characters? Ned.- killed Lady (an unforgiveable sin IMO) with "Ice", he is beheaded with it.smh. I hate when people dramatically exaggerate.Ned neither sinned doing that nor was it "unforgiveable." (He did perhaps violate the Old Gods principles as tze just pointed out.) He was in a tight spot and tried to make the best decision all things considered. Better to do it himself than have these foreigners disrespect the body of the animal.Ned was the Stark that began allowing the Faith to gain a foothold in Winterfell, basically beginning a process that, sometime in the future, would probably have eventually led to future Starks abandoning the Old Gods in favor of the Faith: Ned built a sept in Winterfell and he allowed his children to be raised in the Faith, to the point where he even suggested that Brandon Stark of Winterfell might one day become High Septon. And Ned Stark, who permitted the Faith to infiltrate Winterfell and the Stark family, ended up being executed at a sept. A superstitious person might wonder if Ned's place of death was a hint that the Old Gods were displeased at him for permitting the Faith to encroach on the Old Gods' turf.Now that's interesting. Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraken's Kiss Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I don't remember reading anything about Ned allowing the Faith to gain a foothold in Winterfell. Why would he do such a thing? Because of Catelyn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devaki Khanna Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Cersei's walk of shame--she recalls how her grandfather's mistress was forced to do something similar in Lannisport. As she walks from Baelor's Sept to the Red Keep, she recalls all the people she'd hurt and humiliated, in particular, Ned Stark and Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devaki Khanna Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Cersei's walk of shame--she recalls how her grandfather's mistress was forced to do something similar in Lannisport. As she walks from Baelor's Sept to the Red Keep, she recalls all the people she'd hurt and humiliated, in particular, Ned Stark and Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisontulus Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 This is my first post and I registered because I don't think anyone has talked about this before. About Ned Stark and Jon Snow and their deaths They do indeed do something that could be considered immoral as per their own standards. Ned Stark before being beheaded he changes the wording AND the overal meaning of the will of the king. He was not objective because he hated the Lannisters for what they did to Bran. He knew that what he was doing was treason to Robert (changing the words son to heir). And just before Jon Snow was stabbed, he OPENLY broke his oath to the night's watch. Just after these events, they died. It's sin, karma or whatever you want to call it.I didn't read all the posts before this, so if somebody said this already, my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkWhite Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Ned was the Stark that began allowing the Faith to gain a foothold in Winterfell, basically beginning a process that, sometime in the future, would probably have eventually led to future Starks abandoning the Old Gods in favor of the Faith: Ned built a sept in Winterfell and he allowed his children to be raised in the Faith, to the point where he even suggested that Brandon Stark of Winterfell might one day become High Septon. And Ned Stark, who permitted the Faith to infiltrate Winterfell and the Stark family, ended up being executed at a sept. A superstitious person might wonder if Ned's place of death was a hint that the Old Gods were displeased at him for permitting the Faith to encroach on the Old Gods' turf.Mel, who worships fire, almost burning alive right along with Rattleshirt, all because she didn't fully understand the magical forces she was manipulating, was the definition of karma. (The only thing more appropriate would have been if she'd actually burned alive.)Aemon, the oldest non-tree-dwelling man in Westeros, said that all of his brothers dreamed of dragons, and those dreams got them all killed. Aemon, who was usually so very wise, started planning to go find the dragons . . . and that's when he died.Not to detract from your post, but I believe it was Maester Luwin that suggested that to Bran. Otherwise interesting theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tze Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not to detract from your post, but I believe it was Maester Luwin that suggested that to Bran.Ned definitely suggested it:"[bran] was going to be a knight," Arya was saying now. "A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?""No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles likeBrandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talking Hodor Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 How about just saying that Tywin received a fitting death. He also forced his son to become the plumber of Casterly rock and forbade him his whores, so it's fitting that he'd die on the can while his secret whore is strangled in his bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talking Hodor Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I don't remember reading anything about Ned allowing the Faith to gain a foothold in Winterfell. Why would he do such a thing? Because of Catelyn? I don't think Ned ever set foot in a sept. The faith was there merely because of Catelyn. Their kids were free to decide (or just worship both, as most seem to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Recently I've re-read AGOT and ACOK and what hit me right in the first chapter was how Ned Stark seemingly serves justice to the Night's Watch deserter, Gared. The problem is; that was not not justice, it was not right. Ned didn't even listen properly what the old man had to say, he just swung that sword blindly and called it justice. Reading it again made me realize how every time I read this part I wished the same kind of justice for Ned. Of course, later chapters make you love and care for the character and you kinda forget about poor Gared but then at the end of the book its BAM! Justice! The same kind he delivered. There are a lot of evidence for some kind of karma existing in Westeros, but this example really hit me with this re-read. It also made me think about Ned's "sons" following his example. Robb cuts of the head from Lord Karstark = gets brutally stabbed by RooseJon refuses to kill Ygritte = has sex with her instead (ginger karmic reward :D)Jon refuses to kill an innocent old man = no more sex, but becomes Lord Commander.Jon shortens Janos Slynt for a head (becomes some hero that Sansa wished beheaded Slynt back when he was at court) = Jon gets stabbed by his brothers*Theon kills Rodrik Cassel and the mill boys = becomes Reek and loses his manhood ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadMaster Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 karma is the amount of thought/weight you give to something, it has nothing to do with what comes around goes around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 karma is the amount of thought/weight you give to something, it has nothing to do with what comes around goes around. ??? you obviously gave little to no thought to your reply. from merriam webster dictionary: the force created by a person's actions that some people believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 It is the total banality of proud Tywin's death, utterly undignified, since he had no compunctions, apart from his other crimes, to take away other people's dignity, see Tyrion and his father's mistress. He died for, once again, seeing another person as absolutely irrelevant, Tysha, "where do whores go...", he didn't care at all. And he was too proud to see how serious his dwarf son was about it. The proud Tywin died from pride.I can't imagine a worse death for a man as proud of Tywin. 200 years on, schoolchildren will snigger about Tywin Lannister, the Hand who died in the privy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 although our first glimpse of Loras is in all his finery at the tournament of the Hand, I don't think he was so vain as to deserve being killed or disfigure by boiling oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Yech, this thread is a testament to why I shouldn't drunk post. Sorry for being an ass, people of two years ago. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Tywin kills to avenge insults and is killed because he insulted TyshaMandon Moore attacks a short person and is killed by a short personAerys kills because of treason and is killed because of treasonBalon kills by treachery and is killed by his brother's treacherywe will so not get into swords in the shadows with Renly Karma is justice without satisfaction.... and i don't believe in justice It really does seem to be more die as you live... live by the sword die by the sword kind of thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Recently I've re-read AGOT and ACOK and what hit me right in the first chapter was how Ned Stark seemingly serves justice to the Night's Watch deserter, Gared. The problem is; that was not not justice, it was not right. Ned didn't even listen properly what the old man had to say, he just swung that sword blindly and called it justice. Reading it again made me realize how every time I read this part I wished the same kind of justice for Ned. Of course, later chapters make you love and care for the character and you kinda forget about poor Gared but then at the end of the book its BAM! Justice! The same kind he delivered. "I've seen the enemy" is not a good excuse for desertion. You'd think that would be self-evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 "I've seen the enemy" is not a good excuse for desertion. You'd think that would be self-evident. Oh what a laugh, what a great LOL. I'm guessing you would have done the honorable thing of not crapping your pants and running from the ice demons as far as you could. Ned didn't even bother to try to understand the man's reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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