Melisandre: deceived, deceiver, or both?

[kissdbyfire]

Yes, agree - as usual. And since you've mentioned 'Lightbringer'... Yesterday I was listening to the ASoS chapter where the NW is choosing the new LC and Stannis summons the candidates. Besides the candidates and Bowen Marsh (who had already withdrawn his name by then), Melisandre, maester Aemon, and Sam and are present. At the end of the scene, maester Aemon asks Stannis to 'see' the sword:

“You want to see Lightbringer? A blind man?”

“Sam shall be my eyes.”

The king frowned. “Everyone else has seen the thing, why not a blind man?” His swordbelt and scabbard hung from a peg near the hearth. He took the belt down and drew the longsword out. Steel scraped against wood and leather, and radiance filled the solar; shimmering, shifting, a dance of gold and orange and red light, all the bright colors of fire.

GreyDeLeon brought this up yesterday as well, that Lightbringer must be glamoured, and I agree. After all, the sword shines and glimmers, and has all these pretty fiery colours... I've been thinking also about what Mel says regarding the glamour she uses on Mance and how it is important for him to wear Rattleshirt's bones etc. And, as I said yesterday, I started wondering if this fake 'Lightbringer' must be near the fire or sunlight to 'be charged'. I still haven't been able to do a thorough search, though. Do we 'see' this sword many times? At the top of my head I only remember the scene in ACoK when we first see it, and this one with Sam describing it to maester Aemon. But I'm sure there must be other times too... Anyone?

[Lummel]

Stannis must show it to renly at their peach eating parley because Renly mentions that Loras will present him with this fabulously sparkly sword after the battle.

[kissdbyfire]

Nice one, Lummel! I'd forgotten all about that time. Just checked, and it was sunny (a wan sunlight, but still sunlight):

“Enough!” Stannis roared. “I will not be mocked to my face, do you hear me? I will not!” He yanked his longsword from its scabbard. The steel gleamed strangely bright in the wan sunlight, now red, now yellow, now blazing white. The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat.

[Lykos]

"Enough!" Stannis roared. "I will not be mocked to my face, do you hear me? I will not!" He yanked his longsword from its scabbard. The steel gleamed strangely bright in the wan sunlight, now red, now yellow, now blazing white. The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat. ...Renly laughed. "Stannis, that's a very pretty sword, I'll grant you, but I think the glow off it has ruined your eyes.

Clash. Chapter 31, Catelyn. (Lummel beat me.)

He shows it to Jon. There is a fire and a tall candle lighting the room.

Stannis drew the blade he called Lightbringer. “Here is your sword in the darkness.” Light rippled up and down the blade, now red, now yellow, now orange, painting the king’s face in harsh, bright hues.

Later he shows it to the wildlings when "Mance" is burned.

Light-bringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice.

I was somehow thinking of the glass candles, but the light seems to be different. Judge for yourself.

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black thev looked like holes in the world.

[kissdbyfire]

Later he shows it to the wildlings when "Mance" is burned.

Light-bringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice.

This one is interesting. The way it's described... it's almost 'over the top' - men had to cover their eyes, horses shied and one threw the rider, even the flames in the pit seem to shrink before it. Assuming the sword is glamoured (or under any spell with a different name), I wonder if there's something there making it shine brighter. The first thing that comes to mind is the Wall itself, but I don't really see a connection - even though we have Melisandre saying she's stronger at the Wall. Hmmm... must think.

I was somehow thinking of the glass candles, but the light seems to be different. Judge for yourself.

Yeah, I don't know what to make of the glass candles, tbh. They made me think of a palantír when I first read about them, but other than that... I mean, artificial light too. Maybe in that they are similar to the obsidian candles. Maybe not 'artificial' exactly, but in the sense that they emanate light without a source, or at least without a visible source.

[kissdbyfire]

Lykos, I was reading an old Melisandre thread and came across a post you made that I like very much, and I have a question.

I got the same vibe as you from this scene. In the heresy thread there was speculation that Ghost was warged by Bloodraven at that moment, for Bloodraven wanted to check out Melisandre. I don´t like that idea.

The parts I underlined hint that Mel might have used a potion, there is a scene where she is thinking to herself about the tricks she uses, at first Ghost is wary until he makes contact with Mel´s fingers.

I saw all the followers of R´hllor ( and I included Maegies, Shadowbinders and magicians connected to Asshai ) as part of a century -, if not millenia - old plot against the natural order ( defended by the Children of the Forest ). Yesterday I listened to the scene where Jon is attacked ( I´m quite shure his wounds weren´t fatal btw ) to find prove that Melisandre is scheming against Jon and that he has figured her out.

"But there weren´t many facts and a lot was left open and all the clues were pointing to Jon coming to trust Melisandre. And that to an extent, that I´d consider a turnaround due to a guiding dream by BR or Bran very much contrived." It was a bit like my world falling apart actually.

That last part at the bottom between quotation marks... Do you mean you think there are clues to Jon starting to trust Mel and that this change may have been caused by BR/Bran? Or that you would hate for that to happen?

Or both? :D

[Elaena Targaryen]

Interesting topic Kyssetafild!

Concerning Lightbringer I didn't see anyone mention Catelyn's description of the sword from ACOK...

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of

flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore.

Now normaly I would not think twice about a ruby set in the hilt of a sword but with Mel I'm pretty sure it's a glamor, and with Aemon's doubts too of course.

[Lykos]

Kyssetafild, at that time all of it, that´s why I developed the idea that Bloodraven is messing with Melisandre´s vision and maybe even her mind. I´m still expecting some guidance from BR/Bran for Jon, during his recovery, but since I think Melisandre´s behaviour is influenced by BR, I don´t see a conflict anymore. Only now I came to question my, all (fire)magic practitioners and especially the R´hllor-fanatics are evil, theory.

I see the Warlocks of the Undying as the biggest villains now. I´ve always ignored them a bit, because their magic seemed so pathetic, but they want to defeat death for selfish reasons, while the R´hllor followers want every human to benefit, but being blind about that the imbalance won´t work

In other words I see them (the Undying) as the Ser Bennis of the Brown shield, with the R´hllor followers being Ser Eustace and the followers of the Old Gods being the Red Widow. Well, - sort of, - roughly.

Elaena, yes I think it´s a possibility. But this is part of Bran Vras´ theory, and it has aspects that I don´t understand. I hope he´ll come back.

[SeanF]

Which visions has Melisandre interpreted correctly? I can't remember them all, but they include the attack on the Night's Watch at the Fist of the First Men, Davos' loyalty, the three eyeless heads dumped at the Wall by The Weeper, the threats to Jon Snow, and the message sent to Jon Snow by raven from Ramsay Bolton. She mistook Alys Karstark for Arya, but was quite correct that a girl was fleeing up the Kingsroad to the Wall. She also divined that both Cressen and Davos planned to kill her.

Melisandre has proved herself to be a formidable sorcerer, but fallible, and perhaps not as powerful as Moqorro.

[eyeheartsansa]

She's a con artist with some very broad strokes of magical ability. Moqorro, for example, comes off as far more formidable.

Maybe she's a con artist, but she does seem to have some special kind of R'hllor annointing, seeing as she goes without sleeping or eating.. Similar to Beric. Perhaps she's been resurrected a time or two?

She is a tough nut to crack. I can't figure her out justy yet.

[Blisscraft]

Mel correctly got that if Stannis went to Storm's End he would wint the best of Renly's power and "a morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing." ACOK p 464.

We learn the truth of the second prophecy when "Renly" (Lord Garland) rides out of the south in his green armor to smash Stannis' host beneath the walls of King's Landing.

[kissdbyfire]

Lots of interesting stuff I want to reply to but it will have to wait...

@Elaena, well done, I had completely forgot about the rubi!

@Lykos, I'm going through Jon's last ADwD chapter, reading and rereading it. It's funny because it's the single chapter in all the books I have read just the one time. I have a bunch of questions for you regarding this and your post. I'll post them together with the other replies...

Cheers, guys!

[kissdbyfire]

Kyssetafild, at that time all of it, that´s why I developed the idea that Bloodraven is messing with Melisandre´s vision and maybe even her mind. I´m still expecting some guidance from BR/Bran for Jon, during his recovery, but since I think Melisandre´s behaviour is influenced by BR, I don´t see a conflict anymore.

This is interesting, Lykos. I agree with the idea that BR is interfering with Mel somehow, either ‘feeding her flame-o-vision’ or by just by running interference, like radio statics. When do you think this started? I’m going to reread all the ADwD and AFfC parts with Mel in, ie. Jon, Samwell, and her own chapter in ADwD. There are a few things that are very odd in that last Jon chapter. For instance, after talking to Selyse he talks to Leathers about the relief ranging and tells him to spread the word, and that he wants all the leaders of the free folk in the Shieldhall. He then goes to the armoury:

Outside the armory, Mully and the Flea stood shivering at guard. “Shouldn’t you be inside, out of this wind?” Jon asked.

“That’d be sweet, m’lord,” said Fulk the Flea, “but your wolf’s in no mood for company today.”

Mully agreed. “He tried to take a bite o’ me, he did.”

“Ghost?” Jon was shocked.

“Unless your lordship has some other white wolf, aye. I never seen him like this, m’lord. All wild-like, I mean.”

He was not wrong, as Jon discovered for himself when he slipped inside the doors. The big white direwolf would not lie still. He paced from one end of the armory to the other, past the cold forge and back again. “Easy, Ghost,” Jon called. “Down. Sit, Ghost. Down.” Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth. It’s that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink.

Mormont’s raven seemed agitated too. “Snow,” the bird kept screaming. “Snow, snow, snow.”

So, we know Ghost is acting up and is restless at least as early as that. Jon assumes it’s because of Borroq’s boar, but I think he’s wrong. Mind you, Mormont’s raven is agitated as well.

Then he has another fruitless meeting with Marsh and Yarwyck. During this meeting Jon thinks about their intolerance when it comes the free folk, and thinks about their complaints regarding some of the NW castles being settled by some of the free folk leaders. We see that Soren Shieldbreaker got Stonedoor (the 5^th castle from the west, far from Castle Black); Tormund and Morna are on either side of Castle Black, the first at Oakenshield, the latter at Queensgate.

Jon then has a meeting with Tormund to plan the ranging to Hardhome and Clydas arrives with Ramsay’s letter. After reading the letter (and reading it to Tormund) Jon says they need to change their plans, and they go to the Shieldhall.

The description we get is of a large hall that can seat 200, perhaps even 300 (and the description suggests it’s full or nearly full). Jon observes the wildlings outnumber the NW men 5 to 1; there are no king’s ken, and only two queen’s men. Melisandre enters the hall when Jon is talking.

He’s saying he was going to lead the ranging but found he can’t go anymore, and that Tormund will be leading it in his place.

“And where will you be, crow?” Borroq thundered. “Hiding here in Castle Black with your white dog?”

“No. I ride south.” Then Jon read them the letter Ramsay Snow had written.

The Shieldhall went mad.

Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time.

I find the wildling (over)reaction intriguing. As far as I can tell, Jon didn’t tell them it was indeed Mance, and even if he had. The free folk never struck me as becoming this ‘attached’ to their leaders. It’s all a matter of who is the strongest, most able man to lead them. Mance defeated Tormund, Styr, and three others (who actually died rather than yielding) to become king beyond the wall. I don’t think they would react like this just because the spearwives were flayed either. I think this reaction is very over the top, to be honest. And that made start to think that it’s something to do with Ramsay more than anything else. The other thing I noticed is the conspicuous absence of Morna White Mask. It seems most if not all of the wildling leaders are present, and Morna’s settled at Queensgate, right next to Castle Black. I think this is a character we are going to see a lot more (at least I certainly hope so), and I wonder if she’ll play an important role post assassination attempt.

Jon then tells everyone that the NW will go to Hardhome and he’ll go to Winterfell alone, unless...

“The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …” Jon paused. “… is there any man here who will come stand with me?”

The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.

And again a very strong reaction from the wildlings.

Marsh and Yarwyck slip out with their men. Melisandre is gone too, and we don’t know exactly at what point she left the hall. Was it before Marsh and Yarwyck? Was it before he even read the letter? No idea.

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me.

Now, why would he need Melisandre to ‘find Ramsay’? He has just said he will be riding to Winterfell, Ramsay told him to ‘come and get Mance’.

Lykos, is this (at least in part) why you think Jon starts to trust her? It sounds that way, but couldn’t it be a sort of red herring, open to interpretation? We have very little info on Melisandre in the last part of the chapter, I think this is deliberate. I believe she is doing something, but I honestly don’t know what it is.

Only now I came to question my, all (fire)magic practitioners and especially the R´hllor-fanatics are evil, theory. I see the Warlocks of the Undying as the biggest villains now. I´ve always ignored them a bit, because their magic seemed so pathetic, but they want to defeat death for selfish reasons, while the R´hllor followers want every human to benefit, but being blind about that the imbalance won´t work In other words I see them (the Undying) as the Ser Bennis of the Brown shield, with the R´hllor followers being Ser Eustace and the followers of the Old Gods being the Red Widow. Well, - sort of, - roughly. Elaena, yes I think it´s a possibility. But this is part of Bran Vras´ theory, and it has aspects that I don´t understand. I hope he´ll come back.

Yes, the Undying... they are very creepy but I admit I have never thought about them too much. And I agree with what you say about them, I hadn’t look at it that way. I’m curious as to why you make this parallel between the Undying, R’hllor, and the Old Gods with ser Bennis, ser Eustace, and the Red Widow. I see the points in each pair, but I’m curious to understand how you came to it in the first place. Care to elaborate? I’d love to hear more about this. :)

Which visions has Melisandre interpreted correctly? I can't remember them all, but they include the attack on the Night's Watch at the Fist of the First Men, Davos' loyalty, the three eyeless heads dumped at the Wall by The Weeper, the threats to Jon Snow, and the message sent to Jon Snow by raven from Ramsay Bolton. She mistook Alys Karstark for Arya, but was quite correct that a girl was fleeing up the Kingsroad to the Wall. She also divined that both Cressen and Davos planned to kill her. Melisandre has proved herself to be a formidable sorcerer, but fallible, and perhaps not as powerful as Moqorro.

I agree she has seen these things but I want to see exactly what she’s said about them. So, thanks for mentioning them, I’ll look them up. As to how loyal Davos is, I don’t think she really ‘saw’ that. I know she thinks to herself in those terms, but Davos’ loyalty is plain for anyone to see.

Maybe she's a con artist, but she does seem to have some special kind of R'hllor annointing, seeing as she goes without sleeping or eating.. Similar to Beric. Perhaps she's been resurrected a time or two? She is a tough nut to crack. I can't figure her out justy yet.

Yeah, she is a tough nut to crack. I keep going back and forth with her, but I’m not really sure about anything where Melisandre is concerned. Now, the thing with her not needing sleep... I’ve seen this mentioned elsewhere, more than once. And I don’t think it’s true. From her chapter in ADwD:

Her fire had burned low, she saw. “Devan, more wood. What hour is it?”

“Almost dawn, my lady.”

Dawn. Another day is given us, R’hllor be praised. The terrors of the night recede. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord’s blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover’s kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

So, she does sleep. Little, and she doesn’t like to dream. But the thing with having been resurrected a few times is a possibility. Maybe it’s a process, and we need more resurrections to reach the point of not needing any sleep anymore. Another thing is, it could be the same with Beric, couldn’t it? I mean, we don’t know for a fact that he never ever sleeps. We get only a few comments saying things like ‘he didn’t seem to need sleep’, etc.

[Lykos]

I think I need to think about this all a bit more, but a few things stood out to me: Melisandre offered to tell Jon his enemies names and he answers: "I know who my enemies are." I don´t think he was talking about the his black brothers. I believe he was thinking of the queen´s men and probably most of all the Others. I´m still thinking about how he took Mel´s remark that a sword without a hilt is better than no sword at all.

And the night of the attack on Jon is just so full of things I don´t understand. I guess that was Martin´s plan. You already mentioned Ghost´s behaviour, I don´t think Jon was satisfied with his boar explanation, but did he get the chance to find another one?

But most Importantly, the pink letter - what truth did Jon see in it? I think it´s crucial that he didn´t go to the Queen straight away. Here is an older post with some thoughts - well, more questions actually.

<snip>

I wanted to answer to you for quite a while. I also have the feeling that there is something changing in Melisandre, though it´s hard to tell because it´s her first POV chapter. But I have come to a different conclusion. I think Bloodraven is messing with Melisandre´s flame-o-vision (maybe the snow made me think of the white noise in Poltergeist ). I think he is influencing her with increasing success.

I agree that this shows that Melisandre becomes convinced of Jon´s importance and that there is the possibility that she sent the letter. When the letter arrives,

Jon doesn´t send to Melisandre even though he thinks that she saw it coming. He sends everyone away except for Tormund and makes plans for two hours.

There are hints that the letter wasn´t sent by Ramsay. Unlike at the other two events when Asha and Jon receive letters from Ramsay there is no mentioning of the large spiky handwriting in dried blood. When Tormund looks at it, he says:

While I doubt that Tormund would recognise Maesters Ink, I´m sure he´d know dried blood. The problem I have with your theory is, that Melisandre is seeing the effect of her actions in the vision that makes her act. Daggers in the dark - writing false letter.

*****

I want to bring up another example of Melisandre´s misinterpretations, since I think it might be related to Euron.

I know that people have speculated that the towers by the sea refer to the Iron Islands. I agree, but I think the "black and bloody tide" is not the Children´s Waterhammer. I think it´s Euron and his magic slavers.

[Lykos]

<snip>I’m curious as to why you make this parallel between the Undying, R’hllor, and the Old Gods with ser Bennis, ser Eustace, and the Red Widow. I see the points in each pair, but I’m curious to understand how you came to it in the first place. Care to elaborate? I’d love to hear more about this. :) <snip>

This was triggered by Val the Wildling Princess´ find of the John Barleycorn parallels. Couldn´t find her post now, I think she had a better link. Jon sends Tom Barleycorn ahead to scout, when the first wildling Black Brothers swear their oath in front of the weirwoods and they find the wildling group with Wun Wun the giant and earlier Mormont´s raven says corn, king on several occasions, I think. I wondered how Martin could make this sacrifice theme work.

I remembered Dunk´s sacrifice in the conflict of two irreconcilable parties, which escalated due to the heedless atrocity of Bennis, who was leeching on what was left of Ser Eustace (rant over). Since there are also the Barleycorn levies and I already thought that Jon would be in a perfect position to conciliate, I thought Martin might let him go about it in Dunk´s way. The equations I made up just then. Well, - sort of, - roughly. :blushing:

<snip> I´ll give you my speculations. I don´t think that Rhaegar was knowingly following Rh´llor, but I believe that he was used. He was led to believe in the prophesy of the Ptwp, by books of early Targaryen visions i.e. Sign and Portents and the Ghost of High Heart´s prophesy that the Ptwp was coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. I believe the visions in Sign and Portents were influenced by Rh´llor followers, so I think it likely that they were speaking of the Azor Ahai legend. It is speculated that the Ghost of High Heart is a CotF, in which case I don´t think her prophesy was refering to AA, but to the Last Hero, who sought out the CotF to end the Long Night. I am not shure about the Ghost of the High Heart, however, but I don´t believe that AA is the Last Hero. I think that Lyanna has added the mysteries of the North, probably believing that the Ptwp was the LH or another important Hero, half Stark and half magical. I believe that Brandon the Builder was at least half CotF and founded House Stark. I think this will lead to all factions believing that Jon is to fulfill their legend / prophesy, which means that Jon is in a position to conciliate, but he will have to walk the blade of a WW. Edit for corrections.

[Lady Winter Rose]

...

Who is morna?

[kissdbyfire]

Who is morna?

Morna White Mask is a wildling leader. She is described as being a 'warrior witch', and she wears a weirwood mask. This is from ADwD, when Jon meets Tormund, and the wildlings are passing through the tunnel:

"Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. Devyn Sealskinner presented him with a sealskin hat, Harle the Huntsman with a bear-claw necklace. The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on."

And when Jon settles some wildling leaders, she gets Queensgate which is right next to Castle Black. She should have been at the Shieldhall, I think...

[Bushido]

Neither of the offered,but simply - devout.

[Menos Grande]

Maybe the lightbringer is real but it doesnt burn because stannis isn't the real Azhor Ahai. Or maybe is the same trick she made Mance become the lord of bones.

She keeps her secrets, like she doesn't share with anyone that Rhallor gives her life so she doesnt need to eat (probably because of that she survived the poison she drunk). She even got some powders to do some tricks, but she says that she doesnt need them at the wall her powers now are just to great.

But yes she keeps some screats but not for the realm, just so her powers seems more awersome.

[kissdbyfire]

This was triggered by Val the Wildling Princess´ find of the John Barleycorn parallels. Couldn´t find her post now, I think she had a better link. Jon sends Tom Barleycorn ahead to scout, when the first wildling Black Brothers swear their oath in front of the weirwoods and they find the wildling group with Wun Wun the giant and earlier Mormont´s raven says corn, king on several occasions, I think. I wondered how Martin could make this sacrifice theme work.

I remembered Dunk´s sacrifice in the conflict of two irreconcilable parties, which escalated due to the heedless atrocity of Bennis, who was leeching on what was left of Ser Eustace (rant over). Since there are also the Barleycorn levies and I already thought that Jon would be in a perfect position to conciliate, I thought Martin might let him go about it in Dunk´s way. The equations I made up just then. Well, - sort of, - roughly. :blushing:

Yes, I remember when Val posted about John Barleycorn! As to Jon following a 'Dunc path', well... he could do a lot worse! I love Duncan, good 'role model' for anyone in my book. :-)

And I've been thinking a lot about Mel's words of caution to Jon several times about the 'daggers in the dark'. I think she's misinterpreting again. I think this vision is related to Stannis, not Jon. I need to finish retreading some bits, then I'll elaborate on this further.