Why does Littlefinger catch flak for his affections for Sansa but Khal drogo and others involved with younger women in Westeros/Essos get a pass?

[Greymoon]

Littelfinger pretends to be Sansa's father. For me, that's almost hinting at pedophilia and incest. He's taking advantage of the situation. She depends on him, after all. Petyr also has a few whore houses in Kingslanding, he makes business out of sex and even dead bodies for those lords with peculiar whishes. It's obvious he has an open ... perverted mind... he's perhaps less perverted than Gregor, but still...he's creepy.

I don't see any problem with the age difference between Dany and Drogo. A woman wed is a woman wed, in westeros, no matter how old she is. Also, I don't think Khal Drogo was that old but even if he was twice her age, so what? I never did read that first sexual scene between Dany and Drogo as rape, I think its mostly in the TV Series that it comes out like it. Drogo actually showed himself affectionate that first night. Afterwards he didn't ask, but well... he wouldn't be the first married man to have expectations and Dany never fought him. Besides, these are other times and other customs than our ones.

Look at Edmure. His bride was weeping but still, he managed to get a child on her. Do you think he cared she was crying? No one ever accused Edmure of being a perv.

Also, Tyrion loves his whores but, I think he only goes to brothels because he knows he's ugly and deformed. He didn't bed Sansa, though they were married and it was thus perfectly legal no matter what Sansa thought about it. That's a testimony to his character.

[mormont]

That's a testimony to his character.

I would consider rephrasing that. Even by Westerosi standards, this situation was nothing like a 'regular' arranged marriage. Refraining from forcing yourself on a 12-year-old hostage who has just been married to you almost literally at swordpoint, as part of a war against her family and a hostile takeover of her ancestral home, isn't really much of a testimony to anyone's 'character'. It says you're not a completely unfeeling brute, and that's about it.

[Greymoon]

It is disturbing when you think of a doll-like 13 year old girl being traded to a 28 year old man, who rides her like his horse every night. Yet, Dany's resilience, and her dawning awareness of her own abilities, as they travel across the Dothraki Sea, makes this less disturbing for me. Also, I wouldn't expect anything better from Drogo.

There is something particularly creepy about LF. He starts taking a sexual interest in Sansa when she's 11. He imprisons an 11 year old girl in one of his brothels, where she is "trained" at the point of a whip (or is perhaps, whipped by clients for sexual gratification); he orchestrates the horrors inflicted on Sansa's family, and has her framed for Joffrey's murder; he wants to be both Sansa's surrogate father and her lover. and he begins to implicate Sansa in his crimes, getting her to lie about her Aunt's murder, and condemning Marillion to death.

What are you implying? that Drogo was a savage? I hate that in the TV series the Dothraki are indeed portrayed as savages and its leaning too strongly towards orientalism (at best) and racism (at worst).

Drogo was just like any other man in Essos/Westeros. He doesn't speak her language, she doesn't speak his. Communication would have been difficult at best, and the way I've read the scenes, Dany is mostly exhausted and sour from riding all day. She's sulking because life on the road is harder than she thought. What's Drogo to do, then? He sees her like a weak girl to begin with, its no excuse, but he married her to get a child. And again, no communication possible. Dany doesn't fight him off, either.

If you look at Dany's marriage with the eyes of someone who grew up with modern ideals, then yes, it's disturbing. However, from the perspective of a Westerosi, or someone else from our middle ages, it wouldn't be that disturbing at all. Dany is scared, but so would most young brides in her situation be. She never thinks it's abnormal for her to marry so young.

[Greymoon]

I would consider rephrasing that. Even by Westerosi standards, this situation was nothing like a 'regular' arranged marriage. Refraining from forcing yourself on a 12-year-old hostage who has just been married to you almost literally at swordpoint, as part of a war against her family and a hostile takeover of her ancestral home, isn't really much of a testimony to anyone's 'character'. It says you're not a completely unfeeling brute, and that's about it.

alright, so it’s not a standard arranged marriage, but it's still a marriage. Knowing people who have been in arranged marriages, your personal opinion on the groom, or bride, doesn't matter much. It’s all about alliances between families and if Sansa was considered of age by Westerosi standards than Tyrion had the right, no matter how misogynic it sounds, to bed her. It's legalized rape, of course, the point here is, that Tyrion didn't force the issue which makes him a better man than others. Granted, that's not saying much.

[Theda Baratheon]

I would consider rephrasing that. Even by Westerosi standards, this situation was nothing like a 'regular' arranged marriage. Refraining from forcing yourself on a 12-year-old hostage who has just been married to you almost literally at swordpoint, as part of a war against her family and a hostile takeover of her ancestral home, isn't really much of a testimony to anyone's 'character'. It says you're not a completely unfeeling brute, and that's about it.

Aye. I hate it when I read comments implying Sansa should feel GRATEFUL in some way to Tyrion (part of the family who has utterly destroyed her own) for not consummating the marriage. And that this somehow makes Tyrion a saint, it doesn't.

[SeanF]

What are you implying? that Drogo was a savage? I hate that in the TV series the Dothraki are indeed portrayed as savages and its leaning too strongly towards orientalism (at best) and racism (at worst).

He comes from a people who think they're "doing honour" to captive women by raping them, I accept, he's more sensitive than the rest of them that we see.

[mormont]

alright, so it’s not a standard arranged marriage, but it's still a marriage. Knowing people who have been in arranged marriages, your personal opinion on the groom, or bride, doesn't matter much.

This is just trying to duck the point, rather than addressing it. No, it's not a standard arranged marriage. It's very, very far from that and totally different, even by Westerosi standards. It's a forced marriage, and an extreme example of a forced marriage at that. The only worse example I can think of is Ramsay and Lady Hornwood. Are you going to say that 'no matter how misogynistic it sounds, Ramsay had the right to bed her'? (I advise against that. When you're in a hole, best stop digging.)

It's legalized rape, of course, the point here is, that Tyrion didn't force the issue which makes him a better man than others. Granted, that's not saying much.

It really isn't. He's a better man than Ramsay Bolton. And that's a 'testimony to his character'?

[Castel]

What are you implying? that Drogo was a savage? I hate that in the TV series the Dothraki are indeed portrayed as savages and its leaning too strongly towards orientalism (at best) and racism (at worst).

The Dothraki are portrayed as savages in the books as well.Theirs is a culture completely centered on the killing and capturing of townspeople who cannot defend themselves. They consider it their right to murder men, rape women and sell children as slaves. How is this not savagery? Sure, Westerosi can be savage but it doesn't reach the level of the Dothraki nor is it as constant and even if it was it doesn't change anything.

[Milady of York]

Littlefinger undoubtedly knows what happens in his brothels and how they’re run, and even if he didn’t personally train Jeyne, he’s wholly responsible for it. He sent her there in the first place, and she was trained as a prostitute, on his orders and with his blessing, because had he wanted just to shelter her, he could’ve given instructions in this regard.

A clinician cannot diagnose paedophiliac tendencies on a single case, because that can be an isolated circumstance that can be attributed to a different diagnosis, but for Littlefinger we have three instances:

- He has no problem in ordering the rape and corruption of an 11-year-old girl. The terrible thing is that Jeyne Poole was raped in Littlefinger’s brothel still being a child, because she hadn’t bled yet. One of the primary criteria for paedophilia is that the girl or the boy hasn’t hit puberty yet. From then onwards, it’s not paedophilia. It’s still illegal in many places, but not paedophilia.

- He lusts after another 11-year-old child who’s not had her moonblood either, and who’s an additional bonus point I’ll touch later.

- He’s no problem in providing boys for Corbray to rape them, and permits his presence near his stepson despite the child’s protestations. A person who’s no scruples about allowing others to rape minors with his aquiescence does not have them about corrupting minors himself. Many procurers of boys and girls for the prostitution market are paedophiles themselves, though not always.

Now, over to his obsession with Sansa:

- It’s not her he cares about. His first words to her show that it was Catelyn he saw in that girl.

- She’s 13 now and flowered, so the paedophilia criterion no longer applies, but the molestation and sexual assault of a minor still applies. He’s already molesting her, he kisses and gropes her against her will; he will not rape her in the grabber fashion because he prefers the groomer fashion.

- He wants her to call him father, to be his daughter in her heart as well, and yet, he wants her as a lover as well. The incest undercurrent here is double: father-daughter and mother-son. Yes, Littlefinger has incest issues on all sides, as a father towards Alayne, and as a son towards his own mother. He was the one who choose Alayne for Sansa, his mother’s name. The perversity of it all is that he projects his own unresolved issues with his mother on her as well as Catelyn by willingly and consciously giving his mother’s name to the child he plans to groom to become his lover in the place of the child’s mother. As a clinician, Milady knows this because of the pattern in his molesting of her is typical of mother-son incest, subtler than the father-daughter dynamic laypersons usually recognise on sight.

Considering all this, it’s curious that someone still wonders why Littlefinger gets more criticism than other men involved with younger women. And I’ve only touched the sexual aspect; others have mentioned the other problematic points.

[SeanF]

The only potential query I have is with regard to the "boys" that he supplies to Ser Lyn Corbray. The may be pre-pubescent boys, adolescents, or male prostitutes over the age of majority. We don't know for certain which.

[Where Boars Glow]

I was noticing that among the things Littlefinger is criticized for is his obvious creeping on Sansa. People were calling him a pedophile, creepy etc....which seems justifiable given that Sansa's like what 14(?) during her time at the Eyrie. In our modern society that's definitely a low number and unsettling. However I think most of the readers subsconsiously or otherwise accept and recognize that in the middle ages/fantasy setting that GRRM is shooting for people were considered adults at younger ages and at 13 even girls were considered women.

I think this is demonstrated with Daenerys, whom at the time of her marriage with Khal Drogo is about the same age as Sansa. Unlike Sansa though Danaerys' relationship with Drogo goes well beyond semi-platonic, she even carries his child. I was just like "huh...nobody ever calls Drogo on that" Now is this because ya know, they had just been married, it's right after the wedding, its assumed that they have to get it poppin. But that doesn't change the fact that she was still a young, young teenager, even if its customary. The same age Littlefinger seems to be going for in Sansa, yet he is called a pedophile. Is this because LF is a more unlikable/sinister character than Drogo or because he seems to be manipulating Sansa and trying to court or something?

I have no dog in the fight I'm really just curious. It seems like marrying a 14 year old is all the rage in Westeros/Essos and I was wondering why LF stood out compared to other people like Drogo, Daario, etc...

Don't forget Rheagar.

[Axrendale]

I would consider rephrasing that. Even by Westerosi standards, this situation was nothing like a 'regular' arranged marriage. Refraining from forcing yourself on a 12-year-old hostage who has just been married to you almost literally at swordpoint, as part of a war against her family and a hostile takeover of her ancestral home, isn't really much of a testimony to anyone's 'character'. It says you're not a completely unfeeling brute, and that's about it.

I don't think that anybody denies that Sansa's situation was completely awful, and that only the worst kind of brute would not have felt badly for her on some level. But Tyrion's decision not to force himself on her says more about him than just signalling a minimal level of humanity. By refusing to have sex with Sansa, Tyrion was defying what was in effect a direct order from his father - the most powerful and dangerous man in the realm, who had psychologically abused him since early childhood, and who once forced him to participate in a gang-rape to teach him a "lesson" - to carry out an action that was supposed to secure control of the North itself for the Lannisters. However much it might pale in comparison to the enormity of Sansa's suffering, this was undoubtedly an important character moment for Tyrion - whether one chooses to interpret his forbearance as allowing his humanistic instincts to override selfish political considerations and personal inner demons, or as an expression of those demons (in which case it becomes more an outburst of defiance like his decision to bring Shae to King's Landing than an act of mercy), or both.

[Castel]

I would say that LF is more of a psychopath than a pedophile. His pedophilic tendencies seem to be based on his obsession with Cat rather than any general attraction and his problems with prostitution are most likely a result of having no empathy.

[Theda Baratheon]

I would say that LF is more of a psychopath than a pedophile. His pedophilic tendencies seem to be based on his obsession with Cat rather than any general attraction and his problems with prostitution are most likely a result of having no empathy.

Aye; I'm inclined to agree. The Sansa thing is so creepy because she's basically a Catelyn 2.0 to him.

[Daphne23]

By refusing to have sex with Sansa, Tyrion was defying what was in effect a direct order from his father - the most powerful and dangerous man in the realm, who had psychologically abused him since early childhood, and who once forced him to participate in a gang-rape to teach him a "lesson" - to carry out an action that was supposed to secure control of the North itself for the Lannisters. However much it might pale in comparison to the enormity of Sansa's suffering, this was undoubtedly an important character moment for Tyrion

I'd find this argument much more convincing if Tyrion had actually refused to marry Sansa in the first place. I think that would indeed have been a defining character moment for him and the beginnings of emancipation from Tywin's domination, and the course of the series would have looked very different. Sadly, it was not to be.

[Axrendale]

I'd find this argument much more convincing if Tyrion had actually refused to marry Sansa in the first place. I think that would indeed have been a defining character moment for him and the beginnings of emancipation from Tywin's domination, and the course of the series would have looked very different. Sadly, it was not to be.

That presumes that Tyrion had any more choice about the actual marriage taking place than Sansa did. Tywin's charade about using Lancel instead was nothing more than a sham, and Tyrion knew it. He had no more agency when it came to resisting his father's plans than Cersei did. It was in the one crucial area where Tyrion did have some agency - to be wedded, but not bedded - that he chose to exercise it, and spit on his father's intentions.

[Milady of York]

The only potential query I have is with regard to the "boys" that he supplies to Ser Lyn Corbray.

We aren’t given the boys’ ages, true, because it's never going to be so obvious. Yet there is no concept of adolescents in this setting, as per GRRM himself, and the use of the word boys indicates that they are minors, as it’s mostly the young ones who are addressed as such, whether below or above puberty it’s not stated so clearly. Sweetrobin’s reaction to Corbray indicates that it’s little boys Corbray prefers, and that’s what we can glean from the text.

I would say that LF is more of a psychopath than a pedophile.

Even if you could clinically diagnose him as such, both conditions aren't mutually exclusive, though. Various disorders can and do coexist, and many conditions share the same characteristics.

[mormont]

I don't think that anybody denies that Sansa's situation was completely awful, and that only the worst kind of brute would not have felt badly for her on some level. But Tyrion's decision not to force himself on her says more about him than just signalling a minimal level of humanity.

No. It really doesn't.

By refusing to have sex with Sansa, Tyrion was defying what was in effect a direct order from his father - the most powerful and dangerous man in the realm, who had psychologically abused him since early childhood, and who once forced him to participate in a gang-rape to teach him a "lesson" - to carry out an action that was supposed to secure control of the North itself for the Lannisters.

Not really. As Daphne23 says, he went along with Tywin's orders to marry Sansa. He never openly defies Tywin on the subject of taking Sansa's maidenhood, either: he prevaricates or changes the subject. What's actually happening here is Tyrion's usual pattern with his father: he basically acquiesces to Tywin's orders, but tries to find some little way of retaining a minor, personal independence. It's just the same as bringing Shae to King's Landing - he's not strong enough to do anything but obey his father, but he wants to have some way of keeping a little corner of control, some line he won't cross in the process. Here, it's that minimal level of humanity, nothing more.

However much it might pale in comparison to the enormity of Sansa's suffering, this was undoubtedly an important character moment for Tyrion

I don't see it. It doesn't alter his relationship with his father - it takes the Tysha revelation to do that. At most, it re-emphasises to Tyrion that his romantic dreams are unrealistic.

[Axrendale]

Not really. As Daphne23 says, he went along with Tywin's orders to marry Sansa. He never openly defies Tywin on the subject of taking Sansa's maidenhood, either: he prevaricates or changes the subject. What's actually happening here is Tyrion's usual pattern with his father: he basically acquiesces to Tywin's orders, but tries to find some little way of retaining a minor, personal independence. It's just the same as bringing Shae to King's Landing - he's not strong enough to do anything but obey his father, but he wants to have some way of keeping a little corner of control, some line he won't cross in the process. Here, it's that minimal level of humanity, nothing more.

You're contradicting yourself here. You say that Tyrion "basically acquiesces to Tywin's orders" - he doesn't, in other of these instances. Tywin ordered him not to take Shae with him to court - he brought her into the city, and eventually lodged her in the Red Keep. Tywin ordered him to take Sansa's maidenhead - and he didn't, no matter how much pressure and mockery he was subjected to over it. No matter what kind of evasions Tyrion might have tried to take about his defiance, there is no question that the defiance was there.

[Lyanna Stark]

Tbh instead of turning this into a Tyrion discussion, it may be useful to take that discussion to the Tyrion reread thread where this has recently been discussed.