What one thing would you improve in the tv series in season 3 if you could!

[Le Cygne]

OK, but I feel like you care about it a little bit more than that.

And you don't? I haven't been talking to myself.

Do you want to talk about something else? The only part of the story I don't care much about is... well, can't think of anything right now.

[Newstar]

The problem with the unkiss' significance is that the writers have indicated that they don't want to do flashbacks, and they seem to cut out all but the most important dreams/visions (HotU, wolf dreams). It will be interesting if there's a departure from that general policy to have a flashback indicating that Sansa is "remembering" the unkiss.

There hasn't really been anything in the TV show as of yet to indicate that Sansa misremembers things (such as her genuinely getting mixed up with what happened at the Trident). If Sansa's lapse in memory regarding the Hound is as important as GRRM claims, then I'd think the writers would have to come up with some way of incorporating it, though.

"Sansa and Sandor: Make it clear she's thinking about him, and he's thinking about her. Make it clear (again, like in Blackwater) he would never hurt her."

To be really, brutal, though, there's no indication that the Hound's thoughts about Sansa will have any bearing on what happens in the future past ADWD. There is a strong indication that Sansa's mistaken memory as to the Hound will have some bearing on the plot in the future, but it might be the same way that her mentor Littlefinger's mistaken memory about having had sex with Catelyn and not Lysa laid the groundwork for his bitterness/ambition, and, as we know, Littlefinger and Catelyn hadn't seen each other for many years prior to the events of AGOT.

So I don't see how it would necessarily "improve" Season 3 to make sure that it's clear that the Hound is thinking about Sansa, when it's not clear at all that his thoughts about Sansa will be in any way important in the upcoming books. The writers didn't seem to think that Book Hound's sexual/romantic interest in Sansa merited translation to the TV adaptation, so I don't know why they would include a bunch of dialogue indicating the Hound crowing over Arya's "pretty" sister, or brooding over news of her marriage to Tyrion. (Not to mention that the TV adaptation has also eliminated any connection between Sansa and songs, which was one of her main links to the Hound in the books.)

As for the Hound never hurting Sansa...well, I did believe, thanks to the writing/characterization changes for the Hound in Season 2, that TV Hound would never hurt Sansa. Book Hound, on the other hand...it's interesting that ASOS Sansa remembers that the Hound kissed her and threatened to kill her, while AFFC Sansa/Alayne is all about the kiss. Maybe it's because she sees through to the Hound's good intentions so that she can discount his violent actions, or maybe she's lying to herself to make the truth more palatable, as Littlefinger lied to himself about Catelyn.

[Le Cygne]

They were using Shae as a way for her to voice her thoughts. And he's got Arya to talk to.

We're cross posting, that's why I know you all care, you really do. :)

So I don't see how it would necessarily "improve" Season 3 to make sure that it's clear that the Hound is thinking about Sansa.

What the Hound does in the book that season 3 is based on is very much to do with Sansa. He brings her up many times just to underscore that, but it's quite obvious they have a connection and it's based on his past, too. If you don't see that, not sure what more I can say. It's in the text.

[King Tommen]

I think if there's one trend we can note from the show (that D&D have acknowledged) is that unlike the novels, they aren't very enthusiastic about introducing elements that won't be dealt with many seasons from now. They clearly have not forgotten about these things but are more likely to start introducing these elements much closer to when they become relevant to the story they are trying to tell. I think this irks a lot of readers because they want things like prophecies and mysteries to be brought into play exactly when they were in the novels and when they don't see it happen then, they think that those things will never be addressed.

But TV shows aren't novels and the methods you can use in literature to keep an idea in the forefront cannot be used in television so some of the hardcore fans are going to have to get used to stuff happening not exactly when they're expecting it to.

An example of a slight change is that in Season 2, Barristan Selmy was mentioned more than once by characters in conversations most likely for the sole purpose of preparing the audience for his re-introduction at the start of Season 3. If he wasn't going to reappear until Season 5 or 6, you probably wouldn't hear about him until a lot closer to that time.

[Newstar]

The thing with long-running TV adaptations is that you can't really drop a character for two or three seasons entirely and then bring them back again. It plays merry hell with contracts and the like. So, with a cast as big as this one, you have to come up with something for characters to do in the intervening period, to keep the actors around. Unfortunately, GRRM will often put a character on back burner for a long time and then reintroduce that character in a big way.

What the Hound does in the book that season 3 is based on is very much to do with Sansa. He brings her up many times just to underscore that, but it's quite obvious they have a connection and it's based on his past, too. If you don't see that, not sure what more I can say. It's in the text.

His references to Sansa, within ASOS, are indeed important, as it's strongly suggested that his feelings for Sansa (however you want to characterize them), his guilt over his actions towards her (refusal to intervene to end her beatings, intent to rape her the night of Blackwater, forcing her to sing for him) and his despair at her horrible fate (married off to Tyrion) help drive him to his breakdown at the end of ASOS, so yes, absolutely, in the book, it's important within that context. However, there's no indication that it will be important beyond that, as in pointing to a future relationship between the two, whereas Sansa's memory lapse with respect to the unkiss will clearly be important. So in that respect, Sansa's thoughts about the Hound are more important than the Hound's thoughts about Sansa. And, as I mentioned, because TV Hound doesn't seem to have the sexual/romantic interest in Sansa his book equivalent had, the writers might not have any interest in showing his thoughts about her, again, except to push him to his breakdown, which pretty much caps off his arc in ASOS. In addition to lacking any apparent sexual/romantic interest in Sansa, TV Hound has a lot less to feel guilty about with respect to Sansa, as well, since he behaved himself much better and his offer to take her with him was downright gentlemanly.

There were no violent actions. He has never hurt her.

You're kidding, right? He shoved her down on the bed, pressed a knife to her throat, and threatened to kill her. In the TV show, I agree, there were no violent actions on his part.

That's not conclusive, either, as you know. There is the fact that he never said that

"I took the song, she never gave it. I meant to take her, too. I should have. I should have [screwed] her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

In the commentary for an episode of season 1, Benioff said more SanSan is on the way.

And there's a quote from an Inside the Episode, “He’s attracted to her because she’s the thing he can never have.”

And yet, in the two seasons, any hint from the books that the Hound was attracted to her or felt anything other than a benign, fraternal, protective impulse was completely eliminated. No leering at her, no commenting on her breasts, no calling her pretty, no manhandling her or even touching her except for the rescue. So that might have been the intent as of Season 1, but that's not how it was written and not how it came across. TV Hound cared for Sansa ("I didn't do it for you"), but TV Hound could have been gay without altering those scenes in any sense, and it was actually really refreshing.

[Le Cygne]

The writers didn't seem to think that Book Hound's sexual/romantic interest in Sansa merited translation to the TV adaptation, so I don't know why they would include a bunch of dialogue indicating the Hound crowing over Arya's "pretty" sister, or brooding over news of her marriage to Tyrion.

In the commentary for an episode of season 1, Benioff said more SanSan is on the way.

And there's a quote from Inside the Episode, Benioff said, "He's attracted to her because she's the thing he can never have."

The filming of several scenes so far, especially the rescue last season, was very romance novel.

I have no idea where they are going to go with this, but I don't believe it merited no interest.

As for the Hound never hurting Sansa...well, I did believe, thanks to the writing/characterization changes for the Hound in Season 2, that TV Hound would never hurt Sansa. Book Hound, on the other hand...it's interesting that ASOS Sansa remembers that the Hound kissed her and threatened to kill her, while AFFC Sansa/Alayne is all about the kiss. Maybe it's because she sees through to the Hound's good intentions so that she can discount his violent actions, or maybe she's lying to herself to make the truth more palatable, as Littlefinger lied to himself about Catelyn.

There were no violent actions. He has never hurt her. She got under his cloak and kept it. She imagined he kissed her. That's pretty significant. And not the way you act if you think someone is going to hurt you.

intent to rape her the night of Blackwater

That's not conclusive, either, as you know. There is the fact that he never said that. Also to be considered, the context of the scene and the body of his past behavior toward Sansa, which is characterized by his television portrayal, in which the author himself had him say: "I won't hurt you."

Would you please respond below the posts? You added all the responses to what I said here in your post above. I'll answer in a new one.

[Le Cygne]

ETA spoiler tag/quotes:

About the line in question, he said he meant to take her away from Kings Landing, and I should have done it before I let him do it is an exp

ression. And the heart is symbolic of love. Also, he was feverish with an infected wound and was trying to talk Arya into killing him to put him out of his misery. And Arya said he often spoke in a rough way and yet didn't behave that way.

AND we see the line in the show that seems to clear that up. The author conveyed Sandor's intent in these lines (very similar to the lines in the book):

"I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe. Do you want to go home?... No, Little Bird, I won't hurt you."

Sansa remembers that night this way, not only does she know he would never hurt her, she wishes he was still there and regrets not going with him (she also remembers his "kiss" and he remembers her song, they both romanticize that night throughout book 3, while thinking about each other often):

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside… she could scarcely imagine it.

The HBO viewer's guide states he "has a soft spot for Sansa Stark and is quick to protect her from Joffrey's cruel whims".

Interviewer 1: "I'm a big fan of the Hound, myself."

GRRM: "There are all these people out there, who are as they call themselves the SanSan fans, they want to see Sandor and Sansa get together in the end."

Interviewer 2: "The TV show has played with that a little, probably stoked those fires, I would think."

GRRM: "Well sure, and I've played with it in the books, there's something there."

Interviewer 1: "I'm not going to say that hasn't crossed my mind."

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cLynybVOi2I

David Benioff: "He's attracted to her, because she represents the thing he can never have, and she's so completely opposite to him."

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Ms7ofQRonKo

Brian Cogman: "I want to assure the fans out there that the Hound and Sansa subplot is alive and well and it's just going to play out a little differently from the book."

Later clarifies: "I just meant that it plays out a bit differently since LF gave the info instead of Hound… but that the relationship is still explored."

http://winteriscomin...terviewed-live/

So the attraction is there. They made him nicer on the show, but that's picking up on the subtext that's under his harsh words (he's often described as being very gentle with her, and he's certainly very protective):

Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

About ages:

GRRM: "Dany is only 13 in the books, and that's based on medieval history. They didn't have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books."

Dany got married at 13 in the books (season 1 timeline). They aged up the younger characters for the show. Sansa is two years older on the show than in the books, so she'd be 15-16 this season.

http://awoiaf.wester...s_and_TV_series

Drogo, Sandor, and Tyrion are/were all about the same ages.

[Dragon greyscale]

I really don't see the issue here... I don't care for this shipping business, but if you're craving for it there is definitely "something" between them in the show.He is her protector in a weird fucked up way and it's not as if their ambiguous relationship has been completely ignored. He rescues her and stands between her and Joff a couple of times. Any romance is deeply hidden in subtext which is pretty much the same broad strokes I got from the books. It might be somewhat of a condensed version but so is everything else that D&D took from the books. It's the nature of the medium people.

[Le Cygne]

Why do you say "shipping"?

Also I have no problem with condensed, essential is all that matters to me.

[Khal Pono]

are you asking what the slang term "shipping" means? Well, in the sense it's being used here, "to ship" is a verb, short for "relationship" where fans discuss which characters they would like to see get together, or which ones they believe are destined to get together romantically.

So that's what it means if a fan is "shipping" Sansa and Sandor.

[Le Cygne]

Thank you. I like just thinking of it as enjoying a story.

Cleaned up some spoilers...

[Dragon greyscale]

Also I have no problem with condensed, essential is all that matters to me.

That's the point of condensing. Leave out the fluff and end up with the essence.

In this specific case: there's "something" between Sandor and Sansa but people (readers and viewers) disagree about its significance. So yeah, I think they succeeded in bringing that to screen.

[Le Cygne]

I wouldn't mind a little more essence, a little less Ros.

[Danelle]

But Sansa wasn't thinking about him that much anyway. That's not following the books; that's just satisfying SanSan fans.

SPOILERS

There is a debate about Sansa and Sandor, some speculate that their romance is a lot like the song a bear and a maiden fair. Likewise there is a debate whether Jaime and Brienne are in love. Jaime saved Brienne and gave her a purpose, a mission and in her mind he has replaced Renly but it doesn't say anywhere in the books that Brienne loves Jaime. He is gorgeous, she is ugly but despite that they do care for each other. Sansa and Sandor are similar. The only difference is that unlike Jaime, Sansa and Brienne, Sandor is not a POV character. I don't ship characters but there are hints that they like each other. For example. Sansa is the only person to whom Sandor told the story of hus burning. Sandor was Joffrey's and a Lannister man and the only KG not to abuse Sansa. During the riot he risked his life to save her. When Sansa thinks of knights she realises that the only men who tried to help her were not knights. Dontos was a fool, Tyrion was an imp and Sandor refused to become a knihght. It turned out that Dontos was working for LF, Tyrion is a decent human being and as such he couldn't stand the abuse of a little girl but Sandor protected Sansa because he was taken by her beauty, kindness and good manners. When Sansa admits to LF that Tyrion never abused her or raped her, LF mentions the incident with Tysha in order to diminish Tyrion. Yet Sansa has not told LF about Sandor and I think that she appreciates the fact that Sandor loved her and the only thing he asked from her was a song.

[Le Cygne]

Love and beauty, those are things that can't really be defined in black and white terms.

I talked about this on the other thread, sorry...