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Littlefinger triggered Jeoffrey into beheading Ned Stark?


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#1 StannisEndGame

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:09 AM

Ok guys, so this is my first post etc and this might have even been sugested before but I couldn't find a topic about it so here it goes.

My question is if it's possible that Littlefinger somehow triggered Jeoffrey into beheading Ned (like he inspired him to have the jousting dwarfs at the purple wedding.)

I have no real proof for this conclusion from the text but IMO it makes sense in many ways.

1. We know that LF wanted to start a conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters, if Ned had lived they might have gotten peace.
2. Since being friendzone by Catelyn Tully and whatnot he might have wanted to see Eddard dead from the very beginning. It would also be a way to not let Catelyn understand the whole betrayal scenario because if Ned have lived he would surely have told Cat what a scumbag her childhood friend Petyr was.
3. He seems to be one of the few persons that Jeoffrey actually (for some reason) listened too and Jeoffrey had no real reason to go aganst his mothers plans except from pure malice.

This struck me the first time I read GoT and I still see it as a viable scenario.

What do you think?

#2 Scipio Africanus

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:26 AM

I believe Varys does suggest LF talked Joff into it. However there's little actual evidence that Joff needed much convincing. He told Sansa he viewed Eddard as a traitor and it's very obvious from the actual excecution scene he wanted to look tough in front of the crowd.

People think Joff is nothing more then a little pathetic cowardly schmuck and well, he is. But he got the idea to kill off Bran on his own, as he was the one who nicked daddy's dagger from his stash and gave it to the assassin.

I personally think LF didn't need to do much convincing in the case of Joff and Eddard. I think Joff wanted to demonstrate his authority and look cool by killing Eddard.
Of course this plays right into Varys' and LF's plans to flame the war between the Starks and Lannisters. But Joff really isn't that bright and with Cercei as his mom you can bet no good ideas will ever come from him. Which is why Tywin was desperate enough to send Tyrion to KL and have him run the show.

#3 Hear me Meow

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:27 AM

Maybe it was an easy thing to do but I suspected it was LF behind the execution.

Big LF has now polished off three hands. Dude is just dynamite.

#4 Little Wing

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:39 AM

I wouldn't put it past LF but I think the beheading was all Joff. Ever since the conflict with Arya over Mycah he wanted to get back at Sansa, who saw him wiggle like the worm he is at Arya's feet, although Sansa didn't actually do anything to him, except witness his cowardice and pettiness... just like Lady didn't do anything...

#5 Buckwheat

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:42 AM

Ok guys, so this is my first post etc and this might have even been sugested before but I couldn't find a topic about it so here it goes.

Everything has been suggested before, including this theory. There is a useful search function on the site. Still, welcome to the forum, enjoy the discussing! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

However there's little actual evidence that Joff needed much convincing. He told Sansa he viewed Eddard as a traitor and it's very obvious from the actual excecution scene he wanted to look tough in front of the crowd.

I agree with this and everything else in your post. Joff was really just being a showoff, and while Littlefinger was capable of manipulating pretty much anybody, he did not really need to be persuading Joffrey to kill Eddard. It fell in line with his plans, so we can assume that he might have suggested something like it in Joffrey's hearing - but most of it was done by Joffrey himself.

#6 Lummel

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:56 AM

...My question is if it's possible that Littlefinger somehow triggered Jeoffrey into beheading Ned (like he inspired him to have the jousting dwarfs at the purple wedding.)

I have no real proof for this conclusion from the text but IMO it makes sense in many ways...

Well that's exactly what Varys implies to Tyrion in Tyrion II, ACOK. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#7 voodooqueen126

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:39 AM

Well that's exactly what Varys implies to Tyrion in Tyrion II, ACOK. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Yes I agree, Littlefinger probably did plant the idea to Joffrey.
But the word 'trigger' is one of those words people use in therapy.
so probably not quite the right word.

#8 The Drunkard

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:44 AM

All it would take is LF saying 'I'm sure the spectators will be thankful for the Queen's decision, your Grace', and Joff would've done the opposite to show how independant he is.

#9 Beets

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:45 AM

2. Since being friendzone by Catelyn Tully and whatnot he might have wanted to see Eddard dead from the very beginning. It would also be a way to not let Catelyn understand the whole betrayal scenario because if Ned have lived he would surely have told Cat what a scumbag her childhood friend Petyr was.

I don't think this would have worked for him. He was in the friendzone, but if he killed Cat's hubby, Cat would go Warrior Queen all over the Lannisters, and he'd have a war instead of a Catelyn. I think his original plan was to have Ned sent to the Wall with no way to interact with Catelyn. Catelyn, as a widow, would be less marriageable and within the reach of a rather wealthy though not very highborn minor noble like himself. Since Petyr was Cat's childhood friend, and Cat would be pressured to find a husband, Petyr would be an easy option for her, and with a bit more tweaking and a murder or two, Petyr would be Mr. Catelyn Tully. The scary part is that this might have worked if Joff hadn't gone nutty and killed Ned.

If we operate on the assumption that Petyr had already given up on Catelyn and set his sights on Sansa (he apparently asked Cersei for a marriage), then your scenario is absolutely plausible and more than likely what actually happened.

#10 Scipio Africanus

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:56 AM

If we operate on the assumption that Petyr had already given up on Catelyn and set his sights on Sansa (he apparently asked Cersei for a marriage), then your scenario is absolutely plausible and more than likely what actually happened.


First scenario is more likely then the second. Because he did not know of Sansa till Eddard brought her to KL. Didn't Petyr meet Eddard and Catelyn before he saw her at the tourney? Can't remember now.

But anyway Petyr actually didn't set out to betray Eddard first chance he got, initially. He even advised Eddard on how to deal with the results of Bob's death. Letting Joff rule in name but Eddard defacto ruling the country. Only after Eddard remained adement in his view that Stan was the only succesor did he think about ridding himself of Eddard permenantly, because he and Stan weren't exactly friends and he knew he was only to get the axe as a reward from Stan.

Edited by Scipio Africanus, 13 October 2012 - 08:59 AM.


#11 Mr Bell

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:32 AM

I always believed as much. But knowing Littlefinger, he probably didn't do anything directly.

#12 Blackfish Tully

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:19 AM

I posted this on another topic but it really applies to this topic

Littlefinger would have probaly have used reverse psychology to convince Joffrey to take Ned's head . Something like " It was a good decision your Grace to spare Ned Stark , it will show the people that your are a gentle and merciful King who listens to the advice of his Mother and is willing to spare a traitor because his future wife , whose brother is also a traitor, has begged him to . Your enemies will really respect this gentle forgiving act. "

#13 Ragnorak

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:32 AM

Aside from Varys implying it, we have the jousting dwarves at the Purple Wedding. LF explicitly tells Sansa how he manipulated Joffrey into going after Tyrion. I think we're supposed to put 2 and 2 together and figure out Ned's beheading.

#14 Anwar

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:47 AM

But he didn't plan the Purple Wedding himself, he had the Tyrells helping him. It's possible he was just telling Sansa half made-up BS to make himself look better and we still don't know how much of the PW was Littlefinger and how much was the Tyrells.

#15 Fire Eater

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:28 PM

Aside from Varys implying it, we have the jousting dwarves at the Purple Wedding. LF explicitly tells Sansa how he manipulated Joffrey into going after Tyrion. I think we're supposed to put 2 and 2 together and figure out Ned's beheading.


True, Joffrey may have willful, but like his mother he's a tool and predictable.

When Joffrey ordered Ned to be beheaded, Sansa did notice Littlefinger standing there calmly while everyone else on the small council was frantic and surprised.

Alive, Ned could be used as a hostage to negotiate a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun. Dead, the new Lord of Winterfell, Robb, along with the Northern and river lords, will be adamantly opposed to making a peace and pledging fealty to the Lannisters. Ned's death guarantees a longer war between the Starks and Lannisters.

Edited by Fire Eater, 13 October 2012 - 02:32 PM.


#16 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

Ok guys, so this is my first post etc and this might have even been sugested before but I couldn't find a topic about it so here it goes.

My question is if it's possible that Littlefinger somehow triggered Jeoffrey into beheading Ned (like he inspired him to have the jousting dwarfs at the purple wedding.)

I have no real proof for this conclusion from the text but IMO it makes sense in many ways.

1. We know that LF wanted to start a conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters, if Ned had lived they might have gotten peace.
2. Since being friendzone by Catelyn Tully and whatnot he might have wanted to see Eddard dead from the very beginning. It would also be a way to not let Catelyn understand the whole betrayal scenario because if Ned have lived he would surely have told Cat what a scumbag her childhood friend Petyr was.
3. He seems to be one of the few persons that Jeoffrey actually (for some reason) listened too and Jeoffrey had no real reason to go aganst his mothers plans except from pure malice.

This struck me the first time I read GoT and I still see it as a viable scenario.

What do you think?



I have considered this a few times myself.

We know he betrayed Ned, sure, but while Joffrey was a malignant shit, he still listened to his mother. All it would have taken was a few lies in his ear from LF and he would act "kingly", showing his mom and Varys and Pycelle who was really in charge. And doing it in front of thousands of people, so there was no way they could countermand him or talk him out of it ? This could easily be LFs advice at work.

(Of course, we could be wrong and Joffrey was just being his own shitty self.)

#17 voodooqueen126

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:01 PM

I don't think this would have worked for him. He was in the friendzone, but if he killed Cat's hubby, Cat would go Warrior Queen all over the Lannisters, and he'd have a war instead of a Catelyn. I think his original plan was to have Ned sent to the Wall with no way to interact with Catelyn. Catelyn, as a widow, would be less marriageable and within the reach of a rather wealthy though not very highborn minor noble like himself. Since Petyr was Cat's childhood friend, and Cat would be pressured to find a husband, Petyr would be an easy option for her, and with a bit more tweaking and a murder or two, Petyr would be Mr. Catelyn Tully. The scary part is that this might have worked if Joff hadn't gone nutty and killed Ned.

If we operate on the assumption that Petyr had already given up on Catelyn and set his sights on Sansa (he apparently asked Cersei for a marriage), then your scenario is absolutely plausible and more than likely what actually happened.

Yeah I think Petyr had given up on Catelyn and now hated her. Hence he sets his sights on Catelyn 0.2

#18 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:45 AM

First scenario is more likely then the second. Because he did not know of Sansa till Eddard brought her to KL. Didn't Petyr meet Eddard and Catelyn before he saw her at the tourney? Can't remember now.

But anyway Petyr actually didn't set out to betray Eddard first chance he got, initially. He even advised Eddard on how to deal with the results of Bob's death. Letting Joff rule in name but Eddard defacto ruling the country. Only after Eddard remained adement in his view that Stan was the only succesor did he think about ridding himself of Eddard permenantly, because he and Stan weren't exactly friends and he knew he was only to get the axe as a reward from Stan.


YYYYYYEEEESSSSSSSS! Thank you. If anything Petyr goes out of his way to help Ned. A Stannis kingship is merely intolerable for Petyr, what is he supposed to do wait around 30 years for Stannis to die? I mean assuming Stannis could have held the throne in the first place which he couldn't, so there was going to be war, with Petyr on one side and Ned on the other. And since there was going to be war, it was better to get in the first strike. There's no reason for Petyr to let Ned live, so Ned can send ravens from the wall complaining of how the "gold cloaks were supposed to be his". Dead men tell no tales.

He damned them all: Littlefinger, Janos Slynt and his gold cloaks, the queen, the Kingslayer, Pycelle and Varys and Ser Barristan, even Lord Renly, Robert’s own blood, who had run when he was needed most. Yet in the end he blamed himself. “Fool, “ he cried to the darkness, “thrice-damned blind fool.”....


The king heard him. “You stiff-necked fool,” he muttered, “too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?”



#19 Hear Us Roar

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:49 AM

Yes. The way things were going there was not gonna be a war. Ned would take the wall, the girls would be hostages and life would go on. The only person who benefits is LF who needs the chaos. When Joff says, " they have the soft hearts of women". It sounds like some offhand remark LF would say to Joffrey to get the ball rolling.

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 15 October 2012 - 01:50 AM.


#20 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:01 AM

Yes. The way things were going there was not gonna be a war. Ned would take the wall, the girls would be hostages and life would go on. The only person who benefits is LF who needs the chaos. When Joff says, " they have the soft hearts of women". It sounds like some offhand remark LF would say to Joffrey to get the ball rolling.

Uh, no sir.

Stannis is still going to proclaim himself king. Renly and Loras have already ridden for high garden. Neither one of them is going to let the Lannisters take over. And Riverlands have already been invaded. Edmure is still an idiot which has been revealed to all. So Robb is still going to have to fight to expell the lannisters from the riverlands and he is going to have to chose to support Stannis, Renly or Joffrey. You're telling me the starks are going to fight for the Lannisters against Stannis with the Lannisters occupying and burning the riverlands? Nothing changes, if Eddard takes the black. The realm is fundamentally unstable:

1) illlegetitmate heirs to the thrown
2) a weak liege lord of the riverlands
3) a legitimate heir without support from many major houses.

That situation is untenable because neither Stannis nor Joffrey are viable succesors.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 15 October 2012 - 02:04 AM.