Heresy 28

[Lummel]

no wargs are skinchangers, or better wargs are a particular type of skinchanger - those who are linked to wolves. The different status is greenseer. not all skinchangers are greenseers but all greenseers are wargs it is in Bran III (I think) ADWD.

[Little Wing]

Yep, I found the quote, edited it in my post as well :) I had it the other way round.

ETA: Here it is again, expanded version: GRRM: A warg is bound to a wolf. Skinchanger is a more general term. All wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are wargs.

And still, we haven't seen Jon warg any other animal but Ghost, that being my point before, or rather question, if there's something there.

[Melifeather]

I think Jon has the ability, he just seems to push it away. Arya is more in touch with her spirituality, and of course Bran is in closer touch than them all. I believe Rickon showed an ability as well, since he and his wolf showed similar personality traits.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I think Jon has the ability, he just seems to push it away. Arya is more in touch with her spirituality, and of course Bran is in closer touch than them all. I believe Rickon showed an ability as well, since he and his wolf showed similar personality traits.

I think Arya's blindness allowed her to reach out to the cat. I think Jon is about to powerup post Ides of Marsh.

[Little Wing]

Yep, noticed the difference between him and Bran and Arya before, but forgot to mention it, or ask if it may be another clue to his relationship with Ghost, if reaching him after the stabbing may prove an even better connection with the 3EC :dunno: I'm looking forward to your astrology post, Feather, though I really couldn't tell you if it has been discussed, I'm fairly new to Heresy as it is...

[Melifeather]

I have wanted to post this information on the Heresy thread for a long time, but hesitated because the information that I will be providing would be disturbing to any Christians on this forum. What I am about to present could shake your faith a bit. So, if you are worried about your faith, read no further.

I think GRRM is aware of the same information that I want to talk about, because he has been using some of the symbolism, and it may also help sort out some of the details that both interest and confound us.

There are many different cultures around the world and throughout history that have worshipped a solar supreme deity. They have many different names and cultural aspects, but for the most part, the raw images remain identical. GRRM has based his R’hllor religion on Christianity. No surprises here, but what I don’t believe has been discussed is Christianity’s origins coming from astrology and mankind’s natural wonder with the stars.

The festival of birth of the Unconquered Sun was celebrated on the winter solstice, the “rebirth” of the sun. The sun gods typically also “die” and “rise again”. Daenerys died and rose again in the funeral pyre. I think Aegon thought he could die and rise again at Summerhall. Some readers think Jon has died and will rise again. This dying and rising is based on the winter solstice when the sun is at its lowest point in the sky and then appears to hover on the horizon around December 21^st for three days before slowly appearing higher in the sky and therefore “rises again”.

The three stars of Orion’s belt mark the northern night sky when the sun is at its lowest point, and were a clear marker for ancient timekeeping. They have been called The Three Kings, and they start appearing around the holiday of Epiphany, when the Biblical Magi visited the baby Jesus, which falls on January 6.

There is also an Orion correlation theory which claims that there is a correlation between the location of the three largest pyramids of the Giza pyramid complex and the three middle stars of the constellation Orion, and that this correlation was intentional by the builders of the pyramids. Additional pyramids in the area can be included to complete the picture of the Orion constellation and the Nile River can be included to match the position of the Milky Way galaxy.

While I have yet to pinpoint any references to the Orion constellation in the books, we do have references to other constellations and to comets.

In Aztec mythology, according to their creation myth, their sun god demanded human sacrifice as tribute and without it, would refuse to move through the sky. It is said that 20,000 people were sacrificed each year to Tonatiuh (sun god). We don’t know for sure whether those numbers are accurate or just fear tactics. There are many references to human sacrifice in the books, notably Craster sacrificing his own sons. Perhaps he sacrifices to keep winter away, and is actually another R’hllorist?

It’s interesting to note that the Bible refers to God as the sun: “For the LORD your God is a consuming fire…” and “For the lord God is a sun and shield”. (Psalms 84:11 and Deuteronomy 4:24)

Also in Ezekiel, “And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about 25 men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshipping the sun toward the east.”

Jesus as the sun.

Many people have posited that Jesus was a sun-god for the age of Pisces. Here are some familiar phrases used to describe Jesus that are in fact references to the actual sun:

The sun is the “Light” of the World." (John 8:12)

The sun is “anointed” when its rays dip into the sea.

The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind," as well as the "healer" or "savior" during the day.

The sun wears a corona "crown of thorns" or halo.

The sun "walks on water," describing its reflection. (John 6:19)

The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass annually.

The sun at 12 noon is "Most High" in the sky; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.

The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.

The sun's warmth turns water into wine through ripening grapes

An astrological age, or phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes, is a time period in which one age lasts about 25,920 years. We are currently in the age of Pisces, the symbol of which is two fishes. Whenever we see references to Pisces in the Bible represented by Jesus , we also see two fishes. The age before Pisces was Aries, the symbol of which is the Ram, and the age before Aries was Taurus, the symbol of which is the Bull.

In the Old Testament, when Moses came down with the 10 commandments, the people were worshipping a golden bull calf (Taurus) which was the symbol for the earlier sun-god religion that worshipped Mithras. Moses represented the new age of Aries the Ram. That is why there was fighting amongst the people for not moving into the new age of Aries and shed the old age of Taurus. It is also why Jews even today still blow the Ram’s horn. The Night’s Watch blows horns, the First men blew horns, and now Victarion has a horn. Can we assume, then that anyone that places importance on blowing horns belongs with the old outlived age of Aries, and may not survive the new ages of Pisces (Daenerys) and Aquarius (Starks)?

Fast forward to today, we are living in the latter part of the Age of Pisces. In the year 2600, it has been calculated that we will be entering the Age of Aquarius and there will be an attempt by astrologers to calculate the entry of the spring equinox point into the constellation of Aquarius.

In the New Testament, Jesus’s followers asked him when the next Passover (age) will be and Jesus replied, “Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there, shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water (the symbol for Aquarius)….follow him into the house where he entereth in…” – Luke 22:10

Ancient cultures like the Mayans, viewed the Age of Aquarius as a time of enlightenment. It has been dubbed The Age of Freedom, Technology (especially space travel and electricity) and the Water Bearer.

I’ve read some of the discussion on the forums regarding water, the moon, and Moonsingers. I’m starting to suspect that Arya, along with all the Stark kids, will signal the Age of Aquarius to Westeros with her return, along with the knowledge of the Moonsingers, and beginning of an age of enlightenment.

[alienarea]

I have wanted to post this information on the Heresy thread for a long time, but hesitated because the information that I will be providing would be disturbing to any Christians on this forum. What I am about to present could shake your faith a bit. So, if you are worried about your faith, read no further.

I think GRRM is aware of the same information that I want to talk about, because he has been using some of the symbolism, and it may also help sort out some of the details that both interest and confound us.

There are many different cultures around the world and throughout history that have worshipped a solar supreme deity. They have many different names and cultural aspects, but for the most part, the raw images remain identical. GRRM has based his R’hllor religion on Christianity. No surprises here, but what I don’t believe has been discussed is Christianity’s origins coming from astrology and mankind’s natural wonder with the stars.

The festival of birth of the Unconquered Sun was celebrated on the winter solstice, the “rebirth” of the sun. The sun gods typically also “die” and “rise again”. Daenerys died and rose again in the funeral pyre. I think Aegon thought he could die and rise again at Summerhall. Some readers think Jon has died and will rise again. This dying and rising is based on the winter solstice when the sun is at its lowest point in the sky and then appears to hover on the horizon around December 21^st for three days before slowly appearing higher in the sky and therefore “rises again”.

The three stars of Orion’s belt mark the northern night sky when the sun is at its lowest point, and were a clear marker for ancient timekeeping. They have been called The Three Kings, and they start appearing around the holiday of Epiphany, when the Biblical Magi visited the baby Jesus, which falls on January 6.

There is also an Orion correlation theory which claims that there is a correlation between the location of the three largest pyramids of the Giza pyramid complex and the three middle stars of the constellation Orion, and that this correlation was intentional by the builders of the pyramids. Additional pyramids in the area can be included to complete the picture of the Orion constellation and the Nile River can be included to match the position of the Milky Way galaxy.

While I have yet to pinpoint any references to the Orion constellation in the books, we do have references to other constellations and to comets.

In Aztec mythology, according to their creation myth, their sun god demanded human sacrifice as tribute and without it, would refuse to move through the sky. It is said that 20,000 people were sacrificed each year to Tonatiuh (sun god). We don’t know for sure whether those numbers are accurate or just fear tactics. There are many references to human sacrifice in the books, notably Craster sacrificing his own sons. Perhaps he sacrifices to keep winter away, and is actually another R’hllorist?

It’s interesting to note that the Bible refers to God as the sun: “For the LORD your God is a consuming fire…” and “For the lord God is a sun and shield”. (Psalms 84:11 and Deuteronomy 4:24)

Also in Ezekiel, “And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about 25 men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshipping the sun toward the east.”

Jesus as the sun.

Many people have posited that Jesus was a sun-god for the age of Pisces. Here are some familiar phrases used to describe Jesus that are in fact references to the actual sun:

The sun is the “Light” of the World." (John 8:12)

The sun is “anointed” when its rays dip into the sea.

The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind," as well as the "healer" or "savior" during the day.

The sun wears a corona "crown of thorns" or halo.

The sun "walks on water," describing its reflection. (John 6:19)

The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass annually.

The sun at 12 noon is "Most High" in the sky; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.

The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.

The sun's warmth turns water into wine through ripening grapes

An astrological age, or phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes, is a time period in which one age lasts about 25,920 years. We are currently in the age of Pisces, the symbol of which is two fishes. Whenever we see references to Pisces in the Bible represented by Jesus , we also see two fishes. The age before Pisces was Aries, the symbol of which is the Ram, and the age before Aries was Taurus, the symbol of which is the Bull.

In the Old Testament, when Moses came down with the 10 commandments, the people were worshipping a golden bull calf (Taurus) which was the symbol for the earlier sun-god religion that worshipped Mithras. Moses represented the new age of Aries the Ram. That is why there was fighting amongst the people for not moving into the new age of Aries and shed the old age of Taurus. It is also why Jews even today still blow the Ram’s horn. The Night’s Watch blows horns, the First men blew horns, and now Victarion has a horn. Can we assume, then that anyone that places importance on blowing horns belongs with the old outlived age of Aries, and may not survive the new ages of Pisces (Daenerys) and Aquarius (Starks)?

Fast forward to today, we are living in the latter part of the Age of Pisces. In the year 2600, it has been calculated that we will be entering the Age of Aquarius and there will be an attempt by astrologers to calculate the entry of the spring equinox point into the constellation of Aquarius.

In the New Testament, Jesus’s followers asked him when the next Passover (age) will be and Jesus replied, “Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there, shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water (the symbol for Aquarius)….follow him into the house where he entereth in…” – Luke 22:10

Ancient cultures like the Mayans, viewed the Age of Aquarius as a time of enlightenment. It has been dubbed The Age of Freedom, Technology (especially space travel and electricity) and the Water Bearer.

I’ve read some of the discussion on the forums regarding water, the moon, and Moonsingers. I’m starting to suspect that Arya, along with all the Stark kids, will signal the Age of Aquarius to Westeros with her return, along with the knowledge of the Moonsingers, and beginning of an age of enlightenment.

Wow. I guess we read a few similar books apart from ASoIaF. Anything by Graham Hancock and maybe Sun of God?

[Little Wing]

Oh, Graham Hancock - he wrote about the pyramids, right? Gotta go for now, be back to read up, though!

[Melifeather]

Wow. I guess we read a few similar books apart from ASoIaF. Anything by Graham Hancock and maybe Sun of God?

Actually, no. Believe it or not, I used to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so I was taught a pretty thorough examination of the Scriptures. This was in my late 20's when I converted from Catholicism to JW's, but I was later disfellowshipped for divorcing and dating secular men. A few years ago I watched the documentary Zeitgeist, which opened my eyes to the sun-gods through history. The rest was further investigation and reading after that.

[Little Wing]

Oh, R'hllorism is also heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism , I have come to learn on these forums. I mentioned Dazhbog before, a solar deity from Slavic mythology - he's a wolf that limps when the sun "dies" until it is "born" again around Christmas time. Makes me think of a limping Ned in AGoT...

[Black Wolf Smith]

A thought just occurred to me. Perhaps the "witch" needed at Summerhall was the Ghost of High Heart? She's known as a woods witch and also as a dwarf seer.

Yes, they are most likely the one and the same. I believe the wiki list them as the same. Which goes to my believe that the Targaryens misinterpreted her Dreams as meaning Aerys II and Rhaelle, when in which she did not. Her "dreams" are not that straightforward, and they seem quite vague in description of who and what is going to happen. It isn't until after something has happened that it becomes clear, maybe even to her.

[Melifeather]

The reason I insert astrology is because each Age has it's sun-god, but the story remains remarkably the same with virgin births, visiting kings, child protege's, sacrificing, death, and rebirth. Even the Azor Ahai and Last Hero stories can be viewed in the same light. They could each be heroes from different Ages.

[Melifeather]

Oh, R'hllorism is also heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism , I have come to learn on these forums. I mentioned Dazhbog before, a solar deity from Slavic mythology - he's a wolf that limps when the sun "dies" until it is "born" again around Christmas time. Makes me think of a limping Ned in AGoT...

Ahura Mazda does sound somewhat similar to Azor Ahai.

[Black Crow]

Yes, they are most likely the one and the same. I believe the wiki list them as the same. Which goes to my believe that the Targaryens misinterpreted her Dreams as meaning Aerys II and Rhaelle, when in which she did not. Her "dreams" are not that straightforward, and they seem quite vague in description of who and what is going to happen. It isn't until after something has happened that it becomes clear, maybe even to her.

Indeed; and very largely a matter of wishful thinking - scuppered by the timing being wrong.

[Melifeather]

Yes, they are most likely the one and the same. I believe the wiki list them as the same. Which goes to my believe that the Targaryens misinterpreted her Dreams as meaning Aerys II and Rhaelle, when in which she did not. Her "dreams" are not that straightforward, and they seem quite vague in description of who and what is going to happen. It isn't until after something has happened that it becomes clear, maybe even to her.

We know from what she herself says, that she was at Summerhall. She was probably supposed to be sacrificed like Mirri was, and either she escaped or something went awry, but in any case it was bad. Do you suppose Aegon sacrificed Jenny of Oldstones?

[Lummel]

Feather Crystal you might like The Golden Bough which I've mentioned before as a possible source for GRRM. The basic idea was that resurrection myths all stem back to the most basic miracle - the growth of crops in the spring, symbolised by sacrificial gods.

[Black Crow]

Ahura Mazda does sound somewhat similar to Azor Ahai.

That too, but whatever way you look at it the name is an eastern one; Ahai is after all Asshai with two letters missing

[Melifeather]

That too, but whatever way you look at it the name is an eastern one; Ahai is after all Asshai with two letters missing

If you repeat "Ahura Mazda" to yourself a few times, you can hear the inspiration for both Asshai and Azor Ahai. Perhaps Ahura Mazda was GRRM's inspiration for the names?

[Black Crow]

Just the usual notice; I'll be launching Heresy 29 in about an hour - and yes, I agree with Lummel, The Golden Bough is essential reading. A lot if it is challenged these days, but it does provide a coherent corpus which I've sure has influenced GRRM's work.

[Little Wing]

Feather Crystal you might like The Golden Bough which I've mentioned before as a possible source for GRRM. The basic idea was that resurrection myths all stem back to the most basic miracle - the growth of crops in the spring, symbolised by sacrificial gods.

Corn! King! Corn! (Keep trying to finish The Golden Bough, but get stuck each time...)

Oh, and the Last Hero had his 12 "apostles" ... I like him much more than Azor Ahai... I think it's because he had a dog with him :wub:

Also, the name Azor is, at least how I see it in my mother tongue, an anagram of the word zora which means dawn.