Heresy 35

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 35, the Christmas edition of what has turned into the most dynamic thread on the board.

Heresy is all about challenging orthodoxy, as we try to figure out what’s really going on not in the Game of Thrones but the over-arching Game of Ice and Fire. At a basic level we challenge the all too easy orthodoxy that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest are will give Bran the knowledge how to defeat the Others and that he will pass this knowledge on to Jon, who is Azor Ahai, and will save Westeros astride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his rightful place alongside her on the Iron Throne.

Instead we look at who or what the Others really are and why some of them at least are Craster’s sons, noting both GRRM’s reference to them looking like the Sidhe made of ice and to the way the very few anyone has ever seen, either now or historically, behave not as an invading army but like the Wild Hunt of legend.

Conversely its hard to avoid the fact that the Children are not just of the Forest, but of the Darkness as well, that darkness feared and hated by Melisandre and the followers of the Lord of Light. Certainly whatever the real motives of the Children, it can cheerfully be assumed that they are no friends to the Red pyromaniacs.

We also look at the Wall itself and of late have come to a certain consensus that it is not a defensive structure at all but marks the magical boundary between the realms of Ice (or Faerie), and Men and given the curious silence in the histories as to when and how it was built, (including GRRM’s dismissal of the question), many of us have come to think that it was not built after the Long Night to prevent the return of the Others but is much, much older.

We also dispute, furiously amongst ourselves, the timelines and have recently noted with interest Mels statement that the Azor Ahai prophecy goes back just (!) 5,000 years and is contemporary with the rise of the Valyrian Empire rather than with the Long Night..

Inevitably then this means looking at the Starks, the Wall and beyond, and drawing not just on the books themselves but on the real world mythologies, chiefly Celtic but Norse as well, which firmly underpin Martin’s version of the Faerie realms, leading us through the Mabinogion, the Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn and above all the Morrigan.

As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot, most recently on the Black Gate and its significance as a portal between the realms, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

In the meantime, as its Christmas, here’s the link to Heresy Six and the complete Old Nan’s Tales:

Heresy six,

Merry Christmas

[alienarea]

Merry Christmas

[Little Wing]

We are the watchers on the Wall. :smug:

Merry Christmas!

[Tyryan Lannister]

Welcome to Heresy 35, the Christmas edition of what has turned into the most dynamic thread on the board.

Have we passed RLJ yet?

Belated Merry Festivus! :D

And Happy Saturnalia!

And I guess Merry Christmas...

[Mace Cooterian]

From the Land of Lincoln (Chicago, IL)...wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas and that the first present you open tomorrow will be The Winds of Winter.....hardback of course..... :wideeyed:

[Toccs]

Maybe the Andals were chopping down those trees because they were decorating them for their version of Christmas . . which I guess would be called Hugormas.

Merry Christmas from the Land Down Under.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Maybe the Andals were chopping down those trees because they were decorating them for their version of Christmas . . which I guess would be called Hugormas.

Merry Christmas from the Land Down Under.

Jolly ole Septon Tormund storms down the chimney, presents in tow, shouting "har, har, har"

[Black Wolf Smith]

Have we passed RLJ yet?

I believe that will be next year ( and by year, I mean in little over a week) they are on page 17 of V 36.

I have been gone 5 days, and ya'll did a whole nother thread, dam that going to be a bitch to catch up. At least I am not still freezing my ass off in 1 degree F weather. (what is that -17 C?)

Merry Chrismas, to all and to all a good night.

[redriver]

Nollaig Shona Diabh.

I guess you can work out what that Gaelic means!!

Just to list a few of the ideas I have bee bashing around in various threads,including this,that may fuel or link into Heresy discussions.

Winterfell seems to be historically a back up/overseer of the Wall and the Watch.

The crypts seem a likely repository of important parts this lore,and it's most likely to be found at the deeper and more ancient levels.Someone needs to go down there.Jon seems the most likely candidate.

Due to it's volcanic nature,Winterfell may have a repository of obsidian.

The original Night's King may be warded down there.

The current Winter seems to be emanating from Winterfell,and may be linked to the absence of any living Stark in Winterfell,and the presence of intruders.This in turn may be linked to an ancient clause in the Pact which insists there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Jon seems to be destined to be ensorcelled or taken by the Others.But bottom line,he gets close the them and may provide insight into what they are about.

One of the reasons Mance is in Winterfell,aside from rescuing Arya and buggering up the Boltons is to investigate the Crypts and to reinstate a Stark in WF(Jon).

The Liddle could be present in WF as a spearwife and may be the Hooded Man.He may be taking his orders from Bloodraven.(controversial).

Mel may be pregnant with a shadow baby by Mance.(Not favoured by certain female posters!)

And the real crackpot,that the Others have come south of the Wall and were the orchestrators of Jon's stabbing.

I'm sure I'll come up with some equally daft ideas soon,but these are all we have to go on at the moment!

[Black Crow]

There's certainly something down in the crypts, but I'd reckon it to be more in the nature of another portal to Faerie, that only a Son of Winterfell - or son of Bael - may open, rather than some mouldy parchment saying Jon is the son of Rhaegar and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. If there is "something" else it may be connected with the King of Winter and a tangible marker that there is a Stark in Winterfell and that the Pact of Winter still holds.

[Little Wing]

There's certainly something down in the crypts, but I'd reckon it to be more in the nature of another portal to Faerie, that only a Son of Winterfell - or son of Bael - may open, rather than some mouldy parchment saying Jon is the son of Rhaegar and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. If there is "something" else it may be connected with the King of Winter and a tangible marker that there is a Stark in Winterfell and that the Pact of Winter still holds.

A sword in stone? ;)

[Tyryan Lannister]

I believe that will be next year ( and by year, I mean in little over a week) they are on page 17 of V 36.

I have been gone 5 days, and ya'll did a whole nother thread, dam that going to be a bitch to catch up. At least I am not still freezing my ass off in 1 degree F weather. (what is that -17 C?)

Merry Chrismas, to all and to all a good night.

You're in for an interesting read towards the end once we get talking about the realm of men vs the realm of faerie and how they match up... from what I can tell so far only Black Crow has been able to really grasp what I've been going for

[Free Northman]

Let me just drop in to once again state that I totally reject the Heresy flights of fancy also known as "theories".

As you were Heretics. See you again when Heresy 50 is launched.

Free Northman departs back to the 8000 year old North, ruled by the heroes of the story - House Stark.

[Little Wing]

You're in for an interesting read towards the end once we get talking about the realm of men vs the realm of faerie and how they match up... from what I can tell so far only Black Crow has been able to really grasp what I've been going for

I think the rest of us got you too, Tyryan... two realms occupying the same space, one plain as day, the other hidden for human eyes. Don't know why you think we didn't "get it" :laugh:

[alienarea]

I think the rest of us got you too, Tyryan... two realms occupying the same space, one plain as day, the other hidden for human eyes. Don't know why you think we didn't "get it" :laugh:

Mayhaps because you didn't get my "the Morrigan is male and appeared as Benjen / Mance / Bloodraven" concept either :laugh:

[Little Wing]

Mayhaps because you didn't get my "the Morrigan is male and appeared as Benjen / Mance / Bloodraven" concept either :laugh:

Um, I replied that we already talked about male counterparts before, but what-eva :laugh:

[addicted to snow]

The crypts seem a likely repository of important parts this lore,and it's most likely to be found at the deeper and more ancient levels.Someone needs to go down there.Jon seems the most likely candidate.

Jon seems to be destined to be ensorcelled or taken by the Others.But bottom line,he gets close the them and may provide insight into what they are about.

One of the reasons Mance is in Winterfell,aside from rescuing Arya and buggering up the Boltons is to investigate the Crypts and to reinstate a Stark in WF(Jon).

Mel may be pregnant with a shadow baby by Mance.(Not favoured by certain female posters!)

I think Hodor is the only living person that we know who has ever been dow to the lower levels of Winterfell's Crypts... The Chapter when Ned & Robert go down into the Crypts in AGoT has some powerful imagery regarding the crypts... It says something like "a cold wind as if from deep within the earth"... I think that The Crypts of Winterfell are connected to a cave network that extends beneath the wall, and into the where Jon & Yegrett got it on!!! I think that Others use this passage to bypass the wall, and without a Stark in Winterfell, whoever the inhabitants are will be screwed.

--

I agree that Jon will provide valuable insight on the Others (who I have a feeling are Dead Starks)... I base this theory on one line in AGoT; "& Ned dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell". My first thought was that this quote only means that Ned wants to go home & he longs for Winterfell. However, that would be like Ned thinking; "& Ned dreamed of Winterfell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell".

Jon is headed north (in my opinion) by the time that he gets back to Winterfell it will be full of dead Starks (others). Jon, using Longclaw will kill Other-Rob. Then Bran will will stop Jon by grabbing him with a limb of the Heart tree in the God's Wood. This 'theory' stems from a couple of Jon's dreams & Ned's thoughts mentioned above.

--

I'm not sure what Mance is up to, but I'm willing to bet that he is successful. I am not willing to bet, however that Mance's intentions are that pure... Mance is entirely too bad ass to be 'just another good guy'. You can't have the super hero who saves Westeros AND Mance, because Mance is just too fucking cool & writers do not work that way (that is an assumption). Therefore: Mance is NOT a good guy...

--

I have never thought about Mance & Melk having a shadow-baby, but you are probably correct - based on some of their conversations. I seem to remeber Mance talking about Mel's kiss. Now the Question is: who is this shadow-baby going to kill? Is Mel having doubts about Stannis???

--

Thanks very much for the interesting topics to ponder/discuss... Although no one ever talks about what I want to. Probably because I'm a little more advanced that y'all are, no big deal... HaHa...

[Black Crow]

Been off-line most of the day due to this Holiday business, which as is traditional on this side of the pond finishes up with the Dr Who Christmas Special. An interesting one this year which totally cracked me up; the enemy was freezing cold and moved as a cloud of ice crystals before manifesting itself first as rather sinister snowmen but then later as creatures of ice. All the time dire warnings were uttered about Winter is Coming and threats that if the ice wasn't stopped the planet would be gripped by a perpetual Winter. The day was of course saved, a little mysteriously, by salt tears and then to cap it all, the minor cliffhanger at the end was followed by a trailer for the fortcoming series - which features Ser Davos Seaworth (not literally of course, but the actor and wearing a nautical uniform)

Scary eh?

[Black Crow]

Returning to business, there is of course a contradiction inherent in the crypts in that while Winterfell above ground is famously warmed by hot springs, Winterfell below, ie; the crypts, are cold and its reckoned the forbidden lower levels are colder still; which again, I'd argue points to a connection to Winter and more particularly the realm of Faerie beyond the Wall. I'm not entirely convinced that there's a cave/tunnel stretching all the way from Winterfell to beyond the Wall, because that would be a very long way indeed, but I do think that the castle of Winterfell is built on a Sidhe Hill, hence Winterfell/hill, and that there may be a portal, similar to the Black Gate. A door between the realms of men and the realms of faerie.

[Toccs]

We also dispute, furiously amongst ourselves, the timelines and have recently noted with interest Mels statement that the Azor Ahai prophecy goes back just (!) 5,000 years and is contemporary with the rise of the Valyrian Empire rather than with the Long Night..

This caught my attention in the OP and got me to thinking about the timelines. We know that Westerosi history is out of whack largely due to the cross over from First Men carving runes on rocks to the Andals and their wririting. Just like in the real world, this has caused much of the history to get lost in translation and due to author bias.

However Essosi history has no such divide. The Valyrian, Ghiscari and Qarth civilizations have been in pretty much continous existance this entire time and as such their histories I feel are a lot more reliable. I think that we shoud be looking to try and match up what we can from the murky depths of Westerosi history with things we know from the much clearer Essosi histories.

This has me thinking that the rise of Valyria 5000 years ago could infact be contemporary with the Long Night and that it was a time much like the present situation when the magical powers were on the rise.