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Prince Lewyn's Paramour


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#1 Full-Faced Braavosi

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

As far I could find, there hasn't been a good discussion of Prince Lewyn's paramour. It is of questionable importance and is only mentioned twice throughout the series (as Prince Lewyn is mentioned only a precious few times), but it is something I am curious about and think could possibly tie into some of the other mysteries and theories.
(It's possible I'm missing information from outside the 5 series books)

Here's everything we know about Lewyn:
-He was the younger brother of the Princess of Dorne (Prince Doran's mother).
-He served in the kingsguard to Aerys the Mad.
-King Aerys used his niece, Princess Elia Martell, as a hostage to ensure his loyalty (called into question perhaps by whisperings from Varys about Rhaegar's supposed plot to seize the throne).
-He fought and died at the Trident (283 AL) during Robert's Rebellion, mortally wounded before being killed by Ser Lyn Corbray.
-Jon Arryn returned his bones to Sunspear while putting down any notion of a second Dornish rebellion.

Paramour
-According to both Arianne and Ser Barristan, he kept a paramour.
-Arianne says his paramour was a "rare beauty in her youth."
-Arianne implies that his paramour is still alive (possibly indicating that Arianne knows who she is).
-Ser Barristan says that Lewyn shared this knowledge with him, but it is clearly not widely known as Ser Arys Oakheart is somewhat shocked.


“Yes,” she said, “that fine white cloak. You forget, my great-uncle wore the same cloak. He died when I was little, yet I still remember him. He was as tall as a tower and used to tickle me until I could not breathe for laughing.”

“I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn,” Ser Arys said, “but all agree that he was a great knight.”

“A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say.”

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne’s treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn’s page.



“… paramour,” Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen’s honor. “That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?” He did not wait for a reply. “Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that.”



Speculations:
-We do not know his age, but his nephew Prince Doran is currently about 52 (b. 248 AL) and would've been 35 during the Battle of the Trident, so it likely Lewyn is somewhere between 35 and 55 at his death (somewhere in the middle or older, I'd imagine).
-It is never explicitly stated, there is a decent chance that he was at the Tourney of Harrenhal as King Aerys, Prince Rhaegar, and Princess Elia Martell were there (I don't believe it's stated whether Queen Rhaella or Viserys were there or if they had KG guarding them wherever they were).

Edited by Full-Faced Braavosi, 20 January 2013 - 08:46 PM.


#2 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 08:57 PM

I don't know many older Ladies who could have been Lewyn's paramour. If she's still alive, the number of candidates shrinks even further. Anyone has any idea who this could have been? Of the Dornish, only Lady Delonne Allyrion might fit, age-wise. Or was his paramour someone from King's Landing?

#3 Full-Faced Braavosi

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:27 PM

I'm afraid I too am not that knowledgeable about unclaimed older ladies alive in the world. That being said, it's only inferred that she's still alive (although how many unclaimed women do we know of that are dead?).

Also, there's no telling exactly what "old" means to Arianne as a 23 year old. It could mean Queen of Thorns old (like 80?) or like 40.

#4 Mladen

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:12 PM

Prince Lewyn was in Harrenhall, all the knights of the Kingsguard were there for Jaime`s becoming kingsguard

#5 Djinn

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:18 PM

Anya Wainwood or Genna Lannister.

#6 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

I'm afraid I too am not that knowledgeable about unclaimed older ladies alive in the world. That being said, it's only inferred that she's still alive (although how many unclaimed women do we know of that are dead?).

Also, there's no telling exactly what "old" means to Arianne as a 23 year old. It could mean Queen of Thorns old (like 80?) or like 40.


Believe it or not, the Queen of Thorns, though described as "a very old woman", is probably in her late 60s. She describes herself as older than Hoster Tully (b.235) but in a way that makes her seem like they are of the same generation. She was a great beauty in her youth and there was talk of marrying her to a Targaryen, but she "put a stop to that." It is never specified when exactly her husband Luthor Tyrell rode off that cliff but it was certainly well before the 280s, when her son "Lord" Mace took part in the Battle of Ashford and Seige of Storm's End.
Lewyn Martell (Doran's uncle) was probably born between 225-235 AL (Doran was born 248 AL) and died in 283 at the Battle of the Trident.
All of which means... It could have been the Queen of Thorns! She would have been a beautiful widow, highborn enough for Prince Lewyn and mature and unconventional enough to not care about reputation etc.
Hey, not sure I believe it... just saying the dates fit. And if it's not her, it's probably someone in her generation.

#7 Full-Faced Braavosi

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:53 PM

Prince Lewyn was in Harrenhall, all the knights of the Kingsguard were there for Jaime`s becoming kingsguard


Nice - I just found the part in ASOS where it says that.

Not sure how much it helps or not that he was there, but we have so little to go on.

Anya Wainwood or Genna Lannister.


Could be. Although Genna Lannister is said to have been "shapely" when she was young (not sure if they just meant buxom or all together round, I'm thinking the latter), so unless Arianne meant it in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek manner, I'd think rare indicates more of a striking beauty.

Believe it or not, the Queen of Thorns, though described as "a very old woman", is probably in her late 60s. She describes herself as older than Hoster Tully (b.235) but in a way that makes her seem like they are of the same generation. She was a great beauty in her youth and there was talk of marrying her to a Targaryen, but she "put a stop to that." It is never specified when exactly her husband Luthor Tyrell rode off that cliff but it was certainly well before the 280s, when her son "Lord" Mace took part in the Battle of Ashford and Seige of Storm's End.
Lewyn Martell (Doran's uncle) was probably born between 225-235 AL (Doran was born 248 AL) and died in 283 at the Battle of the Trident.
All of which means... It could have been the Queen of Thorns! She would have been a beautiful widow, highborn enough for Prince Lewyn and mature and unconventional enough to not care about reputation etc.
Hey, not sure I believe it... just saying the dates fit. And if it's not her, it's probably someone in her generation.


Well that would be weird if I just stumbled upon it!

For some reason I have the picture of it being someone without known legitimate descendants, but that's purely my reaction and not evidenced at all.

#8 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:37 AM

She was probably a bastard. Most paramours seem to be. Let's start looking for 60-years old female Sands or Waters, give or take.

#9 Apple Martini

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

You know, I had never given much thought to Lewyn's paramour, but framed this way, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being someone of note, given that the trouble was taken to mention her continued existence at all (i.e. why not leave out the paramour thing entirely, or say she was dead?).

I will keep my eyes peeled for this. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

#10 Sand Snake No. 9

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:42 AM

You know, I had never given much thought to Lewyn's paramour, but framed this way, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being someone of note, given that the trouble was taken to mention her continued existence at all (i.e. why not leave out the paramour thing entirely, or say she was dead?).

I will keep my eyes peeled for this. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />


I'm about to say the opposite, lol. GRRM hasn't identified every woman in Westeros, or even every highborn woman of the preceding generations (we don't even know the name of Ned's mother), so Prince Lewyn's paramour could be among the nameless masses. I think a resident of King's Landing makes the most sense because the King's Guard spends most of its time there. Maintaining a long-distance relationship had to be a whole lot harder in the days before the combustion engine and the smart phone.

Anyway, imo, she's only there to make a point: King's Guard members screw around. (Come to think of it, why didn't Barristan notice Jaime's extra-curricular activities?)

I will be appropriately contrite if it turns out that she's someone and somehow really important.

#11 Apple Martini

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:44 AM

I'm about to say the opposite, lol. GRRM hasn't identified every woman in Westeros, or even every highborn woman of the preceding generations (we don't even know the name of Ned's mother), so Prince Lewyn's paramour could be among the nameless masses. I think a resident of King's Landing makes the most sense because the King's Guard spends most of its time there. Maintaining a long-distance relationship had to be a whole lot harder in the days before the combustion engine and the smart phone.

Anyway, imo, she's only there to make a point: King's Guard members screw around. (Come to think of it, why didn't Barristan notice Jaime's extra-curricular activities?)

I will be appropriately contrite if it turns out that she's someone and somehow really important.


I don't think she'll be "important" important, just that it'd be kind of an easter egg sort of thing if we ever figure out who she was. I don't anticipate it being a major plot point or anything. Just for, you know, funsies.

#12 Sand Snake No. 9

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:45 AM

I don't think she'll be "important" important, just that it'd be kind of an easter egg sort of thing if we ever figure out who she was. I don't anticipate it being a major plot point or anything. Just for, you know, funsies.


Funsies are good.

#13 protar

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:05 AM

Could she perhaps be Septa Lemore? It's a thought I've had for a while. We don't know exactly how old she is, but I got the impression she was late 30's/early 40's which could be considered "old" by Arianne's standards and would put her in twenties during Robert's Rebellion.

#14 AdrianAegon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:23 AM

Could she perhaps be Septa Lemore? It's a thought I've had for a while. We don't know exactly how old she is, but I got the impression she was late 30's/early 40's which could be considered "old" by Arianne's standards and would put her in twenties during Robert's Rebellion.


Lemore is Ashara! It is known!

#15 protar

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:24 AM

Lemore is Ashara! It is known!


Does no one stay dead in this series anymore?!?! /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#16 Mladen

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:40 AM

Does no one stay dead in this series anymore?!?! /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


Only those who lose their heads

As for the paramour, most likely it would be someone from Elia`s entourage when she came to KL.

#17 Narea

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:04 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the Daynes' ladies (though not Ashara). Every Dayne mentioned so far is described as very attractive and their Valyrian coloring would classify them as "rare"... Also, didn't Lewyn join the KG only after Doran was born ? He could have been in prior relationship that he simply continued secretively, which would imply that his paramour was from Dorne as well.

#18 MotherAnduin

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:23 AM

It cannot be Olenna because she called Ellaria something along the lines of the whore of the snake. Plus, she is racist and absolutely hates the Dornish. But then it could be that prince Martell broke her heart and she is just acting out.

#19 Ragnorak

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:45 AM

Could this paramour be Doran's "friend" at KL? I always leaned toward Lady Merryweather on that one but that's the only plot tie I can think of that would make her matter. No ideas on candidates though.

#20 protar

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:14 AM

Could this paramour be Doran's "friend" at KL? I always leaned toward Lady Merryweather on that one but that's the only plot tie I can think of that would make her matter. No ideas on candidates though.


Taena's far too young. She's only in her late twenties I think.