Convenant the Unbeliever, worth it?

[peterbound]

One of my favorite least favorite authors - that is, I have some very specific complaints and like talking about them. The two main ones have already been mentioned -

I don't find Donaldson to be a subtle writer with respect for his readers' intelligence. I'm sure some smart people don't mind having everything spelled out for them OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I much prefer books where the author relies on the reader to remember things from the past, piece some things together, and even have to think a little. The problem isn't that Covenant is bitter, depressive, sometimes nasty and one time terrible, but that Donaldson keeps reminding us of WHY, even though he told us very very clearly in the first chapter.

Second, what the OP has observed so far:

Reverent was a good word. I find almost all the secondary characters intolerable, and while I don't know that Donaldson wanted to make them likeable exactly, I do think he wanted the reader to feel an attraction to or connection with the land, and part of that would be through feeling the same respect for it that its inhabitants felt. My attitude of - I wish Lord Foul would just blow this awful place up already probably didn't help.

ETA: With unlikeable characters/characters you're meant to hate - I find that having at least one of two things helps the story - the character is extremely interesting despite being loathsome, or the plot is such that finding out what the character will do next is suspenseful. The possibility of finding Covenant's character interesting was ruined by the author's aforementioned lack of subtlety, and I found the plot totally contrived.

Dammit, I was hoping to get on here before Ep posted.

[Gigei]

My $0.02: The Covenant series is a not-very-enjoyable series that's worth reading once. Very few books go where it does and it is not an experience you can have in many other places. But the actual story is generic and uninteresting and the writing is mediocre at best. This is a series you read for the ideas.

Very good summation. IMO, the series is well worth reading if you are already familiar with the fantasy genre. You can always read yet another standard "hidden heir who becomes king" whenever you want to because the whole fantasy genre is full of those kinds of books but you can't easily find another Covenant-like book.

The idea behind it, I think is very simple in that it's the opposite of what we get most of the time - fantasy books are a lot of "hero finds a magical world" type of stories where, of course, our favorite kick-ass, heroic type of character starts learning magic/taking over the army/sparks a popular revolution/etc. then becomes king of the world/archmage/etc. I am reading of those type of books right now and I am loving it. :)

I value the Covenant books because they give me a different type of experience when I read it.

Also, Mhoram and Bannor totally kick-ass. Those are not spoilers because that is clearly the type of characters they are and you can tell when they are first mentioned.

Massive huge spoilers for the ending alert:

My thoughts:

As for raping Lena, the series happens in a metaphysical unreal world (depending on how you look at it). Lena isn't a "real" person. That was Covenant raping himself in a dream. Actually, the Land, Lord Foul and the Creator can be seen as being Covenant himself - when Covenant tries to fight Foul he can't even do it because he is Foul. This is one of the major themes of the books.

I think people when they read the first few pages have been conditioned into always thinking "oh pfft the hero (and we, the readers) are going to realize the Land is real" just like in every other fantasy book. But in the Covenant series, that never happens. It's all a dream.

[peterbound]

Very good summation. IMO, the series is well worth reading if you are already familiar with the fantasy genre. You can always read yet another standard "hidden heir who becomes king" whenever you want to because the whole fantasy genre is full of those kinds of books but you can't easily find another Covenant-like book.

The idea behind it, I think is very simple in that it's the opposite of what we get most of the time - fantasy books are a lot of "hero finds a magical world" type of stories where, of course, our favorite kick-ass, heroic type of character starts learning magic/taking over the army/sparks a popular revolution/etc. then becomes king of the world/archmage/etc. I am reading of those type of books right now and I am loving it. :)

I value the Covenant books because they give me a different type of experience when I read it.

Also, Mhoram and Bannor totally kick-ass. Those are not spoilers because that is clearly the type of characters they are and you can tell when they are first mentioned.

Massive huge spoilers for the ending alert:

My thoughts:

As for raping Lena, the series happens in a metaphysical unreal world (depending on how you look at it). Lena isn't a "real" person. That was Covenant raping himself in a dream. Actually, the Land, Lord Foul and the Creator can be seen as being Covenant himself - when Covenant tries to fight Foul he can't even do it because he is Foul. This is one of the major themes of the books.

I think people when they read the first few pages have been conditioned into always thinking "oh pfft the hero (and we, the readers) are going to realize the Land is real" just like in every other fantasy book. But in the Covenant series, that never happens. It's all a dream.

uh

Maybe you should read the rest of the books. Pretty sure by the end of even the first trilogy, the Land is determined to be real. Hell, Troy being in the Ilearth War kinda convinced me the Land was not, as you put it, 'a dream'

[Darth Richard]

As peterbounds alt personalty I demand everyone read these books.

Whoops, sorry.

I fucking demand you all fucking read this shit right the fuck away, fuckers!

Also, I should read these eventually myself.

[Jazzer32]

So I have a question to all of you, who now their fantasy. Should I keep on reading Lord Foul's Bane?

So, does it get better? Am I giving up on this book to soon? Or should I just resign myself to the fact that this is not a book for me and find something else to read?

NO

NO

NO

YES

This is THE WORST BOOK I read in my life (all 3 of the series). Compared to this book even Ana Karenina is interesting and action-packed.

[Gigei]

uh

Maybe you should read the rest of the books. Pretty sure by the end of even the first trilogy, the Land is determined to be real. Hell, Troy being in the Ilearth War kinda convinced me the Land was not, as you put it, 'a dream'

Lol, read the actual books yourself. You missed a whole lot if you missed the point of what I said. I have read up to Fatal Revenant. The particular spoiler that I mentioned is up to the end of the second chronicles, White Gold Wielder. Maybe you haven't read that far yet.

Hile Troy isn't real either. :P You do know he is dead, right? How is a ghost "real"?

So you think just because some guy in the dream says he is real (though actually if you view it with a critical eye what he really says is that he died in a fire lol) then he is real? That's not even logical. We get Mhoram's POV, too, and IMO, that is a hell of a lot more real than Troy but since all this happens in the dream itself then it can't prove that its real.

Donaldson leaves the whole thing open enough for people to make up their own minds about it. I guess its valid enough to view the Land as a real place (say, a place on a different planet than Earth) but IMO, this totally spoils the whole point of having the series at all. If you want to read just the same old "guy finds magic land" then you might as well not bother with all the Unbeliever stuff.

[Gormenghast]

I've only read the first book and I liked it quite a bit, but I think it can be read on two completely different levels.

In other words, if you approach it as a fantasy adventure then it's going to suck. If you instead take it as a very personal and introspective journey, then it could be quite interesting. The book plays with these two levels as The Matrix plays between the simulated world, and the "real" one. Blue and red pills.

If you're stuck in the first course then the book is going to be terrible. (in fact I'd dare say that it shares some "postmodern" tricks with Malazan)

[Gigei]

Indeed. On the adventure level it does have some rather nice stuff like giants, Bloodguard, magic, a really awesome Big Bad, sandworm/Sandgorgon (that part was super cool), etc. but so many other novels have the same old stuff that the Covenant books are (in my humble opinion) much better if you view it on a whole other level - the spoiler stuff I mentioned.

But I don't doubt that it can be read as a "guy in magic world" story. I just prefer the other explanation.

[Isalie]

I only read the first one, so at least you are not alone in not liking it :)

Edit: A good idea is good and all, but it matters little to me if the story around it is not good as well.

[Spaßvogel]

I have read them all. The more recent cycle was a leap in terms of characterization IMO. New characters really freshened things up. I think the bleakness can drag a little bit, but I'm definitely looking forward to the final volume.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Lol, read the actual books yourself. You missed a whole lot if you missed the point of what I said. I have read up to Fatal Revenant. The particular spoiler that I mentioned is up to the end of the second chronicles, White Gold Wielder. Maybe you haven't read that far yet.

Hile Troy isn't real either. :P You do know he is dead, right? How is a ghost "real"?

So you think just because some guy in the dream says he is real (though actually if you view it with a critical eye what he really says is that he died in a fire lol) then he is real? That's not even logical. We get Mhoram's POV, too, and IMO, that is a hell of a lot more real than Troy but since all this happens in the dream itself then it can't prove that its real.

Donaldson leaves the whole thing open enough for people to make up their own minds about it. I guess its valid enough to view the Land as a real place (say, a place on a different planet than Earth) but IMO, this totally spoils the whole point of having the series at all. If you want to read just the same old "guy finds magic land" then you might as well not bother with all the Unbeliever stuff.

I think Second Chronicles decide it unambiguously. We know Linden Avery is real and if she just shares Covenant's dream

Spoiler

how come Covenant's ring is on her finger at the ending?

[MinDonner]

I think Second Chronicles decide it unambiguously. We know Linden Avery is real and if she just shares Covenant's dream

Spoiler

how come Covenant's ring is on her finger at the ending?

Maybe she nicked it off his corpse?

The Land and Covenant seem so closely tied together that I find it hard to believe it has an existence without him. Even if not a "dream", (and I say this having only read one of the final trilogy), maybe just some kind of private psychic dimension shaped by his own mind, rather than a discrete alternate world accessible to anyone.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Maybe she nicked it off his corpse?

.

Very unlikely, considering we are in her POV the whole time.

maybe just some kind of private psychic dimension shaped by his own mind, rather than a discrete alternate world accessible to anyone.

I can accept "accessible to Covenant and those close to him", considering the Third Chronicles.

[morningxstar]

Didn't know about this: http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/445068/The-Chronicles-of-Thomas-Covenant/overview

[Guy Kilmore]

I enjoyed it. I agree with Gormenghast's Matrix analogy. If you are expecting an adventure and that is what you are looking for it sucks. This is one of the first set of books that I can "get" why the Evil Overlord wants to destroy everything. And, I was able to "get" why he shouldn't be able to.

[Gormenghast]

The point for me is that the plot isn't driven by a straight story, but by how the interplay between the two levels develop. So if one dismisses the postmodern frame of the story then the main core of the book is lost.

[peterbound]

Lol, read the actual books yourself. You missed a whole lot if you missed the point of what I said. I have read up to Fatal Revenant. The particular spoiler that I mentioned is up to the end of the second chronicles, White Gold Wielder. Maybe you haven't read that far yet.

Hile Troy isn't real either. :P You do know he is dead, right? How is a ghost "real"?

So you think just because some guy in the dream says he is real (though actually if you view it with a critical eye what he really says is that he died in a fire lol) then he is real? That's not even logical. We get Mhoram's POV, too, and IMO, that is a hell of a lot more real than Troy but since all this happens in the dream itself then it can't prove that its real.

Donaldson leaves the whole thing open enough for people to make up their own minds about it. I guess its valid enough to view the Land as a real place (say, a place on a different planet than Earth) but IMO, this totally spoils the whole point of having the series at all. If you want to read just the same old "guy finds magic land" then you might as well not bother with all the Unbeliever stuff.

Did you just LOL me? What are you, a fucking 12 year old?

also, fuck spoiler tags:

I'm a rabid TC fan, but not one that prescribes to the 'fake land' theory. I'm a firm believer in the idea that it is indeed a separate and distinct world. Hile Troy coming to the land (who also, died from the fall, not the fire LOL..PER SRD: And Troy�s eventual death in the Land does *not* mirror his death in the real world--if you assume, as I do (without being able to check the text), that he died in the fall rather than by fire), Mhoram's and linden's POV's, and TC surviving in the Land and becoming the Timewarden pretty much seal the deal for me.

All said, I love the books, silly unbeliever theory or not. I think they are written and play out in a way that is difficult to find in Fantasy. It's a great read, and I wish everyone would give it a go.

[Shryke]

I'd agree. They are certainly very unique and worth trying.

I just don't think that, for the most part, they are that good.

[Gigei]

I think Second Chronicles decide it unambiguously. We know Linden Avery is real and if she just shares Covenant's dream

Spoiler

how come Covenant's ring is on her finger at the ending?

We have her POV and it doesn't say how she got it. She probably took it in the real world while she was dreaming that she took it. People move and speak while they are unconcious, after all.

Maybe she nicked it off his corpse?

The Land and Covenant seem so closely tied together that I find it hard to believe it has an existence without him. Even if not a "dream", (and I say this having only read one of the final trilogy), maybe just some kind of private psychic dimension shaped by his own mind, rather than a discrete alternate world accessible to anyone.

"Dream" is Covenant's word for it so that's what I use. I don't mean he is just normally asleep and dreaming...it's more than that.

I enjoyed it. I agree with Gormenghast's Matrix analogy. If you are expecting an adventure and that is what you are looking for it sucks. This is one of the first set of books that I can "get" why the Evil Overlord wants to destroy everything. And, I was able to "get" why he shouldn't be able to.

Yes, I mean in a regular book you could just stab him with the magical thingamajig.

LOL, "fuck spoiler tags" is so mature.

[Gormenghast]

Fake Land theory isn't a way to interpret it. The trick is to keep both balls in the air. If for some reason you strictly believe in one or the other then it's where the book ends.

Basically this story works as long it exists in that ambivalence, and it's not revealed when you figure out one or the other. The revelation, or if you want its meaning, consists in the interplay between the two levels. If you settle for just one then it gets meaningless.

Both those levels remain true and equally real. If Donaldson decides to solve this point with the last book he'd kill its point and do something that breaks the rules (and not the opposite).