Targaryen madness, Rhaegar and Jon?

[Yeade]

Regarding Rhaegar, in the context of the ASOIAF universe, I don't think it's necessarily madness to heed prophecy. Magic undeniably exists, and foresight more often proves true than not, with certain lineages being especially blessed (or cursed) in this regard, including both the Targaryens and the Starks.

It's been theorized that Rhaegar inherited the Targaryen prophetic dreams, IIRC, the same ones that plagued Daeron and drove him to drink, that are in fact how the whole PTWP shtick originated. Given that family history suggests such dreams are precursors to actual events, warning of future dangers as great as perhaps the Doom of Valyria, Rhaegar would be wise to at least do a bit of research and try to interpret the symbolism of his visions.

Suppose Rhaegar dreamt of the next Long Night and saw that the PTWP must come of his bloodline (a son?) or the world would fall into darkness, etc. Dutiful as the man was, by most accounts, how could he ignore a premonition of this magnitude? That Rhaegar lost sight of the consequences of his actions in the present and misinterpreted the prophecies known to him just makes him like pretty much every other character who's ever dealt with such magics, though I suspect Rhaegar, with Maester Aemon's counsel, was able to piece together the gist of what's now happening at the Wall and glimpsed the return of dragons to Westeros.

Jon, too, has something of the gift. In ACOK, he sees Bran as a growing young weirwood long before his brother takes up with Bloodraven. There's also his Azor Ahai dream in ADWD and his recurring nightmares of the Winterfell crypts. It's impossible to tell, however, whether these are hints that Jon, like Bran and Rickon, has talent as a greenseer, his Targaryen heritage showing, or even Bloodraven mucking about in his head, possibly all three at once. The intermingling of the blood of the First Men and Valyria, with their associated magics, in Jon likely produces results unfathomable except by Bloodraven, anyways, who's of similar stock.

As I agree that Rhaegar and Jon share certain personality traits, most notably their melancholy and studiousness, can Jon's pragmatic approach to magic be used to gauge how his supposed father might have reacted? The difference being that Jon isn't yet aware that these abilities are relevant to his fight against the Others, a situation I suspect will change should he be contacted by Bran and/or Bloodraven while in a coma or warging in Ghost following his assassination.

[Guest]

Dany doesn't appear mad, so I'm hoping that Jon follows in the same vein. We can say that the Starks are level headed and don't appear to have any genetic madness, so maybe it will balance out.

[Lyse Stark]

Regarding Rhaegar, in the context of the ASOIAF universe, I don't think it's necessarily madness to heed prophecy. Magic undeniably exists, and foresight more often proves true than not, with certain lineages being especially blessed (or cursed) in this regard, including both the Targaryens and the Starks.

It's been theorized that Rhaegar inherited the Targaryen prophetic dreams, IIRC, the same ones that plagued Daeron and drove him to drink, that are in fact how the whole PTWP shtick originated. Given that family history suggests such dreams are precursors to actual events, warning of future dangers as great as perhaps the Doom of Valyria, Rhaegar would be wise to at least do a bit of research and try to interpret the symbolism of his visions.

Suppose Rhaegar dreamt of the next Long Night and saw that the PTWP must come of his bloodline (a son?) or the world would fall into darkness, etc. Dutiful as the man was, by most accounts, how could he ignore a premonition of this magnitude? That Rhaegar lost sight of the consequences of his actions in the present and misinterpreted the prophecies known to him just makes him like pretty much every other character who's ever dealt with such magics, though I suspect Rhaegar, with Maester Aemon's counsel, was able to piece together the gist of what's now happening at the Wall and glimpsed the return of dragons to Westeros.

Jon, too, has something of the gift. In ACOK, he sees Bran as a growing young weirwood long before his brother takes up with Bloodraven. There's also his Azor Ahai dream in ADWD and his recurring nightmares of the Winterfell crypts. It's impossible to tell, however, whether these are hints that Jon, like Bran and Rickon, has talent as a greenseer, his Targaryen heritage showing, or even Bloodraven mucking about in his head, possibly all three at once. The intermingling of the blood of the First Men and Valyria, with their associated magics, in Jon likely produces results unfathomable except by Bloodraven, anyways, who's of similar stock.

As I agree that Rhaegar and Jon share certain personality traits, most notably their melancholy and studiousness, can Jon's pragmatic approach to magic be used to gauge how his supposed father might have reacted? The difference being that Jon isn't yet aware that these abilities are relevant to his fight against the Others, a situation I suspect will change should he be contacted by Bran and/or Bloodraven while in a coma or warging in Ghost following his assassination.

If all both the Targaryen prophetic dreams and the greenseeing aspect are running on the same brainware(Jon's) the results would be ... Interesting. He wouldn't even understand what the prophecies are about as he wasn't raised in a Targaryen household, and the greenseeing aspect would also be confusing to him.

So !crackpot! Idea; Jon is gonna be a greenseer, but not the kind we usually see on the weirwood throne. I think there's another kind; these are usually more mobile, and move from place to place to plant new weirwoods for future green seers's use. But to do this he would still need to be wedded to the trees, but it would take a different form; this would include consuming a few weirwood seeds, and then being given a small bag of seeds to plant in particular location the old gods decides to be very important.

[Mad Monkey]

I don't think Rhaegar was mad. Sure, his decision to run off with Lyanna was foolish, but that doesn't mean he was actually mad. Though there are chances he would have gone mad later on had he lived.

As for Jon, I highly doubt it. He's shown no signs whatsoever.

But for Dany, we might have a problem there.

I feel like Targ madness is a self-fulfilling prophecy. When a Lannister or a Stark or a Baratheon or a Greyjoy does something foolish or irresponsible, no one tries to attribute it to genetic curses or tainted blood, but whenever a Targaryen does something dumb it becomes a manifestation of insanity. Is there any reason to assume that Viserys Arryn would have been happier with his fate than Viserys Targaryen, or reacted better solely because of a different last name?

Jon has made some missteps in his life but that doesn't mean that he is hopelessly insane. Eddard Stark screwed up dealing with Cersei in AGOT but that doesn't mean that he is a psychopath or that his blood is tainted or that the gods flipped a coin and decided that he was going to be stark raving mad.

[Mithras]

Many Targaryen features including madness are recessive traits. If both mother and the father have these traits, the chance of their babies having them is higher. Since Jon's mother is from a very distant gene pool compared his father, Targaryen madness showing in him is nearly impossible. Even Targaryen hair and eyecolor do not show up in him. And these more common Targaryen traits than their madness.

[C0bR]

I don't think Rhaegar was mad. Just a melancholic fool with a complete lack of common sense with his Targaryen-esque sense of entitlement complimenting to him thinking he has to save the world.

[TheLostStark]

I can think of two instances where Jon's "Targ Madness" might have seeped out. When he picked up Ser Allister by the throat and when he pummeled the guy he was dueling with in ASOS. He kinda saw red and next thing he knew he was being pulled of the guy.

[MotherAnduin]

Rhaegar was cuckoo. Jon, not so much.

[The Wolves]

Many people in Westeros seem mad

[Lyse Stark]

Many people in Westeros seem mad

Aerys II was certainly schizophrenic. Cersei is borderline paranoid. But I think Rhaegar had bipolar disorder, and Jon inherited the depressive aspects from Rhaegar.

[jordanmp16]

the madness gene usually only runs in targs born of incest, and even then it wasnt all of them, jon has stark blood in him.

[Nictarion]

We can say that the Starks are level headed and don't appear to have any genetic madness, so maybe it will balance out.

Brandon, Lyanna, and Arya aren't very level headed. Rickon probably won't be either, for that matter.

[IRON BANK]

I have not seen any forms of madness with in Jon snows story line. I do feel however after the stabbing Jon will be proactive when it comes to eliminating enemies and not so 2nd chance driven.

[Ted Chang]

I never got the impression from the text that Rhaegar was mad, or even a bit off kilter. The text told me that if Rhaegar had become king little or none of the fallout would have happened. Regardless of this, any notion that Jon is going to somehow go potty at a time when the storylines will need to be coming together towards the inevitable ending are, I think, unfounded and unlikely.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Superb idea I just had - the whole Others threat is only Jon's Targaryenesque delusion...

[Lord Ronin]

It is mentioned several times that not ALL Targs are mad...Egg for example...I think Jon is going to be a "cool " Targ

[Old-Growth]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you who have been so free with diagnosis herewithin of a fictional character about the which we know little, have any clinical training or experience?

[HannibalStark]

I would say Rhaegar was highly regarded at first then he screwed up big time, failing to live up to his potential. Rhaegar may have been a little mad, some evidence may point out to him being self obsessed with TPTWP prophecy. There's also a chance he could've gone mad later in his life. Aerys wasn't really mad at Rhaegar's age, and infact seemed like a swell guy. We'll never really know for sure.

If he is a Targaryen, I'd say Jon takes after Aegon III personality wise, who as far as we know, wasn't a mad Targaryen and actually a pretty good king. Who knows? He may change.

did Rhaegar screw up? I'm just saying, the only 'blight' on his record is the whole Lyanna thing...well what if Jon does have some part to play as the PtWP or some other role in stopping the Others from bringing a permanent winter/night to Westeros...what if Rhaegar being obsessed with fulfilling this prophecy, resulting in Lyanna, then Jon...and Jon has some other part to play, then was Rhaegar ever mad?

[jongtu]

Rhaegar was mad. He had the whole Kingsguard at his disposal excluding Jaime. Yet he tried to 1v1 Bobbert.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It is mentioned several times that not ALL Targs are mad...Egg for example...I think Jon is going to be a "cool " Targ

It's debatable if he stayed entirely sane in his later life. Neither forcing the marriage between Aerys and Rhaella nor the burning at Summerhall are exactly signs of a healthy mind.

Just out of curiosity, do any of you who have been so free with diagnosis herewithin of a fictional character about the which we know little, have any clinical training or experience?

No more than GRRM himself.