The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Fire Eater]

Perhaps there were goats in these mountains. The shadowcats must live on something.

The goat I can think of is Vargo Hoat who is in Harrenhal with Arya, and she takes on the alias of Cat later.

off in the darkness a shadowcat screamed in fury, its voice bouncing off the rocks so it seemed as though a dozen other cats were giving answer

This points to Arya taking on different identities, one becoming many, especially after the RW and she joins the FM.

Across the long lake, one of the mounds moved. He watched it more closely and saw that it was not dirt at all, but alive, a shaggy lumbering beast with a snake for a nose and tusks larger than those of the greatest boar that had ever lived. And the thing riding it was huge as well, and his shape was wrong, too thick in the leg and hips to be a man.

This brings to mind Long Lake where there was a battle between Raymund Redbeard and the Starks and the Drunken Giant, Harmond Umber. "Shaggy" is used to describe it bringing to mind Shaggydog, Rickon's wolf. What I'm thinking of needs spoiler tags since it has one reference from ASoS Jon chapter.

In the Battle of Long Lake, Raymun Redbeard was headed south away from the Wall, and met with the Stark force marching north towards them. Lord William Stark was slain and decapitated, and William's brother, Artos, slew Raymun Redbeard in battle. The wildling army is crushed when they are taken in the rear by Lord Harmond Umber, the Drunken Giant, and Redbeard and all his sons are killed, and his line extinguished. Raymund's brother, the Red Raven, was the first to flee the battle.

"The Magnar's a lord on Skagos," Noye said. "There were Skagossans at Eastwatch when I first came to the Wall, I remember talk of him."

This is foreshadowing when it is inverted with the wildling force coming south fighting on the Stark side, and the force coming from WF being the Boltons. The giants on their mammoths from Eatswatch-by-the-Sea could take the Boltons in the rear, led by Wun Wun who had taken a liking to wine according to Jon, along with Davos with the Skagosi supporting Rickon who landed at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea where the giants are staying.

Robb Stark, who had a red beard, was slain by Roose Bolton, and decapitated. Jon, Robb's brother (cousin actually), kills Roose in battle, and avenges Robb like Artos Stark. Ramsay, Roose's son, is also killed in battle by Jon, and House Bolton is extinguished.

Something also important occurs, Davos and Jon meet for the first time, and at a good start with Davos aiding Jon.

[Ragnorak]

P.S. I can only agree that from among the young leaders (Robb, Dany, Jon), Jon was privileged to have the most extensive opportunities to grow into his leadership, what with the lengthiest training, tons of great mentor figures, many chances to gain experience and confidence undertaking lower-level responsibilities before he found himself on top, lots and lots of agency...

...

Well, Jon got extra education during his NW training and squiring for Mormont, as well as many more different mentors, so he had advantage on Robb education-wise, IMHO. As a result, he was able to grow into responsibility more organically than Robb.

And, of course, preparation only takes one so far. We have seen a lot of idiotic lord(ling)s, who all had proper noble education, and some of them much more experienced to boot...

P.S.

So did Ygritte play a role in NW scout party being spotted and relentlessly followed or was it all Orell/Varamyr? Not sure what we are supposed to think, here. Was it Qhorin's plan or contingency plan all along to sacrifice all these elite scouts to make it possible for Jon to go undercover with Mance, gambling on an unlikely chance that Jon might be able to escape?

I think there's a rather deliberate purpose on Martin's part for setting Jon up with these mentors and other particulars of his path to leadership. I suspect the most likely candidate to contrast with Jon's leadership arc is actually Aegon-- though Dany/Jon and Dany/Aegon have some rich potential as well. We get this exposition from Varys on the idea of being trained from birth to lead:

Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

We're told Aegon has been shaped to rule but shown Jon being shaped. We see Aegon toss the Cyvasse pieces in a tantrum with Tyrion, we see JonCon reflect on how sheltered they have kept him when it is time to meet the GC, we see the immature desire he has to be part of the battle that was part of the naïve Robb/Jon/Bran early development or a thing only the death of companions at the hands of corsairs quieted in Quentyn. Varys claims it but we have these other leadership arcs to compare with Aegon's behavior and Jon is probably the closest to Varys and Illyrio's intent to shape Aegon. (Dany is unique in this power/belief dynamic with the belief of the slaves in Volantis but somewhat removed from the martial leadership parallel we see in Jon.) The speech to Kevan is a fairly complete recap of the major leadership themes we've seen throughout the series.

Varys claims that power is a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall. Power resides where men believe it resides and Varys has orchestrated a wonderful mummer's folly to set men up to believe in Aegon. In some ways Varys is the mastermind behind Aegon the Manchurian Candidate. The key difference based on Varys own philosophy is that someone like Jon has made men believe in Jon whereas Aegon is the beneficiary of a PR campaign. Belief in Jon and Dany as leaders was earned and solidified in Tyrion's "blood and steel" that keeps men true.

I think this ties into the whole "floppy ears" theme we see in Dany or the trappings of power notions repeated with the Lannisters. There's a spectrum of when the artificial projected illusion matters or is even more important than reality and when reality trumps the artifice. All in all Jon's experiences are the product of Martin's intent and have a purpose in portraying the author's worldview. Anything that is "unfair" is by design and has a purpose or a meaning.

The Varys speech is the last chapter written thus far so we're quite a way off from that and Jon hasn't yet taken up the leadership mantle. If I were to flag a leadership mentor moment in this chapter it would be the Halfhand's lesson about knowing your men. Ned gave Jon the same lesson but Qhorin's giving Jon the choice to deal with Ygritte strikes me as something beyond what Ned taught him. I think we can trace his later choices of Satin as a steward and Leathers as master-at-arms back to this experience here with the Halfhand. I would also flag this as worth looking back on as he is confronted by Marsh, Yarwyck, and the drunken septon and gives them similar room to make their own choices.

The agency observation is important and I think it came up earlier. The NW is theoretically about the most limiting career option in terms of agency, but we see Jon actually has more agency here (even before becoming LC) than any of his trueborn siblings do based on their circumstances.

@Fire Eater Very nice work on piecing together that foreshadowing

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Really interesting stuff, Butterbumps.

The Slayer of lies has Jon connections as well. The man with a red sword and no shadow seems to be Stannis who has already become intertwined with Jon's tale before Dany will ever cross his path. I imagine the cloth dragon is Aegon. Jon is a Targ heir in hiding much like Aegon at least from Dany's perspective. Assuming Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon that puts Jon as the juxtaposed authentic dragon. They both point to an intersection of Jon and Dany's stories. The stone beast could be a greyscale reference and the Shireen, Connington, and Illyrio's Serra are connected by that theme and seem poised to play a role in both Dany and Jon. It could also be a LF reference with his grandfather's Titan of Braavos sigil and his rather beast-like nature. With Sansa's unfolding story in the Vale it seems likely that both Jon and Dany will intersect there somehow. Mostly I see these three as hints of Jon and Dany intersecting at some point. Stannis as an AA figure who is a lie to be slain does tend to hint at Dany or Jon with his strong connection to these visions being the true AA candidate.

Glad im not the only one who thinks there's going to be an initial Vale meeting

For future reference, I wonder if Ghost gives Jon a direct link to the Weir Wood Net whenever he needs to speak to Bran, it would put Varys abilities to shame

[Ragnorak]

Does snow make a sound?

Standing outside alone at night amidst falling snow has a serenity akin to silence. When the flakes begin to crystalize bordering on ice they make a faint and distant tinkling sound like thousands of distant tiny bells at the edge of hearing. The noise is a muted chorus at the edge of perception since without consciously listening any distraction of sight or sound and the brain will ignore it and it vanishes in the background. Heavier wet snow makes a similarly almost imperceptible sound as the flakes plummet into the already accumulated ground fall. It is a far gentler and more subtle version of the crunching noise one hears while packing a snowball and also at the edge of perception like its crystalized kin. I imagine it can be very accurately described as "a sigh" as Martin does with:

the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow

Ghost's silent howl that echoes through the forest is a very curious thing. The forest is essentially a network of trees like the fabric that is the old gods. Perhaps Ghost's eyes being open when they first find him is a sign that he was more attuned to Jon who heard him, or that Ghost's "third eye" was already opened, or maybe his silent howls always echo through the weirwood network and his being mute is a symptom of a more developed perception elsewhere? Much of this encounter is clearly mystical and symbolic and invites a great deal of speculation. Ghost can be heard, Bran is a weirwood tree that sprouts from the rock and grows before his eyes, Ghost can smell the weirwood that likely isn't really there as well as Summer and Bran and the Winterfell crypts even though Bran is "in" Summer and Summer isn't in the crypts. The weirwood face has red eyes but Jon recognizes it as Bran with three eyes. The identities of boy and wolf oscillate interchangeably

He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees

Ghost is expecting to see Summer after Bran calls "Jon" and Jon sees Bran but the whole scene runs fluidly. From Bran's perspective in the last chapter he only references touching Ghost and talking to Jon but Bran elaborates a good deal more on his own mindset.

He remembered who he was all too well; Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that.

The dark place was pulling at him by then, the house of whispers where all men were blind. He could feel its cold fingers on him. The stony smell of it was a whisper up the nose. He struggled against the pull. He did not like the darkness. He was wolf. He was hunter and stalker and slayer, and he belonged with his brothers and sisters in the deep woods, running free beneath a starry sky. He sat on his haunches, raised his head, and howled. I will not go, he cried. I am wolf, I will not go. Yet even so the darkness thickened, until it covered his eyes and filled his nose and stopped his ears, so he could not see or smell or hear or run, and the grey cliffs were gone and the dead horse was gone and his brother was gone and all was black and still and black and cold and black and dead and black…

Both Bran and Jon's wolf dreams have a longing to be reunited with siblings matched with the wolf sitting back and howling.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent?

The two wolves reflect their masters. Bran has a more immature desire to simply run free with his siblings while Jon is more acutely aware of the loss and the threat of a much larger world and his buried desire for a connection to his family is mirrored in the wolf's sense of lost connection. Given Bran's almost unconscious recollections can we reasonably speculate that Bloodraven's influence is at play? Ghost's view of the wildlings as something Jon needed to see is somewhat similar to Bran's vision before he woke. That Ghost managed to travel to the place with a view of exactly what they wanted to see is also curios as we get no notion of an intended destination in Jon's wolf dream.

There is probably something fairly obvious in the weirwood sprouting from stone that I'm missing at the moment. Ghost's reaction to the dead in the crypts is noteworthy because Summer was similarly reluctant to enter the crypts back in GoT and his behavior resembles his attitude at the Fist.

As an aside "The Milkwater" is an odd name for this river. It has a nourishing or life sustaining connotation like "the land of milk and honey" yet the Frostfangs seem a most inhospitable place. The graves here hint at a more ancient place of great importance and maybe the name harkens back to that time. It could be purely a visual name if the river seems white from reflected snow a rapids but we don't get any "white river" visuals from the description.

[redviper9]

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<snip>

Excellent posts as always, bumps! I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment that the defining characteristic of the Cat-Jon relationship was distance, not hatred.

Qhorin telling Jon about how important it is to know the men around him is not the first time that Jon has heard this particular piece of wisdom from a mentor figure.

From AGoT, Jon IX:

The Old Bear snorted. "Do you think they chose me Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because I'm dumb as a stump, Snow? Aemon told me you'd go. I told him you'd be back. I know my men...and my boys too. Honor set you on the kingsroad...and honor brought you back."

We also know that Robb -- and presumably Jon -- received similar advice from Ned.

From AGoT, Arya II:

Back at Winterfell, they had eaten in the Great Hall almost half the time. Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. "Know the men who follow you," she heard him tell Robb once, "and let them know you. Don't ask your men to die for a stranger."

Though Ned's quote was directed at Robb, it is safe to assume that Jon heard it as well, since we learned in his first AGoT chapter that he always sat at table with his siblings.

So, we have three men -- four, if you count Donal Noye, since he realized that Jon's disdain of his fellow recruits stemmed in part from his not knowing the circumstances of their life pre-Night's Watch (AGoT, Jon III) -- stressing that knowing the men around you is a fundamental part of effective leadership. It will be interesting to see how Jon does -- and does not -- apply these lessons as his arc progresses. And of course this dictum also opens another comparative window to the arcs of other characters who suddenly find themselves in leadership positions (Aegon, Cersei, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion).

Bride of Fire is often taken as a Jon/Dany marriage indication with the blue flower and ice reference. Looking at the aspect we know best I would focus on the silver horse trotting. It was a wedding gift from Drogo but it was also the thing that gave Dany the courage and inspiration to survive the Dothraki Sea. One could read this as Drogo, Victarion and Jon as her three husbands but that leaves out Hizdar who we know she actually married. I see a theme involving the dragons. Her Silver gave her the strength and inspiration to find something within herself that eventually led to the birth of the three dragons. Victarion has the dragon horn designed to control dragons leading us to Jon as a warg and a Targ intertwined with Bran and Bloodraven to fulfill some other piece of the idea that Dany is "married" to fire through her dragon relationship rather than any husbands she may have. The Blue Flower in the ice is clearly a Jon reference, but again I think it is best understood through the known parallel to the symbolic importance of her Silver regardless of which final conclusion one reaches.

Excellent post, Ragnorak.

I've been thinking about the Bride of Fire visions since butterbumps! put up her post, and I think they could also be interpreted as obstacles that will present themselves throughout Dany's attempt to take the Iron Throne. The Silver could be indicative of how Dany has felt most at home when she was with Drogo in the Dothraki Sea; this of course earned her scorn from Viserys, and it is something that she has long felt needs to be put behind her ("if I look back, I am lost"). If the corpse on the ship's prow is Victarion, he is coming to Slaver's Bay to bring the dragons under his control and then marry Dany for his own purposes. If the corpse represents Jon Connington -- another popular interpretation of this particular vision -- then he is someone that Dany will have to confront, since he is backing someone who ostensibly has a better claim to the Iron Throne than she does. The blue rose -- Jon Snow -- could also prove a hindrance if, as has been theorized, Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son, which would give him a better claim to the Iron Throne than Dany if that knowledge became public. The blue rose could also mean that Dany will have to abandon the quest for the throne to aid Jon in the fight against the Others. As we've seen from Stannis, it is almost impossible to have it both ways when it comes to fighting the Others and fighting for the Iron Throne. Though Stannis remains in the North and is aware of the threat the Others pose, when last we see him, he's trying to rally the Northerners not to defeat the Others, but to continue pressing his claim to the throne.

[Lummel]

...The forest is essentially a network of trees like the fabric that is the old gods...

There is probably something fairly obvious in the weirwood sprouting from stone that I'm missing at the moment...

life from death?

When you describe the forest as the fabric of the old gods it strikes me how powerful an image that is. The forest is the literal realm of the old gods, the expedition was physically moving through the old gods, among them, between them, beneath them. No surprise then that it is called the haunted forest?

[Maia]

Maia, I'm not sure what your point is, but I am concerned, because this and the other post appear to be suggesting that you believe all of Jon's successes are handed to him, that he is utterly privileged and hasn't earned anything, and that when he will eventually succeed it's because it all just happened for him, through no virtue of his own ("organically" and such).

Sorry, Butterbumps!, I must have expressed myself badly. This wasn't my point at all. I do have some reservations re: Jon's character arc and his resemblance to well-worn stereotypes, I am more critical of Starks and the northmen in general than you are (IIRC, don't want to put words into your mouth or anything) and I have even been known to defend some some of the positions of "jackanapes on the Wall" and intend to do so in the future, when we come to it.

I freely admit that countless threads dedicated to Dany-bashing and Jon-adulation tend to irritate me and sometimes lead to heated responses on my part.

None of it, however, means that I think that Jon's education and training guaranteed his success and it did so automatically, with no effort and synthesis on his own part. On the contrary - the books are full of people who received similar education and have vastly more experience, but couldn't apply any of it half as constructively. Which is quite realistic, IMHO. Education can be very helpful, but without talent and ability as well as will to learn from one's experiences, it can only carry one so far.

Between Davos and vast majority of the lords of Westeros, I know who I'd trust to be in charge! But does it mean that Davos _wasn't_ disadvantaged by his lack of education and noble training? Not IMHO. With a lot of dedication, talent and luck he was able to overcome it, though.

I am not a particular fan of Robb either, but surely it is legitimate to wonder if Jon having more time to mature, greater variety of mentors, etc. was helpful to him? If Robb being catapulted into position of power interfered with his ability to learn from the mentors he had, because of complicated power dynamics and whether Jon would have done better in his shoes? And whether Robb might have done worse in Jon's?

in Robb's case, he was utterly more privileged than Jon in terms of being prepared to lead and having councillors at his disposal. Half of the advice Jon gets in aGoT is to bring him up to a "baseline" of worth given that he's a bastard, and thus, not as important as a trueborn like his brother. Robb obviously didn't need those lessons.

I disagree with this. Jon and Robb had the same education at Winterfell - it is just that their expectations were different. IMHO, Robb could have used these extra lessons, particularly those in himility. Whether he would have been capable of learning from them is another question. Whether a person in power can have mentors in traditional sense and what ideal interaction with their advisers should be like is a discussion for the future, since this would be getting ahead of the re-read, as regards Jon.

I think there's a rather deliberate purpose on Martin's part for setting Jon up with these mentors and other particulars of his path to leadership. I suspect the most likely candidate to contrast with Jon's leadership arc is actually Aegon-- though Dany/Jon and Dany/Aegon have some rich potential as well. We get this exposition from Varys on the idea of being trained from birth to lead: We're told Aegon has been shaped to rule but shown Jon being shaped. We see Aegon toss the Cyvasse pieces in a tantrum with Tyrion, we see JonCon reflect on how sheltered they have kept him when it is time to meet the GC, we see the immature desire he has to be part of the battle that was part of the na&iuml;ve Robb/Jon/Bran early development or a thing only the death of companions at the hands of corsairs quieted in Quentyn.

I am very glad that you brought up Aegon and Quentyn! They are great comparison to Jon/Dany/Robb, being sufficiently close in age, etc.With the former, he has a great theoretical education - in fact, he is probably more knowledgeable than would be normal for a crown prince/high lord's heir. But due to circumstances, he had no opportunity to observe a feodal ruler at his work or to gain practical experience himself. Will he be able to step up to the plate? The jury is out.

I disagree that his desire to be part of the battle is all that immature, BTW. He does need to prove himself as a worthy alternative to Dany (not to mention various other contenders) and it is a pretty high hurdle to take. Both Robb and Jon profited from proving themselves in a fight and Dany is often criticized by the readers as less worthy contender because of her inability to do the same.

As to Quentyn - he had it all. Complete noble education and training, an opportunity to gather experience and widen his horizons while in charge of a smaller group of people, the works... And he couldn't leverage it properly. So, clearly, education doesn't guarantee success.

P.S. "Stone beast" of Dany's vision = Connington, my mind is blown! Particularly with his scene standing on the tower-top in ADwD. And it makes perfect sense for the "beast" not to be a dragon, because why wouldn't Dany identify it as such? Does Dany even know what a griffin is supposed to look like? So "shadow fire" - greyscale plague? Shadow of the past, of Rhaegar's fire?

Re: there being no evil in Ygritte's eyes - would it have mattered to Jon if she was a boy? What was he taught about Ned's adversaries in the War of the Usurper or about Mormont women, for that matter?

It also occurs to me that I don't recall any evidence of Robb sparing enemy common soldiers and taking them captive. Would Jon have tried to do so? That could be an interesting dichotomy between them, if true.

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

I disagree with this. Jon and Robb had the same education at Winterfell - it is just that their expectations were different. IMHO, Robb could have used these extra lessons, particularly those in himility. Whether he would have been capable of learning from them is another question. Whether a person in power can have mentors in traditional sense and what ideal interaction with their advisers should be like is a discussion for the future, since this would be getting ahead of the re-read, as regards Jon.

...

I don't mean to split hairs, especially because I basically agree with the final conclusion, but Jon's "lessons" in humility were more a product of his experiences rather than his training. Jon's intentional training would have differed only in as much as Bran's training would have differed in that he was being prepared to have Robb as the Lord of Winterfell one day. We see Bran and Arya and Sansa all think at some point about being as brave or strong as Robb. Jon is peculiar in that he was the same age as Robb so was a peer in activities as opposed to a younger less experienced brother so we don't see the same type of admiration for Robb that we do in the younger siblings. That is more of an age/peer group dynamic than one born of a training disparity. Jon's lack of entitlement in his expectations turned into a positive humility (which Robb could have certainly benefitted from) but we don't see that same humility in Ramsay Bolton or even a more positive bastard figure like Edric Storm. In some ways Jon bears more of a resemblance to Ned who never expected to rule and feels it was all meant for Brandon. I think this Robb/Jon distinction is best demonstrated by Jon's hero the Young Dragon. Robb followed the steps of the Young Dragon and became the Young Wolf and met the same early grave as the cost of the glory while Jon takes a different path.

I emphasize the training/experience distinction because I think it matters a great deal for comparing candidates like Aegon. There is no substitute for experience and he doesn't have any. He's had no siblings, no friends his own age. He's never even had to argue over sharing a toy or debate whose turn it was to be the knight and whose turn it was to be the monster. Bringing it back to this chapter Redviper9 listed all the places Jon learns the lesson of "knowing your men." The lesson and the reality is different. Ned gave him the experience of having a different man at the dinner table and taught him to observe men training in the yard, but Qhorin's lesson of giving men the freedom to choose is an experience that takes this lesson to another level. It wouldn't have been nearly as impactful if he had witnessed Mormont do it to someone else.

That Jon was the one given the choice that his commander might know him better is a lesson that almost can't be taught to a would-be-lord who knows he'll never really be subordinate to anyone. I imagine that this is really your point-- that the training Ned gave impacted Jon the Bastard differently than Robb the Future Lord. While true, I think those differences start to overflow into class distinctions, family dynamics and individual personalities more so than marking it as a difference in training and that becomes more evident in comparing and contrasting Robb/Jon/Jaime/Aegon/Dany/Tyrion/etc.

I am very glad that you brought up Aegon and Quentyn! They are great comparison to Jon/Dany/Robb, being sufficiently close in age, etc.With the former, he has a great theoretical education - in fact, he is probably more knowledgeable than would be normal for a crown prince/high lord's heir. But due to circumstances, he had no opportunity to observe a feodal ruler at his work or to gain practical experience himself. Will he be able to step up to the plate? The jury is out.

I disagree that his desire to be part of the battle is all that immature, BTW. He does need to prove himself as a worthy alternative to Dany (not to mention various other contenders) and it is a pretty high hurdle to take. Both Robb and Jon profited from proving themselves in a fight and Dany is often criticized by the readers as less worthy contender because of her inability to do the same.

As to Quentyn - he had it all. Complete noble education and training, an opportunity to gather experience and widen his horizons while in charge of a smaller group of people, the works... And he couldn't leverage it properly. So, clearly, education doesn't guarantee success.

P.S. "Stone beast" of Dany's vision = Connington, my mind is blown! Particularly with his scene standing on the tower-top in ADwD. And it makes perfect sense for the "beast" not to be a dragon, because why wouldn't Dany identify it as such? Does Dany even know what a griffin is supposed to look like? So "shadow fire" - greyscale plague? Shadow of the past, of Rhaegar's fire?

Re: there being no evil in Ygritte's eyes - would it have mattered to Jon if she was a boy? What was he taught about Ned's adversaries in the War of the Usurper or about Mormont women, for that matter?

It also occurs to me that I don't recall any evidence of Robb sparing enemy common soldiers and taking them captive. Would Jon have tried to do so? That could be an interesting dichotomy between them, if true.

I agree that it is important that Aegon take part in the battle and he is even correct to insist on this over Connington's overprotective objections. There are some Tyrion/Cersei viewpoint parallels over Joffrey at the Blackwater that apply. I just don't think Aegon truly understands why he is correct to insist on it. I think he wants to be part of the great glorious battle because all boys his age do. Jon wanted to go on the ranging with Benjen when he first arrived at the Wall and he volunteered to go on the ranging with Qhorin. Same choice but it comes from a very different place with a very different understanding. Aegon strikes me as at the Jon wanting to go with Benjen stage.

Quentyn strikes me as tragic irony. He received all the training and education but his father's most important lesson is the Water Gardens and Quentyn never seems to have learned it. To prove himself worthy to his father he risked the only coin his father would never want him to gamble-- his life. There are parallels in Quentyn's internal debate to the Robb/Cat debate over trading Jaime for Sansa in terms of duty, public perception, and family. In GoT I suspect Jon would make Robb's choice if put in the same position, but by Dance I think Jon would trade Jaime for Sansa and call it a blessing. I think the upcoming lesson from the Halfhand about honor and the sense of loss over Ygritte's death are what make that difference. I suspect Ned would always have made the Sansa/Jaime trade as well. Jon is never faced with that choice but starting with Gilly's plea we begin to see leadership-like dilemmas emerge.

I do think Robb was faced with this choice of beheading a woman with Osha. She survived the fight and she yielded. Luwin suggests questioning her and Robb takes up the suggestion in a manner Bran sees as relief. Robb does spare her and she's a Wildling like Ygritte so there's some comparison material there. One of the key differences is that Qhorin dumps the decision on Jon while Luwin offers Robb an "out" should he choose to take it. Robb has Osha/Karstark and Jon has Ygritte/Slynt. Each spares a Wildling first and executes a lord later.

life from death?

When you describe the forest as the fabric of the old gods it strikes me how powerful an image that is. The forest is the literal realm of the old gods, the expedition was physically moving through the old gods, among them, between them, beneath them. No surprise then that it is called the haunted forest?

I'm actually quite taken with the way Martin writes this. The idea of magic is very strong but mostly through implication. The tree growing out of the rock and Bran having three eyes are overt. Ghost's howl is rather mundane except for his being a mute. The eyes are red which implies a typical weirwood face yet Jon sees Bran and not a heart tree face and does not have red eyes. The third eye distracts from the color making it downplayed and a seemingly normal description of looking at a face one knows from the raw writing, yet clearly there is another perception at play beyond merely the visual. Silent shouts softer than a whisper also play up this other level of perception and the overall effect echoes Jon trying to interpret this new sense in terms of the traditional senses he understands.

I think Varamyr's death moment before entering his second life does a good job of capturing the sense of the forest you describe.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on

[Mladen]

It's been a while since I haven't been around, and as always, I missed some brilliant posts. Butterbumps, Ragnorak and Lummel, I am in awe with what I have read the past two days, especially the last chapter's analysis by butterbumps, and following posts by the three of you... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: ...

As always, I would like to add couple of my thoughts

1. New insights for Sansa and Jon. In wonderful parallels butterbumps and Ragnorak made, I have nothing more to add, but just to notice that Ygritte and Sandor are breaking deeply rooted ideas Sansa and Jon have about knights and wildlings. The idea that wildlings are enemies, this dehumanizing principle, that is opposite to Sansa's ideas of knights, is challenged when he sees Ygritte. Interestingly, both Sansa and Jon looked in the eyes of Sandor and Ygritte to find the unpleasent truth that world isn't as easy and simple as they thought it to be. Sansa's constatation about 'he wasn't true knight;, parallels Jon's 'she was a woman'. Here we see how Jon shows, not immaturity, but his inexperience in battle...

2. You should know who your enemies are. This is continuation of previous point. While Qhorin shares with Jon Mance's story, with previous sparing Ygritte and knowing what will come in ASOS when Jon joins Mance, we can see the continuum of Jon's principles being tested. It;s step by step of acknowledging that those wildings aren't his worst enemy, and that they are also humans, just like he is.The realization that world is a bit more complex, will lead to realization that there is only one enemy worthy of fighting - the Others.

The shadows are where all the Stark children end up hiding at one stage or another. The shadows also suggest a certain greyness and ambiguity in stark opposition to Melisandre's the onion is good or rotten, not both.

This is wonderful point. Melisandre is type of woman who perfectly knows her enemies, dividing people in 2 groups. Jon's storyarc, beginning here, and all through ASOS and ADWD shows us that ability to see pass differences and make compromizes for greater good is sometimes best thing to do.

3. Snow. There is powerful imagery in wolves and snow. I have watched wolves playing while it's snowing entire night, and it is powerful image and especially good motif for literature. There is powerful presence of snow here, everything is covered in it, so white and quiet. Jon's presence here and his first warging is also powerfully connected with snows. We have also seen what snowflakes in Robb's hair meant to his siblings, and of course, Sansa's snow castle scene. There is deep connection between Starks as wolves and snow imagery, and I think we should be especially careful when it is included in their

chapters.

There are even more points you raised, but alas, I have nothing smart to add that hasn't been said... :)

[redviper9]

Re: there being no evil in Ygritte's eyes - would it have mattered to Jon if she was a boy? What was he taught about Ned's adversaries in the War of the Usurper or about Mormont women, for that matter?

It also occurs to me that I don't recall any evidence of Robb sparing enemy common soldiers and taking them captive. Would Jon have tried to do so? That could be an interesting dichotomy between them, if true.

It's probably impossible to predict what would Jon would have done if Ygritte had turned out to be a man and not a woman. We do know that Ned appears to have rarely spoken to his children about Robert's Rebellion (we know he told Bran about Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed, but Bran had never heard about the events at the Tourney of Harrenhal, and Arya notes when Ned compares her to Lyanna that he rarely spoke of his siblings or his father). Jon was well aware of the Mormont women, since he was able to tell Stannis about Lady Maege and her daughters in ADwD. And we also know that Robb never appears to have been in a similar situation to the one where Jon encountered Ygritte (a small scouting party encountering another small scouting party); the Blackfish commanded Robb's scouts, and though Robb led from the front lines, he always had his personal guard around him.

What is very important about the Ygritte situation in this chapter is that we see Jon applying the first lesson that we as readers see Ned teaching his children: namely, that the person who passes the sentence should swing the blade, and that if you cannot look the condemned in the eye and hear their last words, then they might not deserve to die. We see all of Ned's children grapple with this at some point: Robb executes Rickard Karstark himself (ASoS, Catelyn III); Sansa is racked with guilt about lying to the Vale lords about it having been Marillion who killed Lysa (interestingly enough, Marillion has had his eyes put out by the time Sansa delivers her testimony, so it's impossible for her to look him in the eye as she contributes to his death sentence) (AFfC, Sansa I); Arya condemns Dareon as a Night's Watch deserter and delivers the fatal blow (AFfC, Cat of the Canals); Bran spoke through the heart tree when Theon expressed his desire to die as an Ironborn (ADwD, A Ghost in Winterfell).

We of course know that this practice has its roots in the First Men's tradition of not using headsmen. But we also learn when Cat talks to Jeyne Westerling following Rickard Karstark's execution that Ned didn't want his children -- or his male children, at least; Ned was upset that Sansa was in court the day he sentenced Gregor Clegane to die -- to ever feel that death was an easy thing to dole out. It in many ways is a variant of the lesson Benjen Stark tried to teach Jon when the latter boasted about his admiration for Daeron the Young Dragon: war (and death) is not a game...it's incredibly serious business. Jon's meeting Ygritte in the Skirling Pass is what really drove the lesson home, the moment he started comprehending that it shouldn't be easy and that you shouldn't take pleasure in taking someone's life.

[Lummel]

...What is very important about the Ygritte situation in this chapter is that we see Jon applying the first lesson that we as readers see Ned teaching his children: namely, that the person who passes the sentence should swing the blade, and that if you cannot look the condemned in the eye and hear their last words, then they might not deserve to die. We see all of Ned's children grapple with this at some point...

It strikes me suddenly that this moment of choice as Jon looks deep into the eyes of the condemned is repeated three times, this is the first time, then we have the nameless old man in ASOS and finally Janos Slynt in ADWD. Another example of GRRM using the rule of three, but also like you say there how far the Stark children have taken The Ned's teachings on board.

...I think this Robb/Jon distinction is best demonstrated by Jon's hero the Young Dragon. Robb followed the steps of the Young Dragon and became the Young Wolf and met the same early grave as the cost of the glory while Jon takes a different path.

I emphasize the training/experience distinction because I think it matters a great deal for comparing candidates like Aegon. There is no substitute for experience and he doesn't have any...

...I'm actually quite taken with the way Martin writes this. The idea of magic is very strong but mostly through implication...

Interesting that you bring in the young dragon - this is another of those songs versus history points, I think it comes up in Tyrion in ASOS the victory was ephemeral, what was won by the sword was lost soon after it was marriage that really tied the realm together not warfare which simply brought about the deaths of many - songs are the collective memory of Westeros so are a part of the way that people become educated.

The Young Wolf / Young Dragon ties in and gets knotted up again with the Sansa and Jon discussion in this way as the songs are put increasingly to one side as the children have to accept more complex realities. Well this is Bildungsroman stuff, the twist is the focus on leadership and rule. "The child is the father of the man". Therefore given the promised bittersweet ending I suspect that Jon doesn't end up as King, simply that we believe that he would be a very capable one while! ETA ties in with our theme from AGOT of the road not taken and Frost/Snow - another GRRM joke?

I think you define GRRM's use of magic very well there.

...As an aside "The Milkwater" is an odd name for this river. It has a nourishing or life sustaining connotation like "the land of milk and honey" yet the Frostfangs seem a most inhospitable place. The graves here hint at a more ancient place of great importance and maybe the name harkens back to that time. It could be purely a visual name if the river seems white from reflected snow a rapids but we don't get any "white river" visuals from the description.

Hmm it does make you think, its a contradictory juxtaposition like the weirwood from rock and may highlight the weirdness / magical element of this landscape populated by old gods, cold gods and who knows what else, although there could also be a mundane explanation I suppose :)

[Maia]

I don't mean to split hairs, especially because I basically agree with the final conclusion, but Jon's "lessons" in humility were more a product of his experiences rather than his training.

Well, I am now going through the previous thread of Jon re-read and I see that it has been already pointed out that Jon was a mixture of humility and arrogance while at Winterfell. He was humble towards the Stark family, as his self-effacement in order to protect the pups amply showed.

But rather arrogant towards everybody else. Those squires with whom he was sitting at the feast were so beyond his notice, that we didn't even learn their names from his PoV - and yet they must have been nobly/gently-born youths, what being in service to the royal party. Not sitting with the royal family was a huge affront. He believed himself ready to go on a ranging immediately upon arriving at the Wall. Etc. So, the lessons of humility and general reality check that Jon received as a result of his NW training and yes, experiences that he was able to gain as a rank-and-file NW member before his elevation were both welcome and significant.

I mean, a Jon that never went to NW and marched to war together with Robb would have been a much less down-to-earth, open-minded person, IMHO.

Anyway, another thing that occured to me is that Jon, like the majority (or even all?) of Stark children, has quite a killer instinct. He killed his first man handily and didn't have a strong psychological reaction to it aftterwards either.

Compare and contrast with Aegon, who froze in his first fight and Quentyn who... I don't remember, did he actually kill anybody when corsairs attacked? Or even at Astapor? He seemed to be in a haze there.

Robb did quite well his first time as well, though the situation was an emotionally charged "protect little brother, kill or be killed", as opposed to cooly chosing a target in advance, etc., which, I imagine, is probably harder. We don't know if he had a strong emotional reaction to it either, beyond fear for Bran. He didn't throw up or anything, though.

Bran himself has killed people while being skin-changed into Summer at a much younger age, and it didn't seem to affect him, though the wolf's simpler psyche might be helping him to cope. But no nightmares or anything for him.

And, of course, it is impossible to say with Rickon - he does seem to be tightly bound with Shaggydog, so most likely yes, but he is too young to understand what he is doing.

Ironically enough, Arya had the most difficulty/the most pronounced reaction to her first killing, even though Bran was the same age or younger than her when he made his first kill. Likely because it was another child and she wasn't as tightly connected to Nymeria at the time?

And yes, Sansa has now helped to kill Marillion with words and was already in a proper head-space to kill Joff when she had an opportunity on the ramparts of the Red Keep in AGOT.

Keeping in mind Brienne's example of how even the best training and mental preparation for eventually having to fight and kill, that all male nobles go through, doesn't guarantee the ability to do it the first time around, this seems significant and points out the Starks as survivors well adapted to this hard, violent world.

I'd like to underscore that I don't in any way intend to denigrate the Starks - on the contrary, given that despite this relative ease whith which they are able to kill if they have to, they don't, for the most part, let it seduce them into enjoying it or into seeing killing as a first resort to solve their problems .

Robb followed the steps of the Young Dragon and became the Young Wolf and met the same early grave as the cost of the glory while Jon takes a different path.

Oh, yes, indeed.

I emphasize the training/experience distinction because I think it matters a great deal for comparing candidates like Aegon. There is no substitute for experience and he doesn't have any. He's had no siblings, no friends his own age.

But also look at Quentyn, who had all these things. In fact, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that there are a lot of interesting parallels and juxtapositions between Quentyn's quest and Jon's ranging beyond the Wall. I mean, 2 father figures in both cases, young men who newly achieved a formal adult status - a full brother of NW and a knight respectively, going on a dangerous mission with a small group of comrades, losing all/half of their original companions, having to join a different group of people under false pretences to achieve a goal... etc., etc. I might write it up in the future if I have time , it seems rather interesting, to me, at least.

That Jon was the one given the choice that his commander might know him better is a lesson that almost can't be taught to a would-be-lord who knows he'll never really be subordinate to anyone.

Hm, maybe the system of squiring/fostering is supposed to do it, to some degree?

I mean a squire is supposed to serve his knight menially too, no matter how high his birth status. Some humility could be learned there, as well as appreciation for servants, though it is difficult to say about choice. Edric Dayne must have been learning plenty about it, but then, his circumstances were quite unusual.

Jon wanted to go on the ranging with Benjen when he first arrived at the Wall and he volunteered to go on the ranging with Qhorin. Same choice but it comes from a very different place with a very different understanding. Aegon strikes me as at the Jon wanting to go with Benjen stage.

Yes, but Aegon doesn't have the time to grow into a different understanding. He is already in the limelight and must prove why he is worthy of being the big cheese.

P.S. And yes, in Robb's place Jon would have done everything in his power to get the girls back, absolutely. Revenge wouldn't have been more important to him than living siblings.

[Lummel]

...Anyway, another thing that occured to me is that Jon, like the majority (or even all?) of Stark children, has quite a killer instinct. He killed his first man handily and didn't have a strong psychological reaction to it aftterwards either. Compare and contrast with Aegon, who froze in his first fight and Quentyn who... I don't remember, did he actually kill anybody when corsairs attacked? Or even at Astapor? He seemed to be in a haze there...

Perhaps the wolf/direwolf connection would account for that. They are a dangerous bunch, I don't think we should doubt that.

[Elba the Intoner]

I just realized rereading this chapter just how much I think hints to Qhorin planning something along the lines of getting Jon to infiltrate the Wildlings. After Jon relates his wolf "dream" which the others all recognize as a warging experience, they then begin to make their way on to where they thing the Wildlings are camped. They then spot the Eagle and know that it is watching them. So, why didn't Qhorin turn back there? He seems to understand that it has spotted them. But they keep going and then they find Ghost, tend to him, and then Qhorin says that they are turning back which surprises Jon. One reason may have been that they wanted to find Ghost because he knows he' valuable to them, but I think there's something more there. It's as if he's giving the Eagle time to go back to the Wildlings and start their pursuit of them. I think when he first saw the Eagle watching them Qhorin formed this plan to give the Wildlings time to start their pursuit knowing that they would not be able to get away from them. It says he looked at it long and hard which suggests he's thinking about what to do. Also finding Ghost was important to this mission as well since Qhorin knows that the Wildlings understand wargs and would be even more likely to accept Jon knowing that he's a warg.

[Lummel]

Well that thought Elba leds us nicely into our final chapter of ACOK!

Jon VIII ACOK

Overview

This is the penultimate chapter of ACOK. It is followed by Bran emerging from the ruins of Winterfell but with hope of its restoration and preceded by Tyrion finding that he has survived the Battle of the Blackwater. Survival, but at a cost, is the final message of ACOK.

This chapter is true to that pattern. As in the last two chapters we start in the middle of the action. This is then followed by flashbacks that explain how our hero got to this point before we proceed to the conclusion.

Jon and Qhorin are alone. The others have peeled off. They are still being pursued by wildlings with the warg-eagle watching on. Qhorin gets Jon to repeat his vows with him, then commands him to join the wildlings if he gets a chance to gain intelligence of whatever Mcguffin Mance has found before making his way back to the watch. As ever in Westeros dying for a cause is the easy option. Life is the tough thing. The next day Qhorin and Jon are trapped by the wildlings. Jon turns his cloak, is obliged by the wildlings to kill Qhorin as an indication of good faith or faithlessness depending on which side of the Wall you stand on, which with a little help from Ghost and his sharp sword he does, realising that Qhorin sacrificed himself to buy Jon's life. Jon asks Ygritte if they will be returning through the Skirling pass – but that lies behind them. A new road is before them in ASOS.

Observations

• “Fire is life up here...but it can be death as well” (Qhorin Jon VI) “When Qhorin Halfhand told him to find some brush for a fire Jon knew their end was near.” (opening of Jon VIII)
  
• Jon imagines connections between all the Stark direwolves – is this assumed knowledge carried over from his wolf dream? A similar scene begins the Jon narrative in ADWD
  
• Half moon rising – there was a full moon behind Sam at the end of AGOT
  
• “When he slept, he did not dream, not of wolves, nor his brothers, nor anything. Even dreams cannot live up here, he told himself”
  
• Qhorin calls Jon “Jon Snow” four times. Only after Jon swears to turn his cloak if necessary does Qhorin then start to call him “brother” for the first times in ACOK.
  
• The vow: “They were not words a man was like to forget. Once said, they could never be unsaid. They changed your life forever.”
  
• Jon prays “that his father's gods would give him the strength to die bravely when his hour came” Again his father's gods, not my gods, or the gods. Is there maybe some ancestor worship here contained within Stark old gods worship? What of the Rhaegar irony (if L+R=J) and what god would that be?
  
• “Our honour means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe” I think this is something that Jon particularly takes to heart when he gets to be Lord Commander
  
• “Sleep came at last, and with it nightmares. He dreamt of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves” - a Bran reference? But also contrasts with the dreamlessness above
  
• “This is the bastard of Winterfell, who spared me. Let him live...His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark's blood, of Winterfell” Stark, Winterfell, The Ned, these names carry weight amongst the Wildlings while the Watch are crows, tricksy animals and not to be trusted. Yet both presumably have a reputation as enemies of the Wildlings...
  
• “These are a free folk indeed, thought Jon.”
  
• 'the others threw dice for the ranger's gear. Ygritte won his cloak.' It strikes me that the Wildlings just happen to be carrying around dice with them. Hmm. Drawing straws - now that's something you can do anywhere, unless of course the Wildlings are secret fans of playing D&D, dice is a curious choice of word here.
  
• '”There's nothing behind us”. The look she gave him was sad.' The force of loss is strong with Ygritte, the sense of leaving her homeland, the death of their way of life...
  
• Garron
  

Analysis

Fate, calculation, predestination, insight

“Send Jon,” Ebben had urged. “He can ride as fast as me.”

“Jon has a different part to play”

“He is half a boy still.”

“No,” said Qhorin, “he is a man of the Night's watch”.

Does Qhorin decide at the Fist that Jon is worth bringing on the mission because he knows the Wildlings will accept a Stark (or is it because Jon is a warg?) as turncloak? Clearly at some stage Qhorin decided that was a viable option and by this moment Qhorin seems certain – given the following events that this is what Jon will have to do. Qhorin is an increasingly mysterious mentor figure. Is he a rational man, making rational calculations or is he tapping into wisdom or secret knowledge? Turning cloak, Qhorin seems to have realised, is the least risky option for Jon. We might bear in mind here Mormont and Aemon selecting Jon as a Steward. We have people perceiving value(s) in Jon that he is not consciously, or entirely, aware of.

Sentenced to life

He knew, he thought numbly. He knew what they would ask of me. He thought of Samwell Tarly then, of Grenn and Dolorous Edd, of Pyp and Toad back at Castle Black. Had he lost them, as he had lost Bran and Rickon and Robb? Who was he now? What was he?

Dying in Westeros is the easy way out. There is a link here to Arya's story in ASOS when she will sentence Sandor to life rather than giving him the 'gift' of death. Jon's connection here to his friends is superficial, he fears losing them on account of changing his cloak. This is an absolute step whose consequences he fears in contrast to the end of AGOT when he was quite prepared to break his oath. Has his experience ranging deepened his fraternal feelings for his friends?

The Wall

“The fire will soon go out...but if the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out” (repeated again in jon's thoughts later) shades of Edward Grey here, and also of my childhood favourite Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers. It is an extreme statement and contrasts with the Iron Throne story – it won't make much difference if Stannis or Joffrey sits the Iron Throne for Westeros. They'll reign then die. Life will go on for almost everybody the same way which ever face is on the coins. However for Qhorin keeping the Wall safe is huge – human civilisation can't exist at all in Westeros without the Wall. Is this hyperbole? A man trying to give meaning to his oath bound life? Or does he know something that he is not sharing with the reader? Clearly we are reading this in juxtaposition with the battle of the Blackwater and are meant to see that the stakes here are supposedly higher than the Wall itself.

The Wildling band

There are only fourteen with dogs, with shields of skin stretched over wicker work, helmets of wood and leather, small bows, basic weapons, a stone axe, a stone fail, wearing bits of looted armour “Wildlings did not mine nor smelt, and there were few smiths and fewer forges north of the Wall.”

This is the first wildling war band that we see and it is pretty unimpressive. It is clear why Mormont thought that with three hundred of the Watch he could cut up Mance's column.

Does anybody else have the feeling that north of the Wall is a kind of theme park preserving the conditions and way of life in Westeros before the Andals came?

Fighting could have been an option when there were five of them – Qhorin probably decided very early that turning his cloak would be the best way he could guarantee Jon's survival.

OK, well I'll be back mid week ish with a brief roundup of Jon's ACOK narrative. I have this odd feeling that paths, roads, routes, ways and other related words might get mentioned in it, before we move on to the Prologue of ASOS. And even if you can't wait you're gonna!

[Fire Eater]

From the previous chapter

Off in the darkness a shadowcat screamed in fury, it's voice bouncing off the rocks so it seemed as though a dozen other 'cats were giving answer. Once Jon thought he saw a pair of glowing eyes on a ledge overhead, as big as harvest moons.

Their [CotF] eyes were big too, great golden cat's eyes that could see down passages where a boy's eyes saw only darkness.

A CotF may have been watching Jon.

Duckfield found this one

"They burned brightly." Davos did not trust this man, for all his courtesy. House Florent had declared for Renly.

The Lady Melisandre tells us that sometimes R'hllor permits his faithful servants to glimpse the future in flames. It seemed to me as I watched the fire this morning that I was looking at a dozen beautiful dancers, maidens garbed in yellow silk spinning and swirling before a great king. I think it was a true vision, ser. A glimpse of the glory that awaits His Grace after we take King's Landing and the throne that it is his by rights."

The moon was rising behind one mountain and sun sinking behind another as Jon struck sparks from flint and dagger, until finally a wisp of smoke appeared. Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead dry, pine needles. "As shy as a maid on her wedding night," the big ranger said in a soft voice, "and near as fair. Sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be."

...

Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the fire. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to

Another king reference for Jon

Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man's throat, bright as a ruby necklace, the blood gushed out of him

One ruby necklace that comes to mind is Melisandre's. Could this foreshadow Jon killing her?

[Summer snow]

• 'the others threw dice for the ranger's gear. Ygritte won his cloak.' It strikes me that the Wildlings just happen to be carrying around dice with them. Hmm. Drawing straws - now that's something you can do anywhere, unless of course the Wildlings are secret fans of playing D&D, dice is a curious choice of word here.
  

this is another intresting biblical paralel in jon's story, evan though not directly.

the whole time spent ranging with qhorin has the feel of an apostolical/religious experience. passing from the old religious beliefs about old gods, warging and Others, learning and understending what the true enenmy is, to the more open-minded lord-commander jon that understands that the wildlings are humans deserving life and protection, ready for an uneasy alliance made with them.

[Lummel]

...Duckfield found this one...

Yes I think those two passages should be read together too as commenting on each other :) , I'm not sure though that we needed any more evidence that Stannis' Florent Hand was an idiot but still...

...the whole time spent ranging with qhorin has the feel of an apostolical/religious experience. passing from the old religious beliefs about old gods, warging and Others, learning and understending what the true enenmy is, to the more open-minded lord-commander jon that understands that the wildlings are humans deserving life and protection, ready for an uneasy alliance made with them.

Yes I agree, Qhorin is a very mysterious mentor though, we don't get to know him as well as he gets to know Jon I feel :(

[Ragnorak]

Very insightful write up, Lummel.

The idea of the Starks having ancestral worship is interesting. If they are wargs/greenseers by nature (at least more so than average) they do actually worship ancestors through the old god and greenseer/weirwwod connection. We see far more rigorous ancestral knowledge with the Starks than any of the other Houses-- even the ones that were formerly Kings. With the Lannisters we get Lann the Clever and Loren who bent the knee to the Targs with little concern for any other ancestors beyond living memory. The crypts with a visual representation of each Stark where one can walk back through the line gives a very different feel to the lineage than we see elsewhere. The closest parallel I think was the dragon skulls lining the throne room.

I suspect the Halfhand originally picked Jon primarily because of Ghost. In the prologue of GoT we see rangers hunting Wildlings and dying at the hands of the White Walkers and there have been steady and consistent reminders of that threat since. The Halfhand seems to in touch with the supernatural to not be aware of a connection that Mormont openly stated.

All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours… he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I’m not.” Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. “I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall.”

I imagine some of Jon's past actions reflected positively on him as a choice too but one of the first things choices they make on the ranging is fire or no fire (The duality of fire and darkness seem to yet another commentary on Mel's half rotten onion.). As readers we know the choice is fire if you're worried about wights and no fire if your concern is Wildlings. So I think Qhorin's initial choice of Jon was about Ghost as a way to mitigate the threat of the Others. The other rangers with him all have a reputation among the Wildlings and the possibility that they could switch sides was probably lost years ago. Jon is new so it is an option for him. This may have been in the Halfhand's awareness as a vague possibility from the start but probably didn't take shape until Jon spared Ygritte. Part of the test in letting Jon choose was likely about seeing whether or not Jon was suited for such a mission.

The primary goal seems to be to get word back to Mormont more so than surviving. Five disciplined, well armed and armored men would be formidable against the party of 14 Rattleshirt was leading. Dalbridge was to buy time for them to get a lead to make sure word reached the Fist, the two men that split off were also about placing a greater value on the chances of Mormont getting news than on the survival of the members of the ranging. Five sticking together could likely survive but not make it to Mormont or the Wall ahead of Mance.

Qhorin seems to be hoping for the best (they survive and reach Mormont) but planning for the worst (he dies and Jon turns his cloak.) He stays the course knowing his best and worse case options and hopes for an opportunity, something he can exploit, or the possible yet unlikely outcome that the hunters lose the trail.

“We may escape them yet,” the ranger said. “Or not.”

So he never gives up hope for survival until they emerge from the cave and see the eagle even though he seems prepared to die well before that. I like the duality of his actions in that they prepare Jon for his mission and himself for death. The vows recital is an important reminder to Jon but also reads like Qhorin asking Jon to pray with him as a man afraid of dying might do when the end is near.

“Do you remember the words of your vow?”

...

“Say them again with me, Jon Snow.”

...

Their voices blended as one beneath the rising moon

While Jon thinks the Halfhand is not the most companiable of men I suspect this is more about Qhorin's own internal preparations for what he fears must come and his being consumed with looking for a way to avoid that fate than it is his typical demeanor on a ranging. The way a man meets his end is more telling than any amount of chatter that may take place on a horse ride so we still get an excellent window into this man's character.

Qhorin's hopes for Jon on this mission strike me as very much like Jon's hopes for Val. It has far more to do with trust and faith in an individual's potential and ability than any well ordered scheme. Later it may be interesting to compare Qhorin tasking Jon here with Mance going after Arya and Val going after Tormund.

In general I think this is a particularly interesting chapter because the POV we see here will be entirely reversed come Dance with Dragons. Jon will be in Qhorin's knowledgeable and decision making capacity and he will share greater and lesser bits of information with various subordinates much like we see him limit the information he shares with Jon. The situation this small ranging faces here is a bit of a microcosm for the overall circumstances the Watch finds themselves in and Jon will choose a similar resolution in joining with the Wildlings. How much of Jon's reaction as a subordinate to Qhorin here can be applied to the Watch later when Jon is in Qhorin's shoes as leader? Obviously not Marsh but what about the rangers? Something to keep in mind for the future.

I also wonder if there may be hints buried in here as to Benjen's fate. If that horn Ghost found was left by Benjen that ties into Jon being sidetracked here to find out about a horn. Qhorin also sent two men back to take word to Mormont which fits with the two wights from Benjen's ranging they found. No way to know for sure but I wondered so I thought I'd throw it out there.

I really like that one Fire Eater. I'm particularly fond of those subtle ones and with the more obvious Mel/Sam rotten onion it becomes rather apparent that this is done intentionally.

[Mladen]

Lummel, as always, great job...

And, as always, I will add couple of my thoughts

1. Death is easy, life is complicated. Throughout the series, we see that death is liberating for so many characters. The most powerful jutaposition is RW aftermath, and dead Robb/Lady Stoneheart opposition. While Robb is beyond any sufferings, LS lingers in pain and darkness. The horror she, as Cat, has survived made of her monster who is just a shade of who previously was. Then we have Ned/Sansa opposition, where Ned is freed by death, and Sansa trapped by her life that brought her so many sufferings and so much unhappiness and tears. And finally, we come to Jon. His survival in this chapter will bring him more troubles, there will be paths to be taken that he doesn't want to, but he must. With the full circle of ACOK, and Tyrion/Davos/Bran/Jon survival, it is almost safe to say that no matter how complicated life is compared to death, one thing is certain: Death is so final, while life brings so many opportunities...

2. Moon imagery. Just like in the last chapter of AGOT, where the moon imagery was strong, and there I connected it with Stark blood in Jon, and powerful connection between wolves and moon, here we can do the same. Moon is rising, all around is snow, and Jon has another part to play, by Qhorin. Whether Qhorin counted Jon will be spared because of killing him, his Stark roots, being a warg, or simply because of Jon's mercy, it is unknown. Probably it has to do with all of it. But when Ygritte makes clear who he is - Bastard of Winterfell (curiously in the show, she says blood of Benjen Stark, as it has some deeper importance. Just to mention, don't know whether is relevant though). But, the moon seems to have liberating effect on Jon's storyarc. First time, it was about running from NW to his family, and this time he is about to join wildlings. In both cases, moon is strongly associated with Starks.

For the end, nice catch about dice, Lummel, and I would like to know are you still plotting something about D&E? :)