The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Lummel]

...I suspect the Halfhand originally picked Jon primarily because of Ghost. In the prologue of GoT we see rangers hunting Wildlings and dying at the hands of the White Walkers and there have been steady and consistent reminders of that threat since. The Halfhand seems to in touch with the supernatural to not be aware of a connection that Mormont openly stated.

Oh that Mormont line is good, I'd forgotten that.

I imagine some of Jon's past actions reflected positively on him as a choice too but one of the first things choices they make on the ranging is fire or no fire (The duality of fire and darkness seem to yet another commentary on Mel's half rotten onion.). As readers we know the choice is fire if you're worried about wights and no fire if your concern is Wildlings. So I think Qhorin's initial choice of Jon was about Ghost as a way to mitigate the threat of the Others.

Excellent point, Melisandre says that fire is life in Davos II which is before Jon V, so again we have a more sophisticated/better handling of the situation and generally a rounder view of the world than Melisandre's blinkered vision - but then of course she's set up as somebody at a disadvantage to reality - she starts to sepak about stone dragons being woken after we've seen that happen on the Dothraki sea.

The other rangers with him all have a reputation among the Wildlings and the possibility that they could switch sides was probably lost years ago. Jon is new so it is an option for him. This may have been in the Halfhand's awareness as a vague possibility from the start but probably didn't take shape until Jon spared Ygritte. Part of the test in letting Jon choose was likely about seeing whether or not Jon was suited for such a mission.

I like that. Qhorin's leadership then is about keeping as many options open as possible. Hence also his not telling Jon what to do.

I had a similar thought about the five. Mormont and his officers were quite confident of the ability of 300 nightswatchmen to cut the entire Wildling population to shreds on the march - even though this would cost them their lives. Of course Qhorin couldn't know that they would be pursued by 14, 28, or 56 Wildlings (or maybe he does, 14 is a fairly reasonably sized group for one person to command, perhaps already a little on the big size, just thinking of spans of control and that kind of thing - the Roman's liked squads of eight, squads and sections in modern armies tend to be between 8 and 14 too). I suppose Qhorin felt that standing and fighting was riskier than his other options.

...I like the duality of his actions in that they prepare Jon for his mission and himself for death. The vows recital is an important reminder to Jon but also reads like Qhorin asking Jon to pray with him as a man afraid of dying might do when the end is near...

OK, I read that differently, just as trapping Jon so he would have to obey the order to turncloak

In general I think this is a particularly interesting chapter because the POV we see here will be entirely reversed come Dance with Dragons. Jon will be in Qhorin's knowledgeable and decision making capacity and he will share greater and lesser bits of information with various subordinates much like we see him limit the information he shares with Jon. The situation this small ranging faces here is a bit of a microcosm for the overall circumstances the Watch finds themselves in and Jon will choose a similar resolution in joining with the Wildlings. How much of Jon's reaction as a subordinate to Qhorin here can be applied to the Watch later when Jon is in Qhorin's shoes as leader? Obviously not Marsh but what about the rangers? Something to keep in mind for the future...

I like that and the point about Val. Qhorin come through as an important role model in several ways. One way we haven't mentioned is acceptance - he accepts the fact of warging and trees having eyes and so on. Most people we see are simply terrified of this as a possibility.

...1. Death is easy, life is complicated. Throughout the series, we see that death is liberating for so many characters. The most powerful jutaposition is RW aftermath, and dead Robb/Lady Stoneheart opposition. While Robb is beyond any sufferings, LS lingers in pain and darkness. The horror she, as Cat, has survived made of her monster who is just a shade of who previously was. Then we have Ned/Sansa opposition, where Ned is freed by death, and Sansa trapped by her life that brought her so many sufferings and so much unhappiness and tears. And finally, we come to Jon...

Mladen, I'm always plotting.

And what do the Faceless Men say 'all men must serve', which ties into the death as freedom idea. Butterbumps has a big conception built around that of how the wights and the people resurrected by the R'hlloristas tend in that direction - denying people the freedom of death and the return to the natural world (as experienced by Varamyr Sixskins in the ADWD prologue) and obliging them instead to serve further. I believe noted wise man Dolorous Edd also comments upon the phenomena at some stage too.

[Ragnorak]

...

2. Moon imagery. Just like in the last chapter of AGOT, where the moon imagery was strong, and there I connected it with Stark blood in Jon, and powerful connection between wolves and moon, here we can do the same. Moon is rising, all around is snow, and Jon has another part to play, by Qhorin. Whether Qhorin counted Jon will be spared because of killing him, his Stark roots, being a warg, or simply because of Jon's mercy, it is unknown. Probably it has to do with all of it. But when Ygritte makes clear who he is - Bastard of Winterfell (curiously in the show, she says blood of Benjen Stark, as it has some deeper importance. Just to mention, don't know whether is relevant though). But, the moon seems to have liberating effect on Jon's storyarc. First time, it was about running from NW to his family, and this time he is about to join wildlings. In both cases, moon is strongly associated with Starks.

...

There is a lot of moon imagery in the Stark POVs and water imagery too. Here we have them intertwined with the moon being seen through the waterfall. I don't really have a unified theme that satisfactorily ties them together. Maybe I'm looking too specifically and it is more about "the pack" like Ghost looking up at the moon last chapter and longing for his separated siblings. The water sometimes has fairly specific meaning like in Arya there is a theme that ties her to rivers and the Riverlands. Water is the source of snow and therefore in the waning Summer and Autumn is a herald for snow-- Winter is coming. The giant waterfall Ghost sees does bring to mind the Vale and Alyssa's tears so the scene offers some potential parallels for a possible future scene where Bran reaches out to Sansa in the Vale for her first conscious warging experience. The moon imagery feels right when it is used but I still can't come up with an overarching metaphor or unifying theme outside of an instinctual beacon for the call of family for the Stark pack.

OK, I read that differently, just as trapping Jon so he would have to obey the order to turncloak

I agree that is what Qhorin is doing with Jon. He is also marrying the act to the vow to redirect Jon's future guilt and second thoughts to the vow as well as owning the responsibility for it by making it a command. "I command it" implicitly echoes back to Ygritte-- I gave you the choice there but I'm not giving you that choice here. In doing so he is preparing Jon to be his own executioner-- effectively signing his own death warrant. I think reciting the vows is something Qhorin is doing for himself as well. The vows are usually said in religious setting either before a sept or a Heart Tree. Out here in the Haunted Forest there is an aspect of each of them standing in as a Heart Tree for the others vow.

I had a similar thought about the five. Mormont and his officers were quite confident of the ability of 300 nightswatchmen to cut the entire Wildling population to shreds on the march - even though this would cost them their lives. Of course Qhorin couldn't know that they would be pursued by 14, 28, or 56 Wildlings (or maybe he does, 14 is a fairly reasonably sized group for one person to command, perhaps already a little on the big size, just thinking of spans of control and that kind of thing - the Roman's liked squads of eight, squads and sections in modern armies tend to be between 8 and 14 too). I suppose Qhorin felt that standing and fighting was riskier than his other options.

There is a semi-famous historical battle where 300 soldiers survived and fell back in a controlled fashion because they held rank while the rest of their army was crushed as they broke rank. They were faced with thousands though some of the opposing force was mopping up their comrades who broke. I think it was a Roman Era thing but the memory isn't what it used to be. It is less noteworthy than other such feats because they didn't win-- they just lived. It is a classic example of the value of discipline against overwhelming numbers. I think casualty rates before breaking are something like 1-3% and can jump to 25% after breaking but I don't recall the source for that. Even if I'm off in my recollections the overall implications those numbers hold regarding the value of discipline in battle is accurate.

I suspect that the 5 of them could have retreated and lived if they fled southwest toward the Shadow Tower or east circling around the Fist and then turning south for Castle Black. Retreating is not always a defeat. It is a choice to trade land for time. The problem is that the success of this ranging depends upon getting word to Mormont (so he can get word back to the Wall by raven) before the Wildlings bring him the news themselves so time is on the Wildling's side. So Qhorin seems to have chosen the mission over survival from the time he asked Dalbridge to hold the pass. It isn't really a surprise as he laid all this out for Mormont

“I am loath to risk more men.”

“We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm?..."

“I see no other choice,” he conceded, “but if you do not return…”

“Someone will come down out of the Frostfangs, my lord,” the ranger said. “If us, all well and good. If not, it will be Mance Rayder, and you sit square in his path. He cannot march south and leave you behind, to follow and harry his rear. He must attack. This is a strong place.”

“Not that strong,” said Mormont.

“Belike we shall all die, then. Our dying will buy time for our brothers on the Wall. Time to garrison the empty castles and freeze shut the gates, time to summon lords and kings to their aid, time to hone their axes and repair their catapults. Our lives will be coin well spent.”

Rereading that it strikes me that "living" to make it back to Mormont is just a delayed death in his mind. Once Jon relayed what Ghost saw Qhorin probably saw every man at the Fist as a Dalbridge holding the pass.

[Mladen]

There is a lot of moon imagery in the Stark POVs and water imagery too. Here we have them intertwined with the moon being seen through the waterfall. I don't really have a unified theme that satisfactorily ties them together. Maybe I'm looking too specifically and it is more about "the pack" like Ghost looking up at the moon last chapter and longing for his separated siblings. The water sometimes has fairly specific meaning like in Arya there is a theme that ties her to rivers and the Riverlands. Water is the source of snow and therefore in the waning Summer and Autumn is a herald for snow-- Winter is coming. The giant waterfall Ghost sees does bring to mind the Vale and Alyssa's tears so the scene offers some potential parallels for a possible future scene where Bran reaches out to Sansa in the Vale for her first conscious warging experience. The moon imagery feels right when it is used but I still can't come up with an overarching metaphor or unifying theme outside of an instinctual beacon for the call of family for the Stark pack.

Due to my interest in connection between wolf motifs and moon imagery, I would say that moon, or lack of it functions as waking point for Starks. Some sort of werewolf connection here, where wolf is awakened by the presence of the moon.

1. Jon - we had full moon, and lot of moon imagery in his last chapter of AGOT when he wanted to abandon NW to help his brother (we have Stark awakening)

2. Sansa - Gates of the Moon, as location with Godswood, and location many of us believe will be the place of Sansa's resurrection of warging abilities thus returning, in that way, to her Stark roots

3. Arya - in Braavos, she goes to the HoBaW only when there is no moon, symbolizing that without moon, the Stark in her is lost, and FM takes charge, so to speak.

As for Bran and Rickon, I'll have to look before I get something. But, you are not wrong, these connections might be tenuous, and I could be wrong, but somehow everytime I imagine Sansa in Godswood, I imagine there is a moonlight, although in some occasions there is no mention of it.

[Lummel]

The one thing that stands out for me about the moon is magic time - and this Mladen is where Bran fits in, Bran III ADWD how the sense of passing time is communicated by Bran noticing the different phases of the moon.

Almost everything written about the moon in this part of the board is crackpot, so I'm tempted to get cracking too and point to a link via the number thirteen to the Night's King, but you all know that moon obsession is lunacy don't you? ;)

Perhaps better to crunch the newly formed ice in that stream bed and point to the descriptions of nature in this chapter which tie in to the rich nature descriptions throughout the Jon ACOK chapters. Bare branches from a dead tree. Gloomy pine forests. shallow rivers (brother of Brynden?) that have no names. A moon lit ribbon of stream (a transformed landscape like the frost at Craster's).

I also have always liked that the Wildlings come boiling over the slope at the end of the chapter. I'm not sure quite how one boils over a slope - presumably you jump up and down a bit - but it sounds good!

ETA - any other likes or dislikes about this chapter or those ACOK - particularly from you lurkers, you've got to earn your right to lurk with the odd comment and opinion you know ;) . These chapters don't seem to excite a lot of comment generally in Jon discussions, what's that all about? Are we missing something? Is the commentary on other POV chapters too subtle? Or something we overlook because there is too much plot going on?

[Mladen]

The one thing that stands out for me about the moon is magic time - and this Mladen is where Bran fits in, Bran III ADWD how the sense of passing time is communicated by Bran noticing the different phases of the moon.

I am so ignorant when it comes to Bran. Honestly, if I am not this busy, I would start a reread just to catch up with all the details, foreshadowings, tidbits of his POVs.

Since we talk about the time, what is wolf hour? Midnight, dusk... I want to know the quantity of moonlight in moon hour, not that has any matter since moon has phases and doesn't change over the course of one night.

ETA - any other likes or dislikes about this chapter or those ACOK - particularly from you lurkers, you've got to earn your right to lurk with the odd comment and opinion you know ;) . These chapters don't seem to excite a lot of comment generally in Jon discussions, what's that all about? Are we missing something? Is the commentary on other POV chapters too subtle? Or something we overlook because there is too much plot going on?

Ah, the eternal question... Was it enough, have i missed anything or have I overanalyzed it so they don't have anything to add. Don't worry, I doubt it's up to you, it's agreat analysis. It's summer, people are on vacations, and all threads are slower these days. Once discussion moves, it moves... You just wait and one moment it will happen.

I will come later with the opinion about those nature images...

[Lummel]

...Since we talk about the time, what is wolf hour? Midnight, dusk... I want to know the quantity of moonlight in moon hour, not that has any matter since moon has phases and doesn't change over the course of one night...

Wikipedia says the hour of the wolf is between 3AM and 5AM. Personally I count that as two hours. Also I don't know if Wikipedia is available on the weirnet.

[Julian Rayne]

ETA - any other likes or dislikes about this chapter or those ACOK - particularly from you lurkers, you've got to earn your right to lurk with the odd comment and opinion you know ;) . These chapters don't seem to excite a lot of comment generally in Jon discussions, what's that all about? Are we missing something? Is the commentary on other POV chapters too subtle? Or something we overlook because there is too much plot going on?

I rarely comment because I rarely have anything valuable to add. But I will say that these Jon chapters are among my favorites in the entire series. Magic beyond the Wall indeed.

[Lummel]

I rarely comment because I rarely have anything valuable to add. But I will say that these Jon chapters are among my favorites in the entire series. Magic beyond the Wall indeed.

I find that very interesting. I'm not sure I would have picked these chapters as favourites - why are they so stand out for you?

[Lady Arya's Song]

I am lurking and following along. I love these chapters with Jon and Quorhin but to be honest, I am dealing with some sort of grief in regard to Jon Snow's future as my favorite character. I made the mistake of looking at a Norse mythology blog that predicts Jon will turn very dark and now I am worried for my favorite character's character. Many seem to think Jon is going to become a very gray or dark figure. I realize George R.R. Martin is the author and he will determine the story line but somehow after four rereads Jon Snow has become a character I absolutely love and I see him as very honorable and George has written him showing his willingness to give up things for his siblings, and his ideas for the future of the NW, his dedication to his men...such a good character. I am just dealing with being bummed that Mr. Martin might turn him all upside down.

Lummel, you do an amazing job and I just love the religious references that so many of you find in these chapters. Back to lurkdom.

[Mark Antony]

ETA - any other likes or dislikes about this chapter or those ACOK - particularly from you lurkers, you've got to earn your right to lurk with the odd comment and opinion you know ;) . These chapters don't seem to excite a lot of comment generally in Jon discussions, what's that all about? Are we missing something? Is the commentary on other POV chapters too subtle? Or something we overlook because there is too much plot going on?

I loved Jons final ACOK chapter so much. Although I pretty much enjoyed all his chapters after he groups up with the Halfhand, It's this one that it feels like something actually finally happens. I love the foreboding tone of the first half of the chapter leading up to the fight, Everything Qhorin says just jumps out on a re-read and the actual fight itself is great. Can't wait for you guys to continue on to ASOS. Jon meeting The Mance is one of my favorite scenes/chapters. Back to lurking.

[Blede]

ETA - any other likes or dislikes about this chapter or those ACOK - particularly from you lurkers, you've got to earn your right to lurk with the odd comment and opinion you know ;) . These chapters don't seem to excite a lot of comment generally in Jon discussions, what's that all about? Are we missing something? Is the commentary on other POV chapters too subtle? Or something we overlook because there is too much plot going on?

As Julian Rayne said, these chapters are about the magic beyond the Wall... which is the very thing I I find least interesting in the whole series (Jon's and Daenerys's arcs are the only parts of ACOK I didn't like, because of they are heavily based around magic). For me Jon's story became mildly interesting in ASOS, and very interesting after the battle of Castle Black at the end of ASOS, the same with Dany's (it only became interesting in ASOS), while Bran's became my least favorite parts of the books from ASOS onwards (basically the minute he began his quest for the three-eyed crow). I mainly got hooked with the series for the intrigue, the politics, and the cronic backstabbing, as the majority of the readers did I think. The more magic there is, less interested I become (at least for now, maybe in the future when the Others storyline advances I will start to take an interest in it, right now it's just a boring sidestory).

Back to lurking anyway, I eagerly wait the reread of the ASOS chapters.

[Lummel]

...I am dealing with some sort of grief in regard to Jon Snow's future as my favorite character. I made the mistake of looking at a Norse mythology blog that predicts Jon will turn very dark and now I am worried for my favorite character's character...

Have you got a link for that? It could be something to add to the mix. I wouldn't grieve too much, that blogger is only guessing just as the rest of us are.

[Lykos]

I think Lady Arya is talking about this blog.

It shows the power of a good presentation (nice layout and good pictures), sadly the author isn´t just guessing about ASoIaF but also making some very daring speculations about the meaning of norse myths without telling us so. By comparison I preferred BrosbeforeSnows´ thread (pruned away), since he gave at least a nice intro how one should be carefull to equate the story one to one with mythology before doing exactly that.

[Julian Rayne]

I find that very interesting. I'm not sure I would have picked these chapters as favourites - why are they so stand out for you?

Because I'm coming at these books as a fantasy fan. I know they're praised for all the political intrigue and stuff, but for me they're fantasy books with the politics tacked on. And mind you I'm very aware that my view is my view only and no more valid than any other.

The North, the Wildlings, the Others, the Children of the Forest, the exploration of the last remnants of Westeros as it was before humans came, Old Nan's stories, the sense of deep-history, all these things are what I read these books for. Plus I love the "undead in a frozen wilderness" tropes. Northrend, Skyrim, beyond the Wall are much more appealing to me than Durotar, Vvardenfell and the Dothrakhi Sea. So Jon and Bran's story lines, especially the portions that happen beyond the Wall, are what I love the best. The only chapter that come close for me is AGoT:Bran III.

And the writing here is magnificent. The background, the ambiance is perfection. I believe that GRRM has also published several horror stories and his expertise shows. From the AGoT:0 onward I keep getting shivers down my neck whenever we're beyond the Wall. And not because of Wildlings. It's not something I can verbalize really.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Thank you Lykos for posting the blog link. I still do not know how to do that. The only good thing for me that came from that blog was it forced me to go read up on Norse mythology to see how the poster arrived at his conclusions. I disagree with some of his predictions but the site is very well laid out and well written. After the Red Wedding and the beheading of Ned I am at the point of paranoid when it comes to my favorite characters! I love the north and the Starks, its hard to see them continually being on the losing end in the story. Jon Snow as Surtr just did not make my day!

[Julian Rayne]

I think that while the author has undoubtedly been influenced by many sources, making predictions that rely on one-to-one correspondences is somewhat futile. Whether it's Norse mythology or the Wars of the Roses.

[Mladen]

I think that while the author has undoubtedly been influenced by many sources, making predictions that rely on one-to-one correspondences is somewhat futile. Whether it's Norse mythology or the Wars of the Roses.

I agree. Someone asked GRRM about Robert being Henry VIII, due to whoring and obesety, and he said no character has its direct historical counterpart, thet none of them is completely taken from history and that it would be wrong to see them. For instance, in Sansa's story there are too many motifs and parallels that it is impossieble to determine one source.

[Isildur's Mane]

Hi everybody,

I'm still following along when I can and reading everybody's wonderful posts, I just haven't had the time to reread the books or formulate my thoughts into posts... It's a bummer because Jon is my favourite character. Hopefully it will be a bit quieter at the end of the week for me.

Just wanted to say, keep up the good work!

[Elba the Intoner]

Well that thought Elba leds us nicely into our final chapter of ACOK!

Glad I could be of help Lummel. Great write up!

So, to add to my Qhorin as mystical guide theory, this exchange here really stuck out for me:

"Are you a man of the Night's Watch?"

"Yes, but -"

"There is no but, Jon Snow. You are, or you are not."

(bold is my my emphasis)

This calls to mind an exchange between Yoda and Luke Skywalker when Luke is training with Yoda on Degobah and trying to raise his ship from the water where it crashed. Luke says, "I'll try" and Yoda says, "No. Do or do not. There is no try." (I hope I'm remembering this correctly as it's been a while since I've seen it but I was a big Star Wars geek when I was younger so I think this is correct). This is almost identical advice.

Also, Jon's eating the horse meat is similar to when Dany had to eat the horse blood and meat as part of her initiation with the Dothraki. She knew she could not throw it up and Jon willfully keeps it down too. Also, the silver references suggest a commonality with Dany too and Jon refers to Qhorin's long grey braid swinging slowly with the motion of the horse which reminds me of Drogo's braid.

"The tumbling waters shone silver in the moonlight." Both sides of Jon's heritage (assuming R+L=J) are in force here.

ETA So we know that Ebben, Dalbridge and Qhorin don't make it back to Mormont but what about Stone Snake? I can't remember if we ever find out what happened to him.

[Julian Rayne]

ETA So we know that Ebben, Dalbridge and Qhorin don't make it back to Mormont but what about Stone Snake? I can't remember if we ever find out what happened to him.

I don't think he's ever mentioned again.