The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Lyanna Stark]

over a wind eaten bridge of natural stone with nothing but sky to either side. Eagles nested in the heights

This reminds me of the stone bridge on the way to the Eyrie, and this could be another connection between Jon and Sansa and the switching of their roles.

I agree. Interestingly, Jon thinks of Bran as a source of courage while Sansa desides to be "bastard brave" and the only bastard she knows to model herself on is Jon.

[Ragnorak]

Qhorin's toleration of Jon's refusal to execute Ygritte is unrealistic, IMHO. Qhorin is not a sadist, but we do learn that he has tortured captured wildlings for information, and could expect the same fate if he fell into their hands. It simply wouldn't be safe to let Ygritte live, in their situation. And, an experienced ranger like Qhorin would surely do the job himself. He'd know that a newly-recruited teenage boy, however skilled at arms, would find it impossible to kill a teenage girl in cold blood.

This topic sort of bridges chapters because next chapter (or the one after?) they openly discuss the choice. Qhorin seems to be a man resigned to die on this mission though it doesn't stop him from pulling out all the stops to survive. Had Jon killed Ygritte the option of having him go over to the Wildlings wouldn't really have been there. There would be no Ygritte to vouch for him and his choice to kill her would have been a sign that he wasn't the right man for such a task.

I find the choice interesting from a mentorship point of view. The Halfhand gambles a lot of potential outcome on putting the choice in Jon's hands. Part of that is to learn what kind of a tool he has in Jon but the at the other end of the spectrum is willingly giving up control of some of the variables in the scenario. Much later as Jon deals with Marsh and Co. as LC I think we could look back and see some of Qhorin's influence. Truly knowing your men involves giving them a certain freedom to act. In Arya we see Harwin choose the Brotherhood over his old Stark ties, in Sansa we see Clegane choose to abandon Joffrey in the riot to save Sansa. These are very telling moments about these characters.

Cat advises Robb to assign Roose over the Greatjon because of his more cautious nature. It is another "know your men" moment. Robb would have been far better off if he had the opportunity to give Roose a Ygritte choice so that he might better learn who Roose truly is before making that choice. Robb had no such luxury, but pondering the comparison helps highlight Jon's opportunities to prepare for command. Overall my take is in line with Winterfellian's and I see it as an important step in Jon's evolution to choose to include the Wildlings in the realms of men and another key mentorship moment.

Fire Eater, very nice job on the greater application of the Bael story. The Baelor Breakspear stuff is an especially nice catch.

Lyanna, I like the Sandor/Sansa dagger sexual moment parallel. I'm pleasantly surprised to find the Sansa items subtly sprinkled throughout-- the Bael parallel, the parental mountain, the looking to siblings for courage, the marveling at the magical beauty Winter brings to the world. We noted the surrogate father theme in Jon especially surrounding his getting Longclaw. While the mountain symbol is swapped between father and mother with their two climbing experiences, Sansa has surrogate fathers (but no mothers) in her story too. Cersei and the QoT are never really seen as replacement maternal figures even if Sansa mused about Margaery orMyrcella as surrogate sisters. She does mistake Sandor for Ned in GoT, Joffrey boasts of being her father during the Tyrion wedding and Littlefinger is clearly trying to be a surrogate father. Except for Sandor, Sansa's father replacements are highly negative figures while Jon's are very positive. I think this points to Ned being important in both their stories. It seems to me that Sansa and Jon are the two thematic heirs to The Ned's mantle.

I'm also glad you brought up the Ashara allusion to the woman throwing herself from the tower. I was wondering if the Bael theme could have applications to her backstory. Later we'll get Arianne as a literal princess in a tower, Lady Hornwood locked in a tower, Cat and Sansa were both effectively locked in towers too, plus the historical bit of Baelor the Blessed's two sisters (another potential Bael-name.) I can't help but wonder if there's a deliberate fairly tale commentary going on. I'd need to ponder it more but I suspect there's something to be gleaned from all those women in towers.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ragnorak,

That is a really good explanation of Qhorin's lines of thinking. I've often wondered myself why he'd take Jon with him and then not punish him harshly for the Ygritte scenario.

Some other small tidbits from the chapter before this regarding Jon's parentage.

"I am no lordling. Only a brother of the Night's Watch. I knew Lord Eddard, yes. And his father before him."

Jon had to hurry his steps to keep up with Qhorin's long strides. "Lord Rickard died before I was born."

And yes indeed, Rickard died before Jon was born and in a way, he died *because* Jon was about to be born and because Jon's parents legged it.

Then more Rhaegar colours:

The wind swirled about them, stirring their black cloaks and sending a scatter of red cinders flying from the fire.

[The Sleeper]

Bael's song points out the crypts of Winterfell as a hiding spot underneath someone's own feet while looking everywhere else, forshadowing Bran hiding from Theon there while the hunting party was searching for him through the woods.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

There are a lot of similarities with the descent from the Eyrie, but Jon's ascent on the Skirling Pass reminds me mostly of Sansa's descent from the Red Keep:

Sansa dared not look down. She kept her eyes on the face of the cliff, making certain of each step before reaching for the next. The stone was rough and cold. Sometimes she could feel her fingers slipping, and the handholds were not as evenly spaced as she would have liked. The bells would not stop ringing. Before she was halfway down her arms were trembling and she knew that she was going to fall. One more step, she told herself, one more step. She had to keep moving. If she stopped, she would never start again, and dawn would find her still clinging to the cliff, frozen in fear. One more step, and one more step.

The quoted part feels to me like a summary of Jon's climb, regarding their feelings and the way they use to deal with their fear - one step at a time.

[Winterfellian]

Jon’s two killings

I think that Jon is defined in this chapter by 2 killings- the one he performed and the one he refused to do. There is a choice behind these 2 killings that I think is worth exploring.

The chapter begins by leading us into a transcendent event in every man’s life- his first killing. In a world like Westeros, where the roles of men and woman are so defined we can see fights or combats as the male equivalent for childbirth as it initiates a boy/man into the power of life and death. Like Jon says, this is a moment he has been training for his whole life, just like a Lady is prepared to birth heirs for her husband. Both are bloody businesses in their own way.

It felt queer, picking a man to kill. Half the days of his life had been spent with sword and shield, training for this moment

It is worth mentioning that neither Qhorin nor any of the other rangers took away from Jon his choice or even his intellectual involvement when it came to the killing itself. It was Jon’s decision to step up; fully knowing what will be expected of him. He had a say from the choice to volunteer to the actual man he was going to slain.

As we move on, I think the significance of this event is built in the books through the imagery of the climbing scene. The track Jon is traveling towards what will be his first killing is narrow, treacherous, with abrupt turns and breaks, and it requires gloveless hands that will be bloodied even before the actual killing takes place:

His burned hand was stiffening up on him, and soon it began to ache. Then he ripped open his thumbnail somehow, and after that he left smears of blood wherever he put his hand.

Not that am an expert, but killing another person can have a powerful impact on the individual performing the deed. We see throughout the story what killing fellow men can do for people in examples such as Septon Meribald’s speech, Arya's story, Jaime’s own description of battle fever, Tyrion’s nightmares post Blackwater, etc. One way of coping with it is by distancing oneself from the target, which contributes to justify the action more easily. As the moment approaches Jon’s thoughts are concentrated on the family he left behind:

Even so, he did not think of the foes who were waiting for him, all unknowing, but of his brother (Bran) at Winterfell.

Did Robb felt this way before his first battle?

The focus on Bran and Robb suggests that Jon is relying on a form of emotional distance as his coping mechanism. The killing itself is closed range, which are oftentimes the most traumatic, because due to the closeness, the victim becomes more real and vivid. Despite Jon describing the actual event as happening in a heartbeat I see a marked difference between his approach and the one described by Jaime and approved by Tyrion later on:

How time seemed to blur and slow and even stop, how the past and the future vanished until there was nothing but that instant, how fear fled, and thought fled, and even your own body…you stop feeling, you stop thinking, you stop being you, there is only the fight, the foe, this men and then the next…you’re alive, and death is all around you

The bolded part suggests an exhilaration derived from battle and killing and proving stronger than the foe. It is all about forgetting everything, even oneself, to concentrate in the next foe, and then the next. But Jon never reached this point:

Jon slid his dirk free, grabbing the man by the hair and jabbing the point of the knife up under his chin as he reached for his-no, her-

His hand froze. “A girl”

When Jon reached for the next foe he was able to see past the adrenaline and the momentum of what was happening to recognize “a girl” which in turn led him to question himself. Is interesting that what follows has Jon debating himself and his identity (whether he is or not his father’s son), because I feel that by being able to stop when he did he remained himself. He didn’t stop being the person he was, Ned’s “son”. The Ygritte business only reaffirmsd this.

The second Killing

Jon mentions that training to kill a foe is something he had been doing half his life. Is what’s expected of him. And indeed, long before he began training he must have heard the stories and songs where the focus is on the hero defeating killing his enemies and played make believe fights with Robb. So what did prepare him to spare a foe as he did? Based on this, I think his second “killing” is even more significant than the first.

When Jon realized Ygritte to be a girl he immediately stopped; even if he had no such scruples when he believed her to be a sleeping wilding. Seeing that Jon was reluctant to finish the job Stonesnake attempts to dehumanize (another way to cope with killing) Ygritte:

A girl…

“A watcher” said Stonesnake. “A wilding. Finish her.”

However, is too late. For Jon, she was already a person. He then proceeded to look into her eyes and even tied her to the notion of family. But even after recognizing this, Jon takes the easy way out and leaves the choice to Ygritte:

“Will you yield?” he asked, giving the dirk half a turn. And if she doesn’t?

“I yield”

While Jon’s decision to take Ygritte as a captive instead of simply killing her might appear a little heroic on the surface, I think Jon wasn’t so much saving Ygritte, but saving himself from having to make the hard decision to end with her life. In a way, there’s a lot of selfishness in this particular call.

Once dawn and Qhorin arrives Jon can’t postpone his own decision anymore. He has a choice to make and he can't escape from it any longer. As Ragnorak pointed out in the analysis, what transpired between Jon and Ygritte is very much in the spirit of Ned’s lessons of justice. By the time of the execution Ygritte is even a more fleshed out person for Jon than the night before. He had look into her eyes and heard what she had to say. After doing so and with the belief that his superior officer expected him to kill her, Jon makes the choice- he refused to swing the sword and instead spares her life.

As an afterthought, it is curious to note what transpired when Theon, Robb and Jon tried to live up to Ned’s examples in their first executions. Theon and Robb use common steel words, while Jon used Valiryan steel. Theon made a complete mess of the execution; it took Robb several cuts to severe Rickard Karstark’s head; but Jon refuse to swing the sword.

[Julian Rayne]

The tidbit about Lord Stark being skinned by his bannerman was the clincher for me to believe that Ygritte's Bael story was true. Somehow it had exactly the opposite effect on Jon. Is he less well versed in Northern history than Jaime Lannister?

[Ragnorak]

Jon’s two killings

I think that Jon is defined in this chapter by 2 killings- the one he performed and the one he refused to do. There is a choice behind these 2 killings that I think is worth exploring.

<snip>

Very interesting observations.

The Theon parallels are complicated as he was perverting justice with his beheading scene. He had killed the miller's boys to cover the escape of Bran and Rickon, killed the men who knew they were the miller's boys and then carrying out "justice" to publicly assign blame for the killing of his own men that he had secretly conspired with Ramsay to do to keep the miller's boys secret. I imagine a close scrutiny of Bran's opening chapter might prove interesting with regard to Theon. His kicking the head and being the one to hand Ned Ice come to mind but nothing specific about those details jumps out.

I had always viewed Jon and Robb as having two beheading moments each-- Ygritte/Slynt and Osha/Karstark. Both have a Wildling woman they spare after she yields and a Lord they behead later.

“She’s a woman,” Robb said.

“A wildling,” Bran told him. “She said they should keep me alive so they could take me to Mance Rayder.”

“Do you have a name?” Robb asked her.

“Osha, as it please the lord,” she muttered sourly.

Maester Luwin stood. “We might do well to question her.”

Bran could see the relief on his brother’s face. “As you say, Maester. Wayn, bind her hands. She’ll come back to Winterfell with us… and live or die by the truths she gives us.”

Both women yield

Osha glanced around as Father’s guardsmen appeared from beneath the trees, steel in hand. She threw down her spear. “Mercy, m’lord,” she called to Robb.

“And this one?” Quent jerked a thumb toward Osha.

Robb walked over to her. She was a head taller than he was, but she dropped to her knees at his approach. “Give me my life, m’lord of Stark, and I am yours.”

and both note their captive is a woman and ask for her name. The main difference is that Luwin suggests questioning Osha which affords Robb the opportunity to avoid the choice while in Jon's case they say that questioning Wildlings is useless and tell him to make the choice. Osha will join the Starks and stay loyal while Jon will join the Wildlings and not stay loyal. Ygritte will help save Jon and Osha will help save Bran and Rickon. There are also the suggestions of burying and burning that are turned down for beheading and leaving the bodies for the crows and tossing over the cliff to leave the bodies for the shadowcats.

The choice aspect struck me here. For all Jon's thoughts on being sentenced to the Wall as a thing that will limit his options and life experiences, in many ways he has more agency than almost any other character. He chose the Wall initially and was given the freedom to choose to say the oath or not unlike most recruits. Mormont gave him the freedom to choose to flee the Wall, he was able to choose to go with Qhorin or not, to choose to be one of the two to climb the mountain or not. Being in the Nights Watch creates a sense that his options are limited but, especially when contrasted against the other Stark POVs, he has tremendous agency throughout his story. Later he'll be given the choice of Winterfell and Val and then as LC he gains tremendous agency. The only time Jon is truly deprived of agency is when Thorne and Slynt throw him in the ice cell and send him on the suicide mission to kill Mance.

I wonder about the connection between the bloodlust for killing and agency. Sandor, Arya, to a certain extent Jaime all share a certain trauma over lack of agency that manifests itself in the urge to kill and a certain pleasure in it. This isn't a universal truth as Sansa has no such bloodlust despite severe agency deprivation and Joffrey, Gregor and Ramsay have no agency issues yet still delight in the power of killing. This is a secondary thing to the disassociating oneself from empathetic emotions when it comes to the killing in battle that Winterfellian mentions but it seems to have a certain applicability in some characters.

The other curious thing I saw in looking at the Osha chapter was that the two men were rangers not Wildlings. Two rangers and two Wildling women set out to flee South. This puts Mance's later comment that there is more commerce between the Watch and the Wildlings into a new perspective.

“Mance be damned,” the big man cursed. “You want to go back there, Osha? More fool you. Think the white walkers will care if you have a hostage?”

Back in GoT we have two rangers certain the white walkers have returned. They likely used to stop in the village Osha and Hali were from and eventually conspired to leave. Whether they actually saw wights or Others is unknown but they all clearly believed the threat was real. In the prologue, in the Bran chapter with Osha, and in these Jon chapters with Qhorin we get a better sense of the rangers being more aware of the supernatural and get hints of the uneasy rapport they have with the Wildlings. We'll hear a good deal from Marsh and other Watch members who are not rangers throughout Jon but have relatively few moments where we hear things from the perspective of the rangers. That these two rangers could plot with two spearwives to flee South says a lot about the relationship between the rangers and the Wildlings.

The tidbit about Lord Stark being skinned by his bannerman was the clincher for me to believe that Ygritte's Bael story was true. Somehow it had exactly the opposite effect on Jon. Is he less well versed in Northern history than Jaime Lannister?

While a number of Starks were probably skinned by Boltons over the course of history I think it was the timing that tipped off Jon. A thousand years ago the Boltons swore allegiance to the Starks and 700 years ago they rebelled but lost in a four year long siege. That makes any Lord Stark being flayed to death by the Boltons in the last thousand years unlikely, but if it did happen it would certainly be a well known event. I'm not sure when Bael was king-beyond-the-wall (before Redbeard in Mormont's grandfather's grandfather's time but after the ancient tales of the Horned Lord) but it seems that Jon knows enough of the history to know that the story doesn't fit with any Stark dying at Bolton hands.

Ygritte calls it a bard's truth which I take to mean the real truth is in the lesson of the tale rather than the facts. It is also possible that, like Mance, Bael was inspired by an earlier tale and mixed an older legend in with his own exploits which he likely embellished anyway. The Boltons date back to the Age of Heroes so the actual events that inspired the tale could have taken place anytime after the Pact. We see modern tales that are adaptations of Greek plays and myths. Beauty and the Beast, which Martin is fond of, has had a long and interesting literary evolution. The Brandon in Ygritte's timeline need not be the factually correct Brandon for the tale to have a truth or even a basis in actual historical events.

[Winterfellian]

The choice aspect struck me here. For all Jon's thoughts on being sentenced to the Wall as a thing that will limit his options and life experiences, in many ways he has more agency than almost any other character. He chose the Wall initially and was given the freedom to choose to say the oath or not unlike most recruits. Mormont gave him the freedom to choose to flee the Wall, he was able to choose to go with Qhorin or not, to choose to be one of the two to climb the mountain or not. Being in the Nights Watch creates a sense that his options are limited but, especially when contrasted against the other Stark POVs, he has tremendous agency throughout his story. Later he'll be given the choice of Winterfell and Val and then as LC he gains tremendous agency. The only time Jon is truly deprived of agency is when Thorne and Slynt throw him in the ice cell and send him on the suicide mission to kill Mance.

I think this is a point that comes back again after Jon is elected LC. There apears to be an interesting paradox in all this. Without realizing it, Jon had more agency as a mere steward who had to answer to officers of higher rank than he did once he gets elected LC and is technically at the head of the NW's organization. Power doesn't translate into agency. The troubles arising when the person in power exerts his/her own agency over the obligations due to his/her subjects is something that we see time and time again in ASOIAF.

On other note, I really like the Osha-Ygritte comparisons you made. I guess that for me there's something of a ceremonial aspect in the Jon-Ygritte scene that escaped me when I read the one between Osha and Robb. I'll reread in any case.

[Lummel]

This is a surprisingly interesting chapter considering that it is so short. Many fine observations above. In addition I thought I'd say that the chapter is divided into three - starting Iliad style in the middle of the action, then a long flashback, then back to the contemporary action.

The Bael the Bard story is a Persephone and Hades story, in itself the ur-Geschichte / prototype for Sansa's story, Bran's story, Arya's Story... the beloved child disappears and with it the continuity of life. It lies dormant as though dead, but breaks forth from with the earth with new life. Death and rebirth - something that is tightly bound with Jon's story too.

Ragnorak tied into the descriptions of nature in the frostfangs to Sansa, but coming to this reread after Learning to Lead what struck me was Jon's appreciation and apparent enjoyment of the world here compared with his later depression (if I may be so bold as to state that diagnosis despite a total lack of medical training on my own part). Without a doubt though Jon here is the embodiment of the chivalric hero from a Sansa style tale...volunteering to go with Qhorin, volunteering despite the one prior experience of climbing to go with Stonesnake, sparing the fair maiden.

The echo of Bran I AGOT when Jon is climbing wishing he had Bran's bravery a man can only be brave when he's afraid and all that - the nexus of family connections and values is extremely tight in this little chapter. This is something I've really paid much attention to reading for myself, but there is a wealth of direct and indirect references to the family: mother, father, uncle, siblings and then to other POVs Tyrion and Davos. What can we say about this? That it serves to really tie the story together or that no man is an island entire of itself, everyman is a piece of the continent...and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.

Interesting again this point of how that moment of kindness may cost the others their lives but wins Jon his - another illustration of how close life and death are up there in the far north. It actually reminds me of Grushenka's story of the onion in Brothers Karamazov, but besides that Davos' onions saved Stannis' bacon life and won his social promotion, here doesn't it humanise the enemy for Jon? Although of course there is also the transferred and perhaps considering the later chapters not entirely appropriate feelings towards Arya to Ygritte!

The line about him being his father's son also stood out for me. I think we have to consider that in its dual aspect. The Rhaegar and The Ned. Not only does Jon believe that The Ned is his father but he was brought up with the The Ned as his father figure and the The Ned was also a man capable of deep compassion and mercy - actually that is something that we don't know about Rhaegar.

Final point about Qhorin - acceptance of fate, also leadership, Dalbridge and Stonesnake are both I believe older than him and more skilled in some ways but everybody defers to Qhorin even though he seems to have no formal rank - this is charisma - they, the followers, have invested him with leadership. Qhorin further more is seemingly deliberately setting out to test or push Jon through an obstacle course. He's put through tasks and into situations with little training and less guidance just to see how he will do. On the reread and with regard to Elba's comment this sharpens the Obi Wan, deliberate education of a leader feeling of this entire section.

[butterbumps!]

Sorry everyone for delaying—something came up and I didn’t have access for about a week. I’m back-tracking slightly to catalog some previous chapters that I think are important in terms of connecting the threads of Jon’s arc.

Intermediary chapters between Jon V-VI

Cat VI

This is when Cat is back at Riverrun, and Edmure goes out to give battle to Tywin. I’m pulling this chapter for 3 prominent Jon connections: 1. Cat’s empathy for Jon’s mother, 2. Musings on bastards in Westeros, 3. Roose’s reaction to news of Ramsay

I think that this following passage says much about Cat’s true feelings of Jon; she clearly does not hate him, and in her moments of worry finds herself empathetically considering what Jon’s mother might feel about him. I think this shows us that the critical factor in the Cat-Jon dynamic was distance; away from Jon and bereaved of Ned, she seems to have come to peace with this situation.

“Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing.” Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon’s mother, that shadowy secret love her husband

would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?

They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

This next passage offers a summary of reactions to bastardy (her musings here are partially inspired by a previous passage about Cersei’s children, whom she now knows to be bastards as well). Ned and Cortnay’s fierce defense of bastards stands in striking contrast to that of Roose’s toward Ramsay, she notes:

Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton’s bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past.

Lastly, the contents of the letter from Roose, written in response to news of Ramsay’s execution, reveals a bit of the nature of the Boltons, who will appear to be an immediate enemy to Jon by the end of DwD. To compensate for any “disturbances” his son’s behavior may have caused, he pledges extra results for Robb’s army (this is when he turns the Bloody Mummers at Harrenhal), and vociferously condemns Ramsay. The businesslike tone, rationalization of Ramsay’s “tainted blood,” and odd acceptance of Ramsay’s inevitable murder of future sons is all quite bizarre, to put it mildly.

He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. “A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so.” He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. “A fate he no doubt earned,” Bolton had written. “Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay’s nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived.”

Dany IV

This is the House of the Undying magical mystery tour. Because it offers clues of R+L, and is very much a roadmap of sorts, here is the abridged version:

Part 1: Through the doors

1. Naked woman sprawled, ravaged by 4 “rattish” men.

2. “Feast of corpses;” the wolf-head king looks to Dany “with mute appeal.”

3. House in Braavos with the lemon tree; Willem Darry is there, imploring her to come “home.”

4. Bronze doors open to the throne room where Aerys calls “Let him be king over charred bones and meat…king of ashes.”

5. Rhaegar and Elia’s room:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

6. Opening to the garden, where an ephemeral Pyat Pree tries to lure her astray.

7. Through false ebony and wierwood doors, the tempting Undying try to trick Dany a final time, promising knowledge.

Part 2: At the Undying

. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . .

Prelude:

1. Three fires you must light, one for life one for death, one to love

2. Three mounts you must ride, one to bed, one to dread, one to love

3. Three treasons you will know, once for blood, once for gold, once for love

Visions:

1. "Daughter of death"-- Viserys crowned, Rhaego grown, Rhaegar's death

2. "Slayer of lies"-- Red sword wielder who casts no shadow, cloth dragon on poles, stone beast taking flight from a tower

3. "Bride of fire"-- Silver horse trotting, Corpse on a prow, Blue flower growing in chink of ice

Headtrip:

1. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible.

2. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.

3. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow.

4. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.

5. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.

6. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

7. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!”

Intermediary chapters between Jon VI-VII

Only one chapter separates Jon VI and VII: Sansa IV. The structure of these chapters seems utterly purposeful in their placement, and the structure itself deserves a bit of analysis, because it seems Martin is playing on parallel “theme and variations” here.

In Jon VI, we saw Qhorin’s small party enter the Skirling Pass, we’re given the romantic tale of Bael the Bard, learn about “bard’s truths,” and see Jon spare Ygritte despite his belief that Qhorin wanted her killed for safety.

Sansa IV opens in the godswood of the castle, where Dontos promises Sansa that soon a ship will come, and he’ll spirit her away home. There is very much a parallel at play here: Dontos is planning to “pluck” the daughter of Winterfell for safe keeping, in a variation of the myth we previously heard. Beyond the “Bael” theme, both Dontos and Ygritte sell explanations to Sansa and Jon respectively, persuasively framed as “bard’s truths,” or at least “silly” songs.

When they part, Sansa decides to go to the roof to observe the city; she feels a stab of fear, and from the shadows, Sandor pulls her to safety. Sandor is wild, and goes into a tirade against those “true knights” Sansa so dearly believes in (and commits a bit of deicide too):

“Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing.”…… If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with.”

“True knights protect the weak.”

He snorted. “There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don’t ever believe any different.”

When Sandor leaves, Sansa refuses to accept that there is no rightness in the world: “There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can’t be lies.”

And indeed she’s right.

If the first half of Sansa IV is a theme and variation of Jon VI, the Sandor-Sansa interaction forebodes Jon VII. In Jon VII (forthcoming), Jon has his first wolf dream, speaking through a weirwood to Bran who is in the Winterfell Crypts (more Bael), giving us a sign that Sansa’s instinctive faith in the existence of gods is indeed correct.

Perhaps more poignantly, Sansa’s faith in “true knights” manifests songlessly in the brothers of Qhorin’s party. We see this small party of men knowingly conducting a suicide mission for the sake of protecting the realm, “wearing no crowns, taking no glory.” Most heartbreakingly, Squire Dalbridge will leave a request to give a carrot to his horse, and climbs the pass to hold back the wildlings in order to save the rest of the party. If Squire Dalbridge’s sacrifice, and the tasks of Qhorin’s party do not make “true knights,” nothing does.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Ohhh good stuff!

6. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

I feel this foreshadows Dany's return to Vaes Dothrak. Out of those "head trips" of hers, this is the one yet to happen. The Dosh Khaleen seem likely to deem her the true Stallion Who Mounts The World, and she rides with the greatest khalasar yet. (after getting rid of Jhago of course.)

I really liked the Jon/Sansa parallel here. Both are having their world views dissolve away, but something keeps them from letting go entirely. Jon's dream with Bran keeps his faith. Sansa doesnt want to believe there is no rightness. Her faith in Dontos and her faith that there are gods.

With Jon, however, the Old Gods materialized for him in the form of Bran's connection. This is right when Sansa believes that there still are gods. Perhaps Sansa will eventually be shown the Old Gods in a similar fashion? Probably through Bran? Perhaps this leads her to unmask herself from Alayne to Sansa Stark. (since i believe she will be the one to do her own unmasking.)

[Julian Rayne]

Jon's climb and his connections to his family. I couldn't help but think of Maia Stone. There's only the most tenuous of parallels between those two characters, but I feel as though there's something I'm not seeing clearly.

[Maia]

So, are we supposed to believe that Ned never had to execute a woman? Or hack a hand/digits off one for thievery/poaching? It is true that due to many reasons women don't become delinquent nearly as often as men, but neither do they have an option to join NW and avoid execution/mutilation in Westeros, like men do.

So, is the North some magical fairyland where women don't commit/aren't condemned of serious crimes ever? Or does the whole "do it by your own hand, look in their eyes, etc" not apply to them? I find it strange that Jon, an "old hand at justice" seemingly never had an occasion to see Ned behead a woman...

Re: gods, well... the old gods aren't really gods, are they?

I really want to know which king Dalbridge squired for and how he ended up at the wall as a common ranger. Shouldn't he have been an officer material, given his history?

P.S. I can only agree that from among the young leaders (Robb, Dany, Jon), Jon was privileged to have the most extensive opportunities to grow into his leadership, what with the lengthiest training, tons of great mentor figures, many chances to gain experience and confidence undertaking lower-level responsibilities before he found himself on top, lots and lots of agency...

[butterbumps!]

Jon VII

OVERVIEW

Qhorin’s party (Jon, Ebben, Squire Dalbridge, and Stonesnake) continue up the Skirling Pass. Qhorin stops the procession at an apex, just before the descent into the Milkwater valley; he believes that the march will be less risky by night, using the shadows as cover. During this hiatus, Jon approaches Qhorin, and they discuss Jon’s decision to spare Ygritte, wildling culture and Mance specifically. Qhorin reveals he hadn’t needed Ygritte killed, but had left Jon to “deal with her” as a test in order to learn more about him: “to lead men, you must know them.”

Jon goes down to sleep, seeking Ghost’s warmth, but the wolf goes off instead, seemingly to hunt. Asleep, Jon dreams of the direwolves, remembering the day the 6 were found, with sadness knowing only 5 are left. Suddenly, Brans voice calls to Jon through Ghost, who has reached a tiny weirwood growing out of rocks. Bran reaches out to Ghost, imploring Jon to open his third eye, and suddenly again Jon finds himself along a cliff overlooking the Milkwater. He takes a full inventory of what he sees: giants, mammoths, thousands of campfires, an “entire people come together.” Out of nowhere, an eagle descends on Ghost, causing Jon to jolt awake, feeling the pain of the talons that attacked the wolf.

Jon begins explaining his outburst, and Qhorin immediately heeds Jon’s description of his wolf dream very seriously. He coaxes a full description of the Milkwater camp, ending with Ebben’s ambiguous proclamation of “skin changer.” Jon’s not fully convinced that his dream was anything more than a dream, but even so, he is anxious about Ghost’s safety as they press on. They find Ghost, patch him, and Qhorin announces that they are to retreat immediately. When they return to the cliff where they had found Ygritte and co., Qhorin observes that “the right man” could buy time for the rest of the brothers by making a last stand from that vantage. By dawn, they hear the horns, signaling the end of Dalbridge’s stand, and the move of the wildlings.

OBSERVATIONS

The symbolic motif of this chapter seems to be “shadows,” and specifically, their association with safety and goodness:

• It was dark in the Skirling Pass. The great stone flanks of the mountains hid the sun for most of the day, so they rode in shadow, the breath of man and horse steaming in the cold air.
  
• Qhorin decreed that they would rest here until the shadows began to grow again. “Shadows are friends to men in black,” he said.
  
• “When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.”
  
• Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them.
  
• “Ghost, come,” he called, and the direwolf followed, a pale shadow moving through the night. ("pale shadow" is an interesting oxymoron, like Bran's "silent shout")
  

ANALYSIS

Jon’s confession, part 1

Jon works up his courage to face Qhorin and confess that he spared Ygritte. He opens the discussion by reminding the ranger that he hadn’t asked about it, and immediately reveals that Ygritte told him that Mance would accept him if he deserted the Watch. Jon also confesses that Ygritte claimed they were kin, and Qhorin admits that Stonesnake filled him in on the Bael story.

I think this is a case where Jon is trying to justify his reasons for sparing Ygritte in anticipation of disappointing Qhorin. He thinks that Qhorin ordered him to kill, so to mitigate Qhorin’s expected reaction, Jon broaches the topic by pointing out that if the situations were reversed, Mance would spare him, and that the wildlings and the Starks were of the same blood, and therefore, no different.

“friends as well as brothers:” Mance

At the mention of Bael, Jon’s confession is segued into a consideration of Mance; Qhorin knows the bard’s tale because Mance would sing it upon his return from rangings. Jon realizes that Qhorin and Mance used to be very close, but are now “sworn foes.” Curious, Jon asks about Mance’s desertion and time with the Watch, and it seems Qhorin understands the man very well.

Qhorin explains Mance’s desertion as stemming from his wild blood: “He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.”

We will get Mance’s reasons for leaving in aSoS, and his story will confirm the account Qhorin gives here. I think we should take both verbal accounts rather suspiciously, that is, I’ve long thought there was a reason—beyond crowns, women and freedom—that inspired Mance to desert and become king.

We’re going to see through Mance’s actions that he doesn’t in fact lack discipline, and upon leaving the Watch, essentially carried out NW business in terms of rallying everyone beyond the Wall to safety from the Others—something both Mormont and Jon come to understand must be done. In fact, back in aGoT, Osha tells Jon’s brothers that Mance had originally intended to fight the Others himself. I think there’s more here than the freedom accounts. I think the wilding blood Qhorin talks about is part of it, in so far as Mance knew what was coming, and feeling kinship to the wildlings that would be left behind, he wanted to save them; they’d never come to trust a Watchman, and so in order to rally them, he’d need to lead them as one of their own. Qhorin’s continuation might subtly suggest this is the case, as he speaks of the wildling’s lack of discipline and customs as less structured and organized—that is, showing us that without strong leadership, they could never defend themselves.

Jon’s confession part 2

Jon and Mance are being set up as foils—Jon began his confession by appealing to his kinship to the wildlings and the idea of reciprocity with Mance, who would spare him. We’re told of Mance’s alleged reasons for desertion—a woman, a crown, and “wild blood”/ NW adjacent business—which utterly foreshadows Jon XIII, DwD, where he “deserts” for Arya (a woman), becomes the wildling leader (a “crown”), and rallying the people he left behind/ NW adjacent business, all while Mance will be literally re-enacting the Bael saga. I wonder how much of Mance Qhorin sees in Jon, and whether some of his account has a didactic quality.

Jon sees an opening for his full confession about Ygritte when Qhorin mentions Mance’s inability to obey. Qhorin guesses that Jon spared her and asks why:

It was hard to put into words. “My father never used a headsman. He said he owed it to men he killed to look into their eyes and hear their last words. And when I looked into Ygritte’s eyes, I . . .” Jon stared down at his hands helplessly. “I know she was an enemy, but there was no evil in her.”

He had already put into words why he couldn’t see her as evil—kinship and reciprocity—and adds that he believed she was no longer a threat since he’d disarmed her.

Knowing your men

Qhorin goes on to explain that leaving Jon to take care of Ygritte was merely a judgment-neutral test in order to understand Jon better. He imparts the leadership advice that by knowing your men, you know how to get various jobs done most productively:

“When I want a mountain scaled, I call on Stonesnake. Should I need to put an arrow through the eye of some foe across a windy battlefield, I summon Squire Dalbridge. Ebben can make any man give up his secrets. To lead men you must know them, Jon Snow. I know more of you now than I did this morning.”

I wonder if Qhorin had been anticipating the need for a crow to go over to the wildlings as a spy from early on this ranging. He says that he knows Ygritte spoke the truth by revealing that Mance would accept Jon; he tests Jon to see what sort of man Jon is, crafted a situation that would put a wildling in Jon’s debt, and finds that Jon has a deal of empathy for the wildlings. If Stonesnake is the man you call to scale cliffs, then perhaps Jon is the man to infiltrate the wildling camp/ work with Mance?

Jon’s first big warging adventure

Jon falls asleep and begins to dream of direwolves. Dream begins with the memory of the day Jon and his brothers found the wolves, but it seems that the memory is Ghost’s. He feels a “deep ache” over the permanent loss of his sister (Lady), and the fact that he can no longer sense the others:

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

I bolded the most curious part, imo. Apparently, Ghost sits down and howls for his siblings. Ghost is supposedly mute, yet “his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound.”

One of Ghost/ Jon’s siblings hears the cry: Bran. Bran calls out to Jon from a slender weirwood growing in stone:

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

Bran smells like death because he’s hiding in the Winterfell crypts at this point. In the last chapter, we are given the Bael story, which seems to be a clue, here, that Bran is similarly hidden away amongst the dead, yet safe. This chapter has had a running theme of the safety of shadows, and good men coming from shadow (Qhorin and Mance are Shadow Tower men; Bran is coming from shadow to open Jon’s eye); I think this complements Mel and Davos’ recent discussion of light and dark (Davos II, just before Jon V if anyone’s curious).

When Bran reaches out and touches Ghost, they are sent to a precipice overlooking Mance’s hoarde. Jon takes inventory, and is separated from Ghost after Orell, trapped in his eagle, attacks the wolf.

The trees have eyes again

When Jon mentions it was a wolf dream, Qhorin takes heed and insists Jon reveal everything he saw. The brothers readily accept Jon’s vision as a warging experience of accurate intel gathering, and press on. Jon, however, is extremely confused. He doesn’t understand what he’d just experienced, rejects the possibility of skinchangers as an Old Nan tale, and can’t figure out why Bran smells of death.

The party presses on until they spot an eagle. Immediately afterward, Jon spies Ghost, injured as per his dream. They patch up Ghost, ready to continue, but Qhorin changes the plan. Ghost’s injuries confirm the veracity of Jon’s vision, confirms that the eagle they see is indeed a skinchanger, and Qhorin commands them to retreat as they have been spotted. I think Qhorin already knows how this script is going to play out, and knows which men are to play which part. When they get to the ledge where they found the wildlings last chapter, Qhorin commands Dalbridge to hold it to buy time. Dalbridge’s response—delivered unemotionally, I believe—is extremely sad:

The squire bowed his head. “Leave me as many arrows as you can spare, brothers.” He stroked his longbow. “And see my garron has an apple when you’re home. He’s earned it, poor beastie.”

He’s staying to die, Jon realized.

He accepts his role without complaint, and the horns that follow come dawn signal that he’s made his sacrifice.

Sansa, Jon, true knights, real gods

As I mentioned in my “intermediary chapters” post, Jon VI, Sansa IV, and Jon VII seem structured to directly complement each other. I think analysis of this is worthwhile on the various themes we see at play.

• Jon tumbles out of the shadows to kill Ygritte; Sandor swoops out of the shadows to stabilize Sansa
  
• Jon holds the knife to Ygritte’s throat; Sandor holds his sword at Sansa’s throat
  
• Ygritte relays the Bael story of the plucked Winterfell daughter; Dontos appeals to tales of chivalry in his intentions to pluck Winterfell’s daughter
  
• Bael hides the daughter in the shadows below Winterfell; Baelish will hide Sansa in plain sight at the Eyrie
  
• Sandor tells Sansa there are no gods; Jon’s dream makes it clear that the trees have eyes again
  
• Sandor insists that there are no true knights who protect the weak; Qhorin’s party are perhaps the “truest” knights we’ve seen save perhaps Brienne.
  

[butterbumps!]

P.S. I can only agree that from among the young leaders (Robb, Dany, Jon), Jon was privileged to have the most extensive opportunities to grow into his leadership, what with the lengthiest training, tons of great mentor figures, many chances to gain experience and confidence undertaking lower-level responsibilities before he found himself on top, lots and lots of agency...

ok. Jon was well educated. I doubt he received more education than Robb, who was trained since birth to become the Lord of Winterfell, but yea, Jon's been gleaning leadership lessons left and right. So when Jon accomplishes everything he does, it shouldn't strike anyone as "unrealistic" or "strained credulity" for a boy/ man his age, given that he's been so well prepared.

[Maia]

Well, Jon got extra education during his NW training and squiring for Mormont, as well as many more different mentors, so he had advantage on Robb education-wise, IMHO. As a result, he was able to grow into responsibility more organically than Robb.

And, of course, preparation only takes one so far. We have seen a lot of idiotic lord(ling)s, who all had proper noble education, and some of them much more experienced to boot...

P.S.

So did Ygritte play a role in NW scout party being spotted and relentlessly followed or was it all Orell/Varamyr? Not sure what we are supposed to think, here. Was it Qhorin's plan or contingency plan all along to sacrifice all these elite scouts to make it possible for Jon to go undercover with Mance, gambling on an unlikely chance that Jon might be able to escape?

[Ragnorak]

Really interesting stuff, Butterbumps.

Nice insightful stuff on the Cat observations.

Dany

The Dany/Jon connections are always a source of speculation covering the spectrum of marriage to enemies.

Visions:

1. "Daughter of death"-- Viserys crowned, Rhaego grown, Rhaegar's death

2. "Slayer of lies"-- Red sword wielder who casts no shadow, cloth dragon on poles, stone beast taking flight from a tower

3. "Bride of fire"-- Silver horse trotting, Corpse on a prow, Blue flower growing in chink of ice

In many of these the Dany connection is ancillary and symbolic or an indirect responsibility. In the Daughter of Death trio Viserys being crowned to death is really his own foolish doing though Dany was central to the event. Rhaego's death is closer to a direct result of her actions but still not something she overtly did. (Rhaegar being included has potential implications regarding how Rhaella's pregnancy might have influenced Rhaegar's choice to battle on the Trident based on the nature of Dany's connection to the other two death's in the list but that's entirely speculative.) The sense I get from this Daughter of Death list is one of the consequences of choices especially regarding leadership. Dany's choices in Slaver's Bay will result in significant death much of it unintended and undesired on her part. This is the nature of leadership and responsibility and fits well with the "blood on the hands" theme we see in Jon.

The Slayer of lies has Jon connections as well. The man with a red sword and no shadow seems to be Stannis who has already become intertwined with Jon's tale before Dany will ever cross his path. I imagine the cloth dragon is Aegon. Jon is a Targ heir in hiding much like Aegon at least from Dany's perspective. Assuming Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon that puts Jon as the juxtaposed authentic dragon. They both point to an intersection of Jon and Dany's stories. The stone beast could be a greyscale reference and the Shireen, Connington, and Illyrio's Serra are connected by that theme and seem poised to play a role in both Dany and Jon. It could also be a LF reference with his grandfather's Titan of Braavos sigil and his rather beast-like nature. With Sansa's unfolding story in the Vale it seems likely that both Jon and Dany will intersect there somehow. Mostly I see these three as hints of Jon and Dany intersecting at some point. Stannis as an AA figure who is a lie to be slain does tend to hint at Dany or Jon with his strong connection to these visions being the true AA candidate.

Bride of Fire is often taken as a Jon/Dany marriage indication with the blue flower and ice reference. Looking at the aspect we know best I would focus on the silver horse trotting. It was a wedding gift from Drogo but it was also the thing that gave Dany the courage and inspiration to survive the Dothraki Sea. One could read this as Drogo, Victarion and Jon as her three husbands but that leaves out Hizdar who we know she actually married. I see a theme involving the dragons. Her Silver gave her the strength and inspiration to find something within herself that eventually led to the birth of the three dragons. Victarion has the dragon horn designed to control dragons leading us to Jon as a warg and a Targ intertwined with Bran and Bloodraven to fulfill some other piece of the idea that Dany is "married" to fire through her dragon relationship rather than any husbands she may have. The Blue Flower in the ice is clearly a Jon reference, but again I think it is best understood through the known parallel to the symbolic importance of her Silver regardless of which final conclusion one reaches.

Sansa

This is that part I find most interesting. I think the big picture parallel is the rite of passage into adulthood. Sansa's flowering is the obvious mark of womanhood and I think this ranging is Jon's rite of passage into manhood. Sansa's flowering chapter is the one that falls in between the two Jon chapters. Jon's rite is marked by blood as well as he kills his first man (rekilling the wight may be combat experience but it is not the same as taking a life.) Both characters will also be thrust into roles of adult responsibility afterwards and rise to the challenge. Jon with killing the Halfhand and infiltrating the Wildlings and Sansa with rallying the women after a drunken Cersei leaves. Both will reluctantly join and sleep with the enemy, both will see Stannis fight beneath the walls of the place they call home, both attend a political marriage they have a role in enabling (LF/Lysa and Alys/Sigorn), both will sit behind secure walls hoping to stay out of the conflict that eventually draws them in. There are rather significant differences in the particulars but there are tremendous parallels in their stories.

The Hound and Sansa stand on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of knights. Sansa has a highly idealized view while Sandor holds a very jaded one. The two seem destined to influence each other to eventually reach a middle ground that Jon demonstrated last chapter-- killing Orell and letting Ygritte live.

“Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing.”

This really helps bring into focus just how blessed Jon was in terms of mentors. The Ned and the Halfhand afford him the opportunity to strike this middle ground and the Ygritte event gives him the opportunity to do for her what he failed to do for Gilly earlier. Sansa has a much harder road to reach a middle ground understanding of the harsh reality of knighthood. Her "mentor" Sandor has just as warped a view as she does while Jon has been prepared to understand this idea with Ned's guidance his whole life.

We see a similar nature of advice regarding love from Aemon and Cersei.

“Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

“So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.” ...

"We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

Jon has wise and benevolent mentors (Ned, Mormont, Halfhand, Aemon, Noye) compared to Sansa's flawed or self-serving ones-- hers is a world full of Thornes. In Jon we see much of the balanced understanding Sansa is trying to achieve play out along with aspects of her more idealized worldview even if the reality is more grey and ugly than she first envisioned. Even this early we see the naïve nature give way to certain truths like

She was afraid of Sandor Clegane… and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound’s ferocity.

We see an older Alys Karstark come to understand this duality in her own father and a Brienne who had this ferocity trained into her by her master-at-arms, but Sansa was younger than Alys and never trained like Brienne or brought along to see justice like Robb, Jon, and Bran.

I have to admire the craftsmanship in the writing that places Jon and Sansa's rites of passage as intertwined chapters and the subtlety in the commentary of having Sansa's own experiences make the Hound's words ring perfectly true while having Jon's surrounding chapters echo large parts of her inner idealism. As a parting thought I find it meaningful that Jon has a beheading scene in his rite of passage. The First Men justice and beheadings seems to be a strong theme in Sansa. The beheading chapter is where the wolves were found, Ned kills Lady himself in the spirit of this tradition, LF seems to mock the tradition with the dagger and his betrayal of Ned, Sansa witnesses Ned's beheading, The Hound brings up Ned's beheading in this discussion about true knights, Sansa wishes for a hero to behead Slynt (which Jon does,) and her Snow Winterfell scene has the beheading of the "giant."

Even placing Jon as a "true knight" playing out an epic tale worthy of the songs heralds a certain truth to Sansa's seemingly naïve beliefs. Cersei mocks her with:

“True knights.” The queen seemed to find that wonderfully amusing. “No doubt you’re right. So why don’t you just eat your broth like a good girl and wait for Symeon Star-Eyes and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight to come rescue you, sweetling. I’m sure it won’t be very long now.”

But it is Jaime, Cersei's very own Aemon the Dragonknight, that will dispatch Brienne to rescue Sansa later. We'll also see a cast of characters emerge that deliberately reenact the songs. Mance reenacting the Bael song to rescue the girl, Manderly reenacting the Rat Cook on the Freys and Boltons, and Big Bucket Wull marching through the blizzard to save The Ned's girl because men sing songs of such deeds. There's also Osha saving Bran and Rickon as well as Davos and his fake execution and upcoming attempt to rescue Rickon from Skagos that seem rather song-worthy endeavors. These later events make the juxtaposition of the Jon and Sansa chapters here all the more significant.

[butterbumps!]

Well, Jon got extra education during his NW training and squiring for Mormont, as well as many more different mentors, so he had advantage on Robb education-wise, IMHO. As a result, he was able to grow into responsibility more organically than Robb.

And, of course, preparation only takes one so far. We have seen a lot of idiotic lord(ling)s, who all had proper noble education, and some of them much more experienced to boot...

Maia, I'm not sure what your point is, but I am concerned, because this and the other post appear to be suggesting that you believe all of Jon's successes are handed to him, that he is utterly privileged and hasn't earned anything, and that when he will eventually succeed it's because it all just happened for him, through no virtue of his own ("organically" and such).

First, Jon's exceptional mentorship is one of the primary themes we are tracing throughout this project. No one is hiding the fact that Jon gets an exceptional education and training, and in every chapter we've discussed, we evaluate the advice he receives, how he processes it, and point to applications of it. The education and preparation of Jon is central to this project.

Secondly, just because a person is presented with multiple opportunities for mentorship, does not mean that the person will see them as such. It seems like you are trying to remove all of Jon's intrinsic merits by appealing to how much he is "educated" by others, like it's some passive experience. That Jon understands these are lessons to be considered, that he keeps advice and observations on file, and knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff are why these lessons improve Jon. He is smart and humble enough to accept the lessons, and he's clever (usually) enough to know when and how to apply them. Learning is not passive; that Jon is learning through mentorship is as much about his own worth as a protege as it is of the quality of mentorship he receives.

Jon is not singular in having good mentors. I do not want to derail into a tangent about Dany and Robb, but in Robb's case, he was utterly more privileged than Jon in terms of being prepared to lead and having councillors at his disposal. Half of the advice Jon gets in aGoT is to bring him up to a "baseline" of worth given that he's a bastard, and thus, not as important as a trueborn like his brother. Robb obviously didn't need those lessons.

It seems rather unnecessarily unproductive to insist that Jon is "more privileged" than Robb, who was Ned's heir, and had all of his bannermen, the Blackfish and most especially Cat at his disposal. Robb repeatedly refused to heed the advice of his arguably most valuable resource (Cat), whereas Jon is far more cautious about ignoring such advices during their training periods.

It also makes a great deal of sense that the quality of Jon's mentors is better, give or take, than other young leaders. One thing we are seeing repeatedly is that the Watch is a sample of the best and worst of humanity. Given the more democratic and mitigated "meritocracy," the most capable men rise to leadership positions. Ergo, Jon's mentors are by and large some of the best examples of leaders we will see in the series.

I am just very troubled by the timbre of your posts wrt Jon's education, because it comes across as seemingly trying to negate Jon's ability and action in favor of his being simply more "privileged" to explain his success and other's failures. Just as it takes more than mere cleverness and instinct to be a good leader, it takes more than mentorship as well. That Jon seizes such opportunities is part of why he is successful, and that comes from something inside him.

That he has the best combination of motivation and mentorship doesn't really strike me as something to criticize, or a negative to hold against him. If he's the best prepared to lead, so be it. I'd much prefer the licensed and trained surgeon operating on me than one who always wanted to be a surgeon but didn't have access to med school.

Speaking to the leadership that Jon will have thrust on him (more suddenly than either of the young leaders you mentioned, for the record), is a bit premature for this reread thread, though, since we're still exploring Jon's training period. It might be better to reevaluate those comparisons when we see him take on leadership roles.

[Lummel]

Jon's climb and his connections to his family. I couldn't help but think of Maia Stone. There's only the most tenuous of parallels between those two characters, but I feel as though there's something I'm not seeing clearly.

hmm, the hidden heir in plain sight? The climbing? The leadership aspect.

It is true that the mule driver could have been anyone, but GRRM decided that it should be the bastard daughter of Bob Baratheon :dunno:

...Or does the whole "do it by your own hand, look in their eyes, etc" not apply to them? I find it strange that Jon, an "old hand at justice" seemingly never had an occasion to see Ned behead a woman...

:dunno: but the reason Jon gives Qhorin was that "when I looked into Ygritte's eyes I...know she was an enemy, but there was evil in her"

...We will get Mance’s reasons for leaving in aSoS, and his story will confirm the account Qhorin gives here. I think we should take both verbal accounts rather suspiciously, that is, I’ve long thought there was a reason—beyond crowns, women and freedom—that inspired Mance to desert and become king...

**sigh** I suppose this is to be expected seeing as you are a Manceman and all ;)

...Jon and Mance are being set up as foils—Jon began his confession by appealing to his kinship to the wildlings and the idea of reciprocity with Mance, who would spare him. We’re told of Mance’s alleged reasons for desertion—a woman, a crown, and “wild blood”/ NW adjacent business—which utterly foreshadows Jon XIII, DwD, where he “deserts” for Arya (a woman), becomes the wildling leader (a “crown”), and rallying the people he left behind/ NW adjacent business, all while Mance will be literally re-enacting the Bael saga. I wonder how much of Mance Qhorin sees in Jon, and whether some of his account has a didactic quality.

interesting observation!

... I wonder if Qhorin had been anticipating the need for a crow to go over to the wildlings as a spy from early on this ranging. He says that he knows Ygritte spoke the truth by revealing that Mance would accept Jon; he tests Jon to see what sort of man Jon is, crafted a situation that would put a wildling in Jon’s debt, and finds that Jon has a deal of empathy for the wildlings. If Stonesnake is the man you call to scale cliffs, then perhaps Jon is the man to infiltrate the wildling camp/ work with Mance?

...When Jon mentions it was a wolf dream, Qhorin takes heed and insists Jon reveal everything he saw. The brothers readily accept Jon’s vision as a warging experience of accurate intel gathering, and press on. Jon, however, is extremely confused. He doesn’t understand what he’d just experienced, rejects the possibility of skinchangers as an Old Nan tale, and can’t figure out why Bran smells of death.

The party presses on until they spot an eagle. Immediately afterward, Jon spies Ghost, injured as per his dream. They patch up Ghost, ready to continue, but Qhorin changes the plan. Ghost’s injuries confirm the veracity of Jon’s vision, confirms that the eagle they see is indeed a skinchanger, and Qhorin commands them to retreat as they have been spotted. I think Qhorin already knows how this script is going to play out, and knows which men are to play which part. When they get to the ledge where they found the wildlings last chapter, Qhorin commands Dalbridge to hold it to buy time. Dalbridge’s response—delivered unemotionally, I believe—is extremely sad: He accepts his role without complaint, and the horns that follow come dawn signal that he’s made his sacrifice...

Yes I think Qhorin suspected that Jon was a warg and I think his scenerio planning included for Jon to turncoat and for the rest of them to die, well we know that Qhorin was prepared for them all to die from Jon V. We also know from Jon V that he is well aware of Ghost even before meeting Jon. I suspect that team selection was on the dual basis of men who had useful skills in terms of gathering intelligence and for winning time if lives had to be sacrificed to win their escape.

When Jon mentions it was a wolf dream, Qhorin takes heed and insists Jon reveal everything he saw. The brothers readily accept Jon’s vision as a warging experience of accurate intel gathering, and press on. Jon, however, is extremely confused. He doesn’t understand what he’d just experienced, rejects the possibility of skinchangers as an Old Nan tale, and can’t figure out why Bran smells of death.

In a way Jon's wolf dream is the completion of the mission. On confirmation that it was a wolf dream and not your usual slumber dream then they flee - but how far is Qhorin analogous to Meera and Jojen? A spiritual mentor figure one of whose aims is to push Jon towards awareness of his being a warg?

... I bolded the most curious part, imo. Apparently, Ghost sits down and howls for his siblings. Ghost is supposedly mute, yet “his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound.”

yes I wonder about that, and that Jon doesn't remark on it. Presumably this too was a silent shout!

One of Ghost/ Jon’s siblings hears the cry: Bran. Bran calls out to Jon from a slender weirwood growing in stone: Bran smells like death because he’s hiding in the Winterfell crypts at this point. In the last chapter, we are given the Bael story, which seems to be a clue, here, that Bran is similarly hidden away amongst the dead, yet safe. This chapter has had a running theme of the safety of shadows, and good men coming from shadow (Qhorin and Mance are Shadow Tower men; Bran is coming from shadow to open Jon’s eye); I think this complements Mel and Davos’ recent discussion of light and dark (Davos II, just before Jon V if anyone’s curious)...

The shadows are where all the Stark children end up hiding at one stage or another. The shadows also suggest a certain greyness and ambiguity in stark opposition to Melisandre's the onion is good or rotten, not both.