The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Winterfellian]

Great stuff Butterbumps!

I think that idea alone is high speculative let alone meetings or discussion between The Mance and Benjen! I'll be interested to see what other people's takes on this are.

I am with you on this one Lummel. Granted, there is more to Mance’s story than the recap he gave Jon, but I think this is something where Mance’s “bardness” comes into play. I see Mance’s tale much like the songs Sansa loved so much, where the grittier aspects of the tales where stripped leaving only the more romantic idealized version of it.

This becomes especially telling IMHO when compared with the earthier version of Mance we heard from Qhorin before. If I have to pin one motive on Mance, I’ll be more inclined to go with the envy for freedom, but a freedom to live HIS life as he wished; in other words, a desire to come and go as he pleased, minding nothing but his own pleasure. This stands in complete contrast with the sort of freedom Jon begins to yearn for in ADWD, which is a desire to act and choose with nothing but his own judgment as opposition, but in service of the Realm. Where Mance’s is a “selfish” kind of yearn for freedom, Jon is exactly the opposite. In Mance’s case, the restraints derived from the NW prevented him from living his life as fully as he would have liked; in Jon’s case they later start to deprive him from the liberty to act as he choose best in adherence to the spirit of the NW.

This is why I find the Dornishman’s wife a very fitting song for Mance. As Ragnorak notes, tasting someone else’s wife speaks of breaking laws at the peril of death. However, I find there is nothing heroic about the man in the song. He wanted something he couldn’t have, went after it breaking the rules and paid the price for it. Idealistic in some form, but definitely not heroic or self-denying, very much like Mance’s desertion.

[Julian Rayne]

My thoughts:

In fairness to Jon I don't agree that he was displaying his immaturity here. The Magmar was the one debriefing and questioning the raiders in addition to studying a map. And he was in fact a King, just not the King.

More clues that the Wildlings are not so different from some of the Northerners, especially the mountain clans. 'The Mance' here and 'The Ned' in ADwD.

It also strikes me that 'The Dornishman's Wife' is almost a gender flipped version of Jon's origin's story. His mother had an extra-marital affair with the Dornishwoman's husband, an affair that directly resulted in her death.

[Ragnorak]

hmm. And yet The Mance seems to do neither, Jon proposes while the Mance disposes. Where is the reward? Where the punishment? Jon gets neither - unless you count a sheepskin coat as a reward.

I think the Halfhand question was only a character assessment one-- not unlike Jon being asked to deal with Ygritte. There wasn't really a right or wrong answer per se, just one that would illuminate who the "Jon Snow" really is to a better degree. In many ways the inquiry about how Jon liked the song serves a similar purpose.

Others that you had the wildling blood.”

“The wildling blood is the blood of the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks.

This came up a few times before with various "blood of the ..." variations. There may be a deeper meaning in the variations but nothing jumps out. Mostly it seems to emphasize the oneness of the two peoples and serves to herald Jon's later "realms of men" epiphany.

I also like the turn of phrase Mance uses when he recognizes Jon--And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell. It means bastard of Winterfell which recalls the Bael tale that also comes up with Mance's own escapade. So there are Mance/Jon parallels working on multiple levels. Mance wears Rhaegar's colors so there may be yet another surrogate father figure playing out. Back to the Snow of Winterfell-- an almost magical phrasing with the Winter associations House Stark has with snow and snow with Stark power.

More clues that the Wildlings are not so different from some of the Northerners, especially the mountain clans. 'The Mance' here and 'The Ned' in ADwD.

Really like that, great connection.

The mood of the court and the demeanor of Mance deserve some attention. Council meetings in Kings Landing are boring, dreary affairs enlivened only by the barely disguised hatred and venom that flies. These people seem to honestly enjoy themselves and have a genuine affection for each other. Even if we were to take Tormund's facetious and self-deprecating boasts as sincere he still can't measure up to the egos around the Iron Throne.

Mance has an almost gentle quality about him here. Part of this is intentional to put Jon at ease I'm sure, but despite a love for talking about his exploits he comes off as humble. Bael was better than him, no perceived slight for being missed as King, and the King and Queen serve Jon. He calls Guest Right by its Laws of Hospitality name but also very much demonstrates the spirit of that hospitality-- he's practically watching Jon's mead cup like a waiter.

The lack of any threatening demeanor is actually pretty astounding. He's serving Jon food and the only remotely hostile thing he ever says is "care not to play tricksy with me." There's no Illyn Payne or Areo Hotah with an axe in the room or boasts of how painfully Mance killed the last man to lie to him or reminders from Oberyn about just how violent a man he really is-- he just pours mead while his wife cuts the chicken.

[Isildur's Mane]

I think the Halfhand question was only a character assessment one-- not unlike Jon being asked to deal with Ygritte. There wasn't really a right or wrong answer per se, just one that would illuminate who the "Jon Snow" really is to a better degree. In many ways the inquiry about how Jon liked the song serves a similar purpose.

This came up a few times before with various "blood of the ..." variations. There may be a deeper meaning in the variations but nothing jumps out. Mostly it seems to emphasize the oneness of the two peoples and serves to herald Jon's later "realms of men" epiphany.

I also like the turn of phrase Mance uses when he recognizes Jon--And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell. It means bastard of Winterfell which recalls the Bael tale that also comes up with Mance's own escapade. So there are Mance/Jon parallels working on multiple levels. Mance wears Rhaegar's colors so there may be yet another surrogate father figure playing out. Back to the Snow of Winterfell-- an almost magical phrasing with the Winter associations House Stark has with snow and snow with Stark power.

Really like that, great connection.

The mood of the court and the demeanor of Mance deserve some attention. Council meetings in Kings Landing are boring, dreary affairs enlivened only by the barely disguised hatred and venom that flies. These people seem to honestly enjoy themselves and have a genuine affection for each other. Even if we were to take Tormund's facetious and self-deprecating boasts as sincere he still can't measure up to the egos around the Iron Throne.

Mance has an almost gentle quality about him here. Part of this is intentional to put Jon at ease I'm sure, but despite a love for talking about his exploits he comes off as humble. Bael was better than him, no perceived slight for being missed as King, and the King and Queen serve Jon. He calls Guest Right by its Laws of Hospitality name but also very much demonstrates the spirit of that hospitality-- he's practically watching Jon's mead cup like a waiter.

The lack of any threatening demeanor is actually pretty astounding. He's serving Jon food and the only remotely hostile thing he ever says is "care not to play tricksy with me." There's no Illyn Payne or Areo Hotah with an axe in the room or boasts of how painfully Mance killed the last man to lie to him or reminders from Oberyn about just how violent a man he really is-- he just pours mead while his wife cuts the chicken.

I agree.

On my first read I was impressed. There had been such a build up for Mance to be such a fierce leader, but then here he is, being the gracious host, pouring mead. I wasn't expecting this.

There isn't as much frills up north and beyond the wall there is almost none. Here is Mance being his own cup bearer and bard, you would assume that he is his own justice and executioner as well.

It is strange compared to all the other Kings and Lords, but it works beyond the wall. If it was any other way then the wildlings probably wouldn't follow him.

[redviper9]

<snip>

Excellent summary and analysis, as per usual, Bumps!

I think that idea alone is high speculative let alone meetings or discussion between The Mance and Benjen! I'll be interested to see what other people's takes on this are.

Mance allegedly not having met Benjen or knowing who he was on sight is one of the things I've always found hard to believe in his account.

Though we don't have any hard dates, Mance's desertion appears to have occurred within a decade of his meeting Jon in this chapter (I've always pictured Robb and Jon as being around Bran's age when Mance met them as children). I think it likely that Benjen was already a member of the Night's Watch by the time Mance first went to Winterfell. Though Benjen had not reached the age of majority when Robert's Rebellion ended, we know that that is not an impediment to joining the Watch (Jon was sent to the Wall at 14); furthermore, the Stark line was fairly secured once Robb and Sansa were born, meaning he was no longer needed at Winterfell as a possible heir to Ned (as he was during the rebellion proper). Benjen also famously told Jon that it took time for Sworn Brothers to rise through the ranks, meaning that he probably didn't become First Ranger overnight (remember that one of the reasons Will and Gared resented Waymar Royce was because he was given command of a ranging party after only having spent a few months on the Wall). And if Benjen hadn't joined the Watch yet, then it's probably safe to assume that he was still living in Winterfell when Mance escorted Lord Commander Qorgyle there. Given all this, it seems like a stretch that Mance would be completely unaware of Benjen.

It is interesting to speculate as to whether Benjen and Mance interacted while they were both at Winterfell during King Robert's visit. If it had been some time since the two had seen each other, Mance may have relied on Benjen not recognizing him, the same way he was relying on Ned not recognizing him after all those years. But it wasn't necessary for the two to interact in order for Mance to relay the deteriorating situation north of the Wall. Mance could have taken the same approach Littlefinger did when he negotiated with the Tyrells: plant the information amongst the common folk (and we know that Mance was sitting below the salt at the feast) and then watch it work its way up the ladder. The King-beyond-the-Wall undoubtedly heard the talk of the increasing desertions from the Watch and rumors of his own growing strength; why not plant talk that an even greater threat was rearing its head?

Another thing that strikes me is that Mance also specifically noted that he was able to see both Jaime and Tyrion Lannister. This demonstrates that -- despite the dictum that the Wall is always the last to hear about events in the south -- Mance at least is keenly aware of southern political/military figures. This ties in with butterbumps's point that Mance's goal in visiting the feast was to gauge how effective these figures would be in the looming battle against the Others. Jaime was one of the Realm's most celebrated warriors and a member of one of the most elite fighting units in Westeros (in name if not in practice by the time the narrative begins); Tyrion had yet to display his own brand of political mettle, but he was connected to the royal family by marriage and was the nominal heir to the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms, meaning he could be of use. Once again, we see Mance as a leader that takes in the big picture and knows that all hands will be required on deck in order to fight the Others. Looking ahead, this big-picture view will influence Jon's arc.

[Blede]

Regarding the spirit of the vows vs words, a little parallel with Jaime, during the meeting of the Kingsguard:

"Ser Meryn." Jaime smiled at the sour knight with the rust-red hair and the pouches under his eyes. "I have heard it said that Joffrey made use of you to chastise Sansa Stark." He turned the White Book around one-handed. "Here, show me where it is in our vows that we swear to beat women and children."

"I did as His Grace commanded me. We are sworn to obey."

"Henceforth you will temper that obedience. My sister is Queen Regent. My father is the King's Hand. I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Obey us. None other."

Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face. "Are you telling us not to obey the king ?"

"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."

[Lummel]

I think the Halfhand question was only a character assessment one-- not unlike Jon being asked to deal with Ygritte. There wasn't really a right or wrong answer per se, just one that would illuminate who the "Jon Snow" really is to a better degree. In many ways the inquiry about how Jon liked the song serves a similar purpose.

I suppose the point I was working towards is that while for Stannis everthing has to be painfully literal, The Mance's capabilities are more wide ranging. He can use a question like that to find out about a person and to weigh them up to understand them rather than to judge them. The parallel with Stannis to my mind to to show that The Mance is more sophisticated as a leader and a person. It shows up Stannis' limitations once more (in case anybody believed that he was a people person!).

Regarding the spirit of the vows vs words, a little parallel with Jaime, during the meeting of the Kingsguard:

The Kingsguard and the Nightswatch are contrasting / parallel institutions. Which very much ties in with the idea you were exploring about the similarities between their stories.

[Lummel]

Sorry for the delay folks!

Jon II ASOS

Overview

This one of a series of marriage problem chapters, preceded by Robb persuading Edmure to marry to try and square the circle of his broken promises to the Freys and followed by Sansa suspicious of the new dress from Cersei. Jon accepted the Wildling Cloak across his shoulders in a previous chapter but in this one realises the implications of that act even if consummation takes place off the page. All these new unions, which seek the union of one person to another people and their cause end in death.

This conforms to the pattern in ASOIAF of steadily longer chapters. It takes place over a short time frame, perhaps a couple of hours, with no flash back sequences.

Jon observes the passage of the giants with Tormund, rejoins Tormund's followers who sing The Last of the Giants. Jon is suddenly attacked by Orell the Eagle (a nice pun for all Russian speakers) Rattleshirt rides up to command Jon attendance on Mance. Jon sees the aftermath of the slaughter on the Fist, confesses what he didn't mention to the Mance in their previous conversation and is then detailed to climb the Wall and honour the promise implied by the acceptance of the cloak as the unhappy lad is dragged off the page by bright eyed Ygritte.

Observations

• One off mention of Clan mothers – maybe a hint that there is a matriarchal element to some of the Wildling peoples.
  
• Another mention of popular catch phrase “Many and more”
  
• The fetishisation of virginity and sexual purity in Jon's mind as seen in his conversation with Tormund underlines the centrality of the family as the basic unit (rather than the individual) in Westeros.
  
• Tormund perceives Jon as looking for hierarchy
  
• Juxtapositions: blood and snow, peace and sudden unexpected violence. Parallel between the assault on Jon and the assault on the Fist
  
• Bunch of interesting animal descriptions of Jon: hellcrow, faithless dog, butchered boar, juxtaposed with the actual vision of Hell the slaughter on the fist of the first men – but centrally he is an animal, therefore not a human, not a Wildling and not one of us.
  
• stripping and butchering the remains at the fist – illustrates how extremely needy the Wildlings are and driven not to waste.
  
• The Mance's Raven wing helmet – some have taken this to imply a Bloodraven link. Ravens seem to be a symbol of Westerosi civilisation so it seems a little strange for The Mance to sport it on his helmet, although it could simply be because it makes for a suitably regal image.
  

Analysis

Married to the Mob

In ASOS the symbolism of the exchange of the bride's family cloak for that of the groom, passing into his family and under its protection is re-enforced. The cloak becomes a symbol of marriage but also therefore of union, loyalty and belonging in a general sense. So in contrast we are given the term turncloak for betrayal – somebody who is abandoning the familial bond of allegiance. Again though we have the joke of Jon being a (dire) wolf in sheep's clothing but also the fact that he keeps his old cloak in his pack. He is transparently keeping his options open by that act. Jon's acceptance in to the Wildling family is a marriage, the promised (or threatened from Jon's POV) final consummation we can tell by Tormund's and The Mance's reaction literally will seal the deal as far as they are concerned. As readers however we know that the divorce will be acrimonious. Marriage as the needle that stitches groups together is a form of politics that despite the events of ASOS does not fall completely out of favour, we'll see it return (to the relief of all romantics who feared that matrimony was getting a bad press in the series) in ADWD.

The Mance still wears his old Watchman's cloak as patched by the Wildling woman. This is his wedding ring – a visible sign of his commitment to the Wildling peoples.

Jon finds pronouns difficult in this chapter (despite Qhorin's advise not to balk) and uses his 'them' and 'us' inappropriately for the company he's trying to keep.

This takes us back to Maester Aemon. Having given his oath Jon has no personal responsibility. The struggle is not between a wildling and a Watch identity, it is between Jon's values as a Stark of Winterfell, the Ned's son and his duty as a Watchman. Qhorin was quite clear that he should do what it takes to pass as a Wildling, turncloak and oathbreaker.

The Starks

Some references to the family in this chapter, but also Winterfell and its community – Jon thinks of the Wildling peoples as daggers forged into a spear against it (Jon's mental model is conflictual, is the Mance's different? Sheltering behind the wall from the white walkers must include peace with the North – otherwise how are they going to survive with enemies all around? Is this a problem in story or was Mance not thinking that far ahead or simply that desperate? ) the assumed threat to Winterfell gives rise to some finger flexing. Implicitly the question of honour, marriage and sex links us to Robb. Ygritte reminds Jon of Arya – are there any Sansa references in this chapter? There is a Ned reference at the end of the chapter ”Father forgive me”. The capitalised Father is something we've seen in Tyrion. The Ned is Jon's moral role model, also Jon's link to the old gods (the gods of my Father etc).

Stories and realities

Just as at craster's Jon found that Old Nan's stories didn't match reality, he has the same experience here with the giants. Tormund reinforces the theme as he deconstructs his own myths – although he replaces them with new ones mayhaps. Is there a general warning here not to trust established narratives?

Giants

Everything about the giants suggests the primitive. The smell, appearance, simple weapons, physical power, lack of clothes. As the wildlings are to the northmen so are the giants to the wildlings. The song The Last of the Giants expresses regret for the loss of a more primitive (but still existing north of the Wall) form of life without ownership of the land. We're having a Noble Savage ethos channelled to us with some 'civilised' criticism from Jon about the Wildlings lack of, from his POV, morality.

Horn of Joramun

There's a belief that blowing the horn would bring down the Wall, but the only thing actually said about the horn is that “Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth.”. The horn at this stage appears to be a McGuffin – a device to keep Jon among the Wildlings and prevent him from assassinating Mance which as he acknowledges would be the obvious way to blunt the Wildling spear.

Next time I think Ragnorak will be bringing us Sam I to broaden out the reread to take in another perspective, also to bring out more of the deep history and magical elements in the story.

[Julian Rayne]

It's been my opinion that Old Nan's stories certainly aren't to be given a lot of credence. There's something almost sardonic in Jon's recollection of them. Perhaps <Craster> had not heard the stories.

It wasn't until someone compiled all her stories into a single post that I noticed that this woman has an obsession with blood-drinking.

The giants. This isn't really relevant to Jon's story but they're Yeti aren't they?

[Lummel]

...It wasn't until someone compiled all her stories into a single post that I noticed that this woman has an obsession with blood-drinking.

Well to fair, who doesn't? She's basically the instory version of all those people who go around buying vampire books and watching vampire TV programmes. :laugh:

The giants. This isn't really relevant to Jon's story but they're Yeti aren't they?

OK! That had never occurred to me, excellent. I suppose they are abominable.

I suppose though that would add to the whole mysterious world atmosphere of north of the Wall.

[Fire Eater]

He's bleeding like a butchered boar

Another boar reference, perhaps hinting that Jon will usurp Mance's place

When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red

The colors of his house; that results after he is marked by the eagle. The ancient Greeks regarded the eagle as a symbol of authority and rulership, and several cultures regarded the eagle as the highest messenger of the gods. The ancient Greeks also connected the eagle with Zeus, the king of the gods while the Romans associated the eagle with Jupiter, the king of the gods; and the Germanic tribes with Odin, also the king of the gods and later Christians associated the eagle with Christ. It can be taken to imply that Jon has been (perhaps divinely) marked as king.

[Lummel]

...When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red

The colors of his house; that results after he is marked by the eagle. The ancient Greeks regarded the eagle as a symbol of authority and rulership, and several cultures regarded the eagle as the highest messenger of the gods...

That is an interesting angle, particularly since that mark is going to be a scar, suggests that the call to kingship is perilous!

[butterbumps!]

I have a few world-building thoughts about this chapter. Not too sure what to make of it, or if it's ultimately important...

Giants

In this chapter, we are told this account of giants from old Nan: In Old Nan’s stories, giants were outsized men who lived in colossal castles, fought with huge swords, and walked about in boots a boy could hide in.

Old Nan’s told other stories of giants describing them as castle-dwelling over-sized men as well:

from arya III, aCoK

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood.

Old Nan’s account of giants is so far off from the reality of giants we see this chapter, I have to think that perhaps “giants” mean something else in Nan’s tales (unless she’s utterly mistaken about the whole thing). It occurs to me that perhaps something more closely resembling old Nan’s giants actually did exist for a time, and have been wiped out, as per the “Last of the Giants” song we get.

We’re told that giants have no king, which makes this claim about the Great Barrow (in Barrowton) from a Reek chapter in DwD a bit inconsistent: “He had to stop to steady them, staring up at the grassy slopes of the Great Barrow. Some claimed it was the grave of the First King, who had led the First Men to Westeros. Others argued that it must be some King of the Giants who was buried there, to account for its size.”

I know that the mention of the King of the Giants is just a rumor, but it is rather curious that a “King Giant” falls in line with old Nan’s stories, and if there were “giants” closer to this than what we see here, it would make Ygritte’s song more explainable. Not only that, but judging by both these giants and Wun Wun later, I find it strange that the CotF would consider them “our brothers and our bane.” Of course, old Nan may just be sorely mistaken entirely.

Joramun?

From the accounts, Joramun is not a giant himself, but a past KBtW. From Jon III, aCoK:

“Wildlings have invaded the realm before.” Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. “Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather’s grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard.”

“Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night’s Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters.”

We looked at this passage earlier to underscore the importance of Winterfell’s role as the Watch’s last line of defense. Now, the big mystery is what the Horn of Joramun really is, whether this is the horn the wildlings were looking for, and if so, have they found it.

After having witnessed giants, Jon repeats the line “And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth” several times over this chapter. Joramun’s horn, and Horn of Winter are treated synonymously across the series, but curiously, until the end of aSoS (when Jon meets with Mance again), this horn is only credited as being a giant’s alarm clock. That is, all mentions of this horn prior to Mance’s later clarification about it’s ability to take down the Wall, the HoW is said to merely wake giants from the earth, which is the magical power Jon focuses on here.

Does the Watch not know that this horn is supposed to do more than just “wake giants”? Is “wake giants” a euphemism for something else? Did old Nan not know about this alleged power to bring down the Wall either? I don’t believe that Mance completely fabricates the idea that the Horn of Joramun can bring down the Wall; later, in DwD one of the Flints mention Joramun’s Horn as able to bring down walls. It’s a strange mystery to me that the Watch, the Starks and old Nan seem to have forgotten the “bring down the Wall” aspect of the Horn, while the wildlings and a Flint make this association.

One final note on Joramun is that he allegedly helped the Stark in Winterfell throw back his brother, the NK:

From Bran IV, aSoS:

For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage.

So according to legend, Joramun’s resume reads:

King of the wildlings, and owner of a magical horn

Joined forced with the Stark in Winterfell to overthrow the NK

Attempted to invade south of the Wall

Was either broken by the Watch, or thrown back by Winterfell.

Pink Letter Theory?

From the Pink Letter in DwD, we have this line:

Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

I admit that my preferred non-Ramsay theory for this letter is that Mel is behind it, using Mance as a vehicle, and as such the letter could be coded. While it’s not the time to debate the letter now, I did want to point out some curious language Mance uses this chapter that could be a clue toward this theory. It’s not a perfect match, and might mean nothing; I do think Ramsay as the author makes the most sense, but as a speculative tangent, I think it’s interesting:

“Reach up for that bastard sword and I’ll have your bastard head off before it clears the scabbard,” said Mance.

Styr scowled. “His heart may still be black.”

“Then cut it out.”

[Isildur's Mane]

@ Butterbumps, I was just about to post my own findings on giants, though mine isn't as detailed or as well thought out as yours.

- this is what I had gathered from it

All the stories Jon had heard about giants were wrong. They didn't wear boots, they looked more bear-like (ape-like?) than humans, covered in hair and they smell more than thet see. He looked for swords but only found clubs (or trees).

Is this another boy-to-man moment, or because it wouldn't just be Jon but (I think) most of the South, would it be a 'knight's of summer' moment.

Jon had been relying on songs and legendsto inform him about something, but when he is actually faced with the truth, he sees something different.

Maybe it's just me, but when I read that section it felt rather sad that the giants were not what he was told growing up.

With regards to giant kings - I had forgotten about the giant barrow part from the a Reek chapter - but doesn't Jon call Mag the Mighty a king when Jon finds Mag dead? Even though Tormund said there are no giant kings?

Joramun's horn:

I have been wondering if Mance just made up the bringing-the-wall-down part. I can't remember now, but other then Mance, Tormund

and whoever was in that tent (Dalla and Val?) does any of the other wildlings talk about how the horn can bring down the Wall? If so, maybe it's just another thing the people south of the Wall have forgotten.

Also (as a side note), if Joramun had to team up with the Starks to take down the NK, does that mean Others were up and walking then? If so, is that the reason why Joramun tried to invade south of the Wall?

[Lady of Long Lake]

Joramun’s horn, and Horn of Winter are treated synonymously across the series

I wonder if the horn in "Joramun's Horn" could be a play on words to mean what the word "horn" means elsewhere in this story- when a person is being cheated on by their spouse? If you think of it in that context, who would be the "Horn of King Robert"? Would it be Cersei or Jaime? I wonder if the "Horn of Winter" could be a person, a person that breaks a sacriligious vow to someone who could be symbalised as "Winter"- Jon, Bran, Rickon, etc.?

And if Jon is the Stark that is symbalising "Winter" at the moment( as the eldest living Stark child), wouldn't Bowen Marsh be "the horn"?

[SeanF]

He's bleeding like a butchered boar

Another boar reference, perhaps hinting that Jon will usurp Mance's place

When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red

The colors of his house; that results after he is marked by the eagle. The ancient Greeks regarded the eagle as a symbol of authority and rulership, and several cultures regarded the eagle as the highest messenger of the gods. The ancient Greeks also connected the eagle with Zeus, the king of the gods while

the Romans associated the eagle with Jupiter, the king of the gods; and the Germanic tribes with Odin, also the king of the gods and later Christians associated the eagle with Christ. It can be taken to imply that Jon has been (perhaps divinely) marked as king.

Strictly speaking, I thought Christians associated the Eagle with St. John the Evangelist, the "Eagle of Patmos." In a lot of churches, the lectern is in the shape of an Eagle, symbolising St. John proclaiming the Gospel.

But overall, I think the fact that he is marked by an eagle, is a sign of Jon being marked for greatness in some way.

Edit: St. John, as Evangelist, was obviously the messenger of God, so the overall theme, of an eagle being a Divine messenger, remains.

[butterbumps!]

Joramun's horn:

I have been wondering if Mance just made up the bringing-the-wall-down part. I can't remember now, but other then Mance, Tormund and whoever was in that tent (Dalla and Val?) does any of the other wildlings talk about how the horn can bring down the Wall? If so, maybe it's just another thing the people south of the Wall have forgotten.

Also (as a side note), if Joramun had to team up with the Starks to take down the NK, does that mean Others were up and walking then? If so, is that the reason why Joramun tried to invade south of the Wall?

Well, about the horn, in DwD, we get this, when a Horn is sounded in Winterfell:

“Do they mean to try and blow our walls down?” japed a Flint when the warhorn sounded once again. “Mayhaps he thinks he’s found the Horn of Joramun.”

So this Flint associates the horn of Joramun with a horn that has the ability to break down walls. That's what I find so curious-- the wildlings (perhaps told by Mance, or else it's common knowledge through lore or something) and this Flint make the horn-Wall association, while the Starks and the NW think of the horn as something to wake giants.

On Joramun teaming up for the NK, I'm very unclear on the timeline, but I think we're led to believe the NK incident was after the Long Night. But I'm kind of open-minded about the timeline (does Long Night truly precede the NK, or could the NK have been a cause of the Long Night? etc). I'm also not sure about the presence of Others in the NK story; if this was after the Long Night, my guess is more that he sacrificed to the Others, but also turned his brothers into wights of sorts, like bound them to his will (so my understanding of the story is that he kind of took the role of an Other in a sense).

And if Jon is the Stark that is symbalising "Winter" at the moment( as the eldest living Stark child), wouldn't Bowen Marsh be "the horn"?

I've never considered the possibility that it could be a person, but that is a really interesting position.

I'm less convinced by the cuckhold explanation, but I like how you're thinking of this. I wonder if the vow-- "the horn that wakes the sleepers" might be more of a clue to support this idea. Who is the person responsible for alerting the realm, or that line of inquiry.

[Julian Rayne]

It's quite likely that Joramun's horn, the giant-waking horn and the Wall-breaking horn have been consolidated into a single horn in folklore after thousands of years. In our world for example Excalibur and the Sword-from-the-Stone are often combined. And some scholars believe that they were indeed the same sword in the original stories.

And that confusion about a story from about fifteen hundred years ago. Actual historic facts from eight thousand years ago would be even more prone to confusion and consolidation.

With the data we have, Joramun's horn, the giant-waking horn and the Wall-breaking horn could be anything from one to three horns.

[Isildur's Mane]

Well, about the horn, in DwD, we get this, when a Horn is sounded in Winterfell:

“Do they mean to try and blow our walls down?” japed a Flint when the warhorn sounded once again. “Mayhaps he thinks he’s found the Horn of Joramun.”

So this Flint associates the horn of Joramun with a horn that has the ability to break down walls. That's what I find so curious-- the wildlings (perhaps told by Mance, or else it's common knowledge through lore or something) and this Flint make the horn-Wall association, while the Starks and the NW think of the horn as something to wake giants.

On Joramun teaming up for the NK, I'm very unclear on the timeline, but I think we're led to believe the NK incident was after the Long Night. But I'm kind of open-minded about the timeline (does Long Night truly precede the NK, or could the NK have been a cause of the Long Night? etc). I'm also not sure about the presence of Others in the NK story; if this was after the Long Night, my guess is more that he sacrificed to the Others, but also turned his brothers into wights of sorts, like bound them to his will (so my understanding of the story is that he kind of took the role of an Other in a sense).

I'd forgotten about what Flint said. So maybe it is just the Wildlings and the mountain clans of the north that remember? With likely some other houses too. Just that, the ones that matter - the Starks and the NW don't. And that could likely be because (for the NW atleast) of how many different LC's hae been in charge - each with different loyalties and priorities that things like this could get forgotten

It's quite likely that Joramun's horn, the giant-waking horn and the Wall-breaking horn have been consolidated into a single horn in folklore after thousands of years. In our world for example Excalibur and the Sword-from-the-Stone are often combined. And some scholars believe that they were indeed the same sword in the original stories.

And that confusion about a story from about fifteen hundred years ago. Actual historic facts from eight thousand years ago would be even more prone to confusion and consolidation.

With the data we have, Joramun's horn, the giant-waking horn and the Wall-breaking horn could be anything from one to three horns.

I had forgotten how the history is so fuzzy (as it should be if it is going to emulate real history). That goes to show I should stop posting at midnight lol. I think I have grande ideas but I forget important points lol

[Lady Arya's Song]

Interesting idea regarding the Horn. Martin uses Biblical stories sometimes and the Wildlings aka freefolk coming through the Wall reminded me a bit of Israelites coming into the Promised land crossing the Jordan and being led by Joshua.

The horn supposedly bringing down the Wall; not sure if this has already been mentioned, if so apologies but it reminds me of the shofars (ram's horns) sounding and the Walls of Jericho came down. GRRM might be using that as a motiff for this part of the story. In our English language its horns but in hebrew its shofars or ram's horns.