If Rhaegar won and Lyanna survived, would Dorne be threatened, and would they justified in feeling that way?

[MyaStoned]

I don't mean to be mean and rude but aren't you making things up that aren't in the book. We don't know if Rhaegar married Lyanna until GRRM writes it. We also do know that Dorne was not fine with what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna. We heard it from the mouth of the author of the books.

We don't know if Elia believed in the prophecy either or knew everything that was happening. What makes you think that Dorne the furtherest kingdoms from what is happening with the White Walkers would believe Mad Rhaegar and his ramblings when Northern Ned Stark himself probably wouldn't have believed it without definite proof.

You do realize that Rhaegar, Lyanna and the Kingsguard were hiding out in Dorne and the TOJ in the middle of nowhere. Not really near any Dornish strongholds.

Dorne was preoccupied with other things at the time. They weren't really looking for Rhaegar and Lyanna in their own Kingdom which is still pretty big to be desert.

The point remains, she was put into Dorne for safekeeping.

Elia, at least, knew and understood the prophecy. She's present and discussing it with Rhaegar in Dany's vision. Maybe her family didn't get it, but they couldn't have been that miffed, considering the later Targ marriage attempts.

And I'm not 'making things up,' I'm using critical thinking. "We swore a vow" (or took an oath, whatever he said) is pretty clear. We don't really know the Hound is alive either, should we wait till it's explicitly said in the books or by the author?

[C0bR]

Succession war would be basically inevitable. If it even comes to that. Considering how naive and defenseless would Lyanna be in KL, she and Jon would be dead in a month.

[Hippocras]

I'm of the opinion that Elia was not opposed to Rhaegar having another child after she was no longer safely able to have children. In fact, I think she suggested her best friend, Ashara Dayne. However, Ashara was impregnated and had a miscarriage by another man, and Rhaegar decided to search out another person to give birth to the 3rd head of the dragon. Rhaegar went to Lyanna, who he felt an attraction for and who he respected after he discovered she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So, I think Elia may have been okay with Rhaegar taking a second wife.

With Elia's children as heirs, Elia helping to smooth things over with her family, Rhaegar being so popular, and maybe with him adding a few Martell's to his council, I think Dorne would accept the situation.

It is idealistic but I agree.

[The Wolves]

Succession war would be basically inevitable. If it even comes to that. Considering how naive and defenseless would Lyanna be in KL, she and Jon would be dead in a month.

Why would Lyanna be naive and defenseless in KL, the girl might be the Knight of the Laughing Tree she probably has skills.

And I would hope Rhaegar would've enforced that Aegon was his first trueborn son and heir to the throne, it's as simple as that.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

They would have been angry and they would be perfectly justified. If Jon was legitimate, he would be a threat to Elia's children and as Rhaegar preferred Lyanna, they would be afraid that Jon would be declared heir over Aegon if Lyanna manages to convince him. Even if Jon isn't declared heir, whose to say Lyanna isn't Allicent reborn, the Martells know nothing about her except that she ran off with the man their sister was married to. Though Elia might have seen how naïve and clueless Lyanna was and decided that she'd never be a threat to her own children and simply kept well away from Lyanna after forcing Rhaegar to publicly declare Aegon heir. They would never have been friends after all the humiliation that Lyanna and Rhaegar forced her to endure.

Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree just shows she was good at jousting. She isn't good at hand-to-hand combat or sword fighting so if someone tried to kill her, they would probably succeed.

[Anath]

The point remains, she was put into Dorne for safekeeping.

Elia, at least, knew and understood the prophecy. She's present and discussing it with Rhaegar in Dany's vision. Maybe her family didn't get it, but they couldn't have been that miffed, considering the later Targ marriage attempts.

And I'm not 'making things up,' I'm using critical thinking. "We swore a vow" (or took an oath, whatever he said) is pretty clear. We don't really know the Hound is alive either, should we wait till it's explicitly said in the books or by the author?

Elia was not discussing it with Rhaegar. She was taking care of her baby, preoccupied with him while Rhaegar prattled. And the proof that she understood it and accepted it is even less.

And you are making things up, not only about Elia understanding the prophecy. "We swore a vow" doesn't equal "We swore a vow to protect Rhaegar's second wife". There is more than one kind of vow.

GRRM himself said that Dorne was not OK with Rhaegar's treatment of Elia and given the fact that they had two objectives: Dornish interests and revenge. Marriage attempts are good tools for that. Funny you think they should have been so furious at the dead Rhaegar to scorn those two things.

As to Lyanna being in Dorne for safekeeping, would you show me the part in the books where the Martell men-at-arms guarding her are? Or even the Dayne ones? Because it looks more like they just hid there without anyone's knowledge.

As to Elia and Lyanna being friends and Elia being okay with the situation, it's idealistic over the top. I understand that Lyanna was the best thing since sliced bread and Elia just had to see it and fall over her head to befriend her but there's just one tiny little problem: Lyanna was a threat even if she didn't mean it and well, she never showed any other trait than that of a selfish little brat. Even her famous "defense" of Howland Reed was not about Howland at all, it was about Stark honour, as well as the chance to live her dream of being a knight. If the squires could be punished through an activity Lyanna didn't like, they would have gone on their merry way since Lyanna did only what Lyanna liked, including shirking the only obligation she had, which coincidentally included the Stark honour that, in this case, Lyanna felt completely justified trampling on.

Lyanna was a threat to Elia and her children, I don't believe in her own good intentions and no matter how good one is and how awesome True Love is, people don't take well being humiliated, endangered, having their children in danger of being supplied and themselves being seen as the inferior one.

I am quite surprised at all those people repeating "poor girl, she was only 15!" and then treat her as she was 5. Was she really this clueless and naive (meaning, good and noble?) She certainly showed that she was very preoccupied with her own good and willing to be all high and mighty when it wouldn't cost her a thing. Where does the opinion that she would never think of supplanting Elia comes from?

[The Wolves]

They would have been angry and they would be perfectly justified. If Jon was legitimate, he would be a threat to Elia's children and as Rhaegar preferred Lyanna, they would be afraid that Jon would be declared heir over Aegon if Lyanna manages to convince him. Even if Jon isn't declared heir, whose to say Lyanna isn't Allicent reborn, the Martells know nothing about her except that she ran off with the man their sister was married to. Though Elia might have seen how naïve and clueless Lyanna was and decided that she'd never be a threat to her own children and simply kept well away from Lyanna after forcing Rhaegar to publicly declare Aegon heir. They would never have been friends after all the humiliation that Lyanna and Rhaegar forced her to endure.

Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree just shows she was good at jousting. She isn't good at hand-to-hand combat or sword fighting so if someone tried to kill her, they would probably succeed.

Jon is as much a threat to Aegon's claim as Rhaenys is.

People have legitimate children with different wives all the time and there are no succession wars. Honestly it really does depend on the dynamic that Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Elia creates we don't know enough about their personalities to assume this and that regarding them.

Seriously though with the argument that Jon is legitimate than it can be said that Viserys and Dany would be a threat against Rhaegar's legitimate children. Or Aegon and Rhaenys could just as easily have fought over the throne because Rhaenys is firstborn and in Dornish custom(which they are)it says the first born child no matter gender inherits. The Dornish could back Rhaenys over Aegon even though the throne passes to the male inheritants before the female.

[Hippocras]

Well I think Dorne was not ok with Rhaegar and Lyanna, but this is because they didn't know what it was really about.

I think Elia DID know though, but as she was Aerys's hostage by then she had no way of telling her family.

So there is perception, which is bad, and reality, which was botched because prophesy was misinterpreted. Dorne had only perception to work from, same as Robert, and both were extremely flawed interpretations.

[Anath]

Well I think Dorne was not ok with Rhaegar and Lyanna, but this is because they didn't know what it was really about.

I think Elia DID know though, but as she was Aerys's hostage by then she had no way of telling her family.

So there is perception, which is bad, and reality, which was botched because prophesy was misinterpreted. Dorne had only perception to work from, same as Robert, and both were extremely flawed interpretations.

Did she know, really? Did she believe Rhaegar when he dramatically proclaimed that the only way to save the world was to run away with the girl he had once humiliated her for, humiliating her once again and on a bigger scale? She had just almost died giving him an heir and he blatantly showed the world that she and her children were not enough.

Magic hadn't been around for ages, except for dwelling in Rhaegar and his kin's heads. Do we really know that Elia even believed it still existed?

[Hippocras]

Did she know, really? Did she believe Rhaegar when he dramatically proclaimed that the only way to save the world was to run away with the girl he had once humiliated her for, humiliating her once again and on a bigger scale? She had just almost died giving him an heir and he blatantly showed the world that she and her children were not enough.

Magic hadn't been around for ages, except for dwelling in Rhaegar and his kin's heads. Do we really know that Elia even believed it still existed?

We have absolutely no evidence anywhere to say she felt humiliated, ever. That is an assumption. By us, and by several characters also.

If she almost died giving birth and knew perfectly well she could not give him another child, given the Dornish attitudes to sex it even seems quite likely she was ok with a paramour. Theirs was not a love marriage and she was not a woman scorned.

[Anath]

We have absolutely no evidence anywhere to say she felt humiliated, ever. That is an assumption. By us, and by several characters also.

If she almost died giving birth and knew perfectly well she could not give him another child, given the Dornish attitudes to sex it even seems quite likely she was ok with a paramour. Theirs was not a love marriage and she was not a woman scorned.

Like Lord Yronwood of Dorne was OK with his paramour having a thing with Oberyn?

We have absolutely no evidence to say she felt humiliated, ever, right. We only know the way people feel when their spouse acts derisively in front of the world to see. We also have various women and their attitude toward their husband's bastards, from Catelyn to Cersei. None of them was pleased with their husbands looking away.

In my opinion, Elia would have been OK with a paramour if Rhaegar had the good sense to choose anyone else but a girl from a House more powerful than hers. And not display his preferences so openly. Theirs was not a love marriage but it would still be good of him to take care of his wife's dignity while he led his own life. She might not have expected love but a little respect from the chivalrous prince was not an unreasonable expectation. It's worth noting that no one of the characters who think about her are of the opinion that she got that.

And something else we don't know: that Elia was fond of Rhaegar. We know Selmy thinks Rhaegar was fond of her. She might not have been, though, and in this case, she would have even less reason to be all willing to condone the publicity of his affair.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

@The Wolves

First, Targ law says that all males come before females so order of sucession would have been Aegon>Jon>Viserys>Rhaenys>Dany so Jon would have been next in line. And most people aren't heirs to the throne was Rhaegar was.

I agree that it all depends on Rhaegar's, Elia's and Lyanna's personalities and we don't know enough about them. I was arguing why the Martells would have been angry if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and why they would have seen Jon as a threat to Aegon. The Martells don't know what Lyanna's personality is like and considering what she did, they would probably been more likely to hate her and think the worst of her, even if it was not true.

[Hippocras]

Elia and Rhaegar were not in love, but they WERE friends. It therefore follows, logically, that he shared at least some of his thinking on the prophesies that preoccupied him, their meaning and importance.

For Rhaegar Lyanna was not just some affair! She was his route to the fulfillment of a prophesy that he knew was extremely important even if the details were fuzzy and difficult to interpret.

We should stop seeing Elia and Rhaegar and Lyanna as some banal love triangle. The whole thing was about something much older, deeper and more important than their marriage.

[Anath]

Elia and Rhaegar were not in love, but they WERE friends. It therefore follows, logically, that he shared at least some of his thinking on the prophesies that preoccupied him, their meaning and importance.

For Rhaegar Lyanna was not just some affair! She was his route to the fulfillment of a prophesy that he knew was extremely important enerve if the details were fuzzy and difficult to interpret.

WERE they? Where in the text is it stated that Elia was friendly, fond or whatever to Rhaegar?

I don't know about you but I certainly don't share my friends' thinking when it's to my detriment - and no matter how you spin it, having Lyanna in the game was to Elia's detriment.

[Hippocras]

WERE they? Where in the text is it stated that Elia was friendly, fond or whatever to Rhaegar?

I could not tell you where precisely it says so, but it does. I think it might have been Barristan who said so. Or Connington.

[Anath]

I could not tell you where precisely it says so, but it does. I think it might have been Barristan who said so. Or Connington.

Barristan did not say it. He only said Rhaegar was fond of her. And Connington was simply jealous because Elia had the sexual relationship with Rhaegar while he was left out in the cold.

Even if they were friends - which is nowhere near confirmed and is only taken as a fact because he was so great and he deigned to be fond of her while she was so good that it verged on stupidity and she was totally OK with accepting the threat of the selfish, determined Lyanna Stark in her life and her children's lives - it still doesn't mean they stayed this way. They might have been friends before Harrenhall. Or before Aegon's birth and Rhaegar's running away. And then they might have stopped.

People do things that hurt their friends all the time. Doesn't mean said friends were happy to be hurt.

Elia was said to be good, not an idiot. In the world of ASOIAF, it's all about politics. To Rhaegar, it might have been all stars in the eyes and so on. She had her children and future to think about, though, and it's my guess she knew she couldn't rely on their father for that. He could have removed them from succession if he decided that they were not in the prophecy, after all, or if the love of his life nagged him enough. After all, the quote many use to claim that Rhaegar cared about his children - the one from Jaime's dream - is, in fact, all about Rhaegar and how sad he was that Jaime betrayed him by leaving Elia and the children to die.

I doubt there are many users who see their line as a banal love triangle. It's just that some of us incorporate not only prophecy but politics. In political sense, the Lyanna thing was a clicking bomb for Westeros and yes, the royal family, especially Elia and her children.

[Hippocras]

The story of the war is fuzzy to everyone. But so far we have a lot of good people who say that Rhaegar was bookish, thoughtful, and essentially good. Of course everyone is grey in GRRM's world, and no doubt Rhaegar made some mistakes, but he was not generally a stupid or an impulsive man.

So given what we know of him, it is simply not like him to fall head over heels in love, say fuck the realm I want the girl because she is hot, and run off to some isolated tower just for the fun of it.

No, he had been thinking about prophesies and their meaning for years, LONG before he had any children at all with Elia. In several years of marriage to her it is guaranteed he mentioned the prophesies to her and it was clear to him, even if he was in the end wrong, that he needed three children. This she would also have known, because it was the specific part of the prophesy that was relevant to her.

[Anath]

I have no doubt that he mentioned the prophecy to her. Anyway, it doesn't mean that she agreed. He didn't even need her to. He would - and might - have ridden out on his little escapade over her protests.

As to all those good people praising Rhaegar, who are they and how many of them knew him in person, let alone more closely? JonCon is not objective, Jaime seems to respect his iron will, Barristan admits he didn't know him all that well. Anyway, his description of Rhaegar as a child gave me a pause. Rhaegar seems to have been a moody and obsessive personality.

[Hippocras]

I have to say there seem to be lots of people who want to ignore all the book evidence that Rhaegar was essentially a good man, when really it is only Robert who believed he was a rapist, and the rest at worst think he cheated on Elia.

But why does everyone want to believe Elia was some sort of angel? I mean, check out her brothers. Maybe she had a lover herself! Not impossible.

So the next person who gets all pissed off about people believing Rhaegar was essentially good, because several characters who knew him well say so, should stop and think hard about their assumptions about Elia. No one ever said SHE was a wonderful, wise person after all. Maybe she wasn't.

[Wmarshal]

Why would Lyanna be naive and defenseless in KL, the girl might be the Knight of the Laughing Tree she probably has skills.

And I would hope Rhaegar would've enforced that Aegon was his first trueborn son and heir to the throne, it's as simple as that.

Tell that to the power hungry Northerners who want more say.