How differently to Cersei would Robert have treated Lyanna?

[corbon]

We dont know young Robert all we do know is that he is vastly different then King Robert and thats what people seem to forget

The don't forget it because its simply not true. Young Robert is just the same as Old Robert, except for the ravages of his lifestye over time.

We know from his own words that he always loved to drink and fuck and fight and hated everything else.

We know from Harrenhal that he was more interested in drinking than hanging out with Lyanna.

We know from his behaviour during the rebellion that he was so 'distressed' by the thought of his 'love' being raped that he wore out an entire inn-full of whores.

You seem to have this false image of young Robert that never existed. Old Robert is just Young Robert with some years and therefore kgs (pounds) added on. The Highschool quarterback who never grew up and is now a fat couch potato.

He still repsects the Ned so no, no and no on the abuse ect. So you really don't think people can change?

They can. Whether they will or not depends on their willpower. One thing we do know about Robert is that his emotional willpower is basically non-existent. He always takes the path of least resistance to anything non-physical. The idea that this sort of character may change when he will still have the means (Lordship etc) to keep his irresponsible (anti-responsible?) boyhoodism on-going is an unbelievable fantasy.

Newstar, Melora disagrees with your insight into Cersei's mind. Cersei is a monster. For whatever reasons she is a villian and we get info in AFFC that this started at a young age. Robert didnt create Cersei, Cersei created Robert. We see this in that where Cersei started off terrible, Robert was seen as a nice guy highlighted by how much Ned says he has changed. Blaming Robert for Cersei is unbelievable but after AFFC you could blame Cersei for Robert.

While certaily Robert did not create Cersei, neither did Cersei create Robert. He was who he was before they married.

2. As I have said before RR Robert is remembered as a completely different person then King Robert after Cersei's poisonous influence the dance has been danced. To our knowledge the Robert that Lyanna would've married hadn't abused anyone.

Hadn't he? Maybe not physically. That we know of. But he'd certainly abused his position and wealth to drink and whore his way around and leave at least one bastard behind, without acknowledgement.

And he did abuse Stannis (emotionally). That bird....

4. Lyanna would doubtfully be subject to the same abuse out of Roberts loge and respect for Ned.

Thats pure invention. Robert's abuse happens when he is drunk or enraged, and can include even Ned. There is clear precedent for and not the slightest clue against, suggest that he equally could have abused Lyanna when drunk or enraged.

[Stark bannermen]

Rhaegar was thin and pale? Dude, you realize he was a knight and a jouster right? And that he put up quite a fight against Robert in the Trident and hurt him pretty badly?

Just because the guy preferred books means he was thin and frail as fuck?

[Stark bannermen]

Rhaegars armour had rubies on them... The rubies were probably enchanted with magic, it explains how knights at the tourney believed him too strong, to fast and to damn good to be beaten. During the battle at the trident "Rhaegar lost all those abilities" after Robert smashed his rubies to smithereens

[Keter]

Personally I am of the belief that Robert would have treated Lyanna well. The Robert Baratheon we read of is a man stuck in a marriage utterly bereft of love (and sex) and who is still consumed by the loss of the only woman whom he truly loved. Sure, Robert loved to drink and whore in his youth, but he was hardly alone in this--Bradon Stark, whom Catelyn loved dearly, was also fond of these things at one point. Basically, I think that the worst of Robert's excesses as a king--the whoring, drinking, mistreatment of Cersei--are consequences of losing Lyanna and being made to wed a woman in her stead for whom he feels nothing (we shouldn't forget that Cersei hardly loved him either--she did have sex with Jaime on the morning of her wedding to Robert). The Robert we read of is a broken man who nurses his wounds with drink to numb the pain and whores to try and forget it.

I'm not absolving Robert of the worse things which he's done--approving of the murder of Princess Elia's children, raping Cersei and such--but largely I empathise with him. People say that Robert would not have liked Lyanna as he never knew her true nature, but how can we say this? Ned barely knew Catelyn prior to their marriage and their marriage grew to be a successful one. Who are we to say that Robert, from whose direct POV the story is never told, would not have had a similarly successful relationship with Lyanna?

Finally, Lyanna was simply a much nicer person than Cersei. Without doubt, Lyanna was stubborn and strong-willed (something which Robert would probably have a difficult time getting used to at first), but she was still a Stark and would probably understand Robert in a far better way than Cersei, who never once attempts to empathise with him in her POVs, ever could.

[Éadaoin]

"raping" Cersei and such

Nope, no need to put quotes there. He raped her. The end.

[Keter]

That's all you got from my post? I only used the quotes as it's from Cersei's POV, which is inherently unreliable. I am in no way belittling the horror of marital rape.

[mormont]

'Unreliable narrator' only takes you so far: in order to cite it, you need some sort of positive indication in the text that the particular recollection in question may be unreliable, or else we'd have nothing we could trust in any POV at all. There is no such indication in relation to Cersei's recollection of Robert's abuse. There is correspondingly no justification for use of quotes in the previous post.

[Keter]

Well I guess me using the quotes is indefensible. I've only read the series twice and not for a while now, but that doesn't serve as an excuse.

I've removed the quotes anyway. I'll have a more concrete opinion once I've read the series again.

[SeanF]

Personally I am of the belief that Robert would have treated Lyanna well. The Robert Baratheon we read of is a man stuck in a marriage utterly bereft of love (and sex) and who is still consumed by the loss of the only woman whom he truly loved. Sure, Robert loved to drink and whore in his youth, but he was hardly alone in this--Bradon Stark, whom Catelyn loved dearly, was also fond of these things at one point. Basically, I think that the worst of Robert's excesses as a king--the whoring, drinking, mistreatment of Cersei--are consequences of losing Lyanna and being made to wed a woman in her stead for whom he feels nothing (we shouldn't forget that Cersei hardly loved him either--she did have sex with Jaime on the morning of her wedding to Robert). The Robert we read of is a broken man who nurses his wounds with drink to numb the pain and whores to try and forget it.

I'm not absolving Robert of the worse things which he's done--approving of the murder of Princess Elia's children, raping Cersei and such--but largely I empathise with him. People say that Robert would not have liked Lyanna as he never knew her true nature, but how can we say this? Ned barely knew Catelyn prior to their marriage and their marriage grew to be a successful one. Who are we to say that Robert, from whose direct POV the story is never told, would not have had a similarly successful relationship with Lyanna?

Finally, Lyanna was simply a much nicer person than Cersei. Without doubt, Lyanna was stubborn and strong-willed (something which Robert would probably have a difficult time getting used to at first), but she was still a Stark and would probably understand Robert in a far better way than Cersei, who never once attempts to empathise with him in her POVs, ever could.

I don't think that things would have turned out well between them. Lyanna was no more in love with Robert than Cersei was, and he would have been the same drunken whoremonger. I think she'd have hated him, even more than Cersei does, for killing Rhaegar as well.

[Éadaoin]

That's all you got from my post? I only used the quotes as it's from Cersei's POV, which is inherently unreliable. I am in no way belittling the horror of marital rape.

No, it's not all that I got from your post--it's just what stuck out to me. I don't understand why you'd think that Cersei's recollections here were false.

eta: Never mind, I see that you've removed the quotes.

[David Selig]

Robert was always a guy with a great appetite for "pleasures of the flesh" - eating, drinking, sex, and he was always indulging himself as much as possible. That wasn't something he became because of Lyanna's death and his marriage.

He never even tried to have a long term relationship with anyone - he was married, but as the king he could've easily had a long term paramour, but all indications are that even at 35 he wasn't interested in relationships at all. He also didn't put any work into his marriage, and basically gave up on it very early on.

[Keter]

Suddenly I feel like Waymar Royce surrounded by Others...

The repurcussions of killing Rhaegar certainly make a good point, but I didn't consider it as I assumed that we were working under the premise that Lyanna never eloped with Rhaegar, thus circumventing the rebellion.

I concede that the fact Robert loved Lyanna far more than she loved him would've made the early stages of the marriage difficult for both parties, but if Robert loved Lyanna so much as he claimed, then I'm sure he'd do whatever he could to be a man she could grow to love.

David Selig: You definitely make some good points, but I'd also point out that Cersei put little effort into the marriage either--she had sex with Jaime on the day of the ceremony, ensured that she bore Robert no children and forbade him from bringing Mya to court. One could certainly argue to support these actions, but they hardly suggest that Cersei was willing to work at the marriage.

Éadaoin: I guess I was just too defensive of Robert. I do find Cersei's POV questionable, but you were basically right on this--the rape can't be questioned and is abhorrent when looked at with contemporary morals in mind.

[Biglose]

The problem with cercai is, that she is a quite unreliable narrator opposed to the rational once.

As for example Cat or Tyrion.

@Éadaoin

I think it is not about it beeing totally fase. It is about the fact, that we know cercai has in general a quite strange way of looking at things. She has the tendency to justify her actions by overstating actions of others. We do not know if she did it here, true.

The point is, would she think anything positive about him even if her "king" would have been the best husband westeros has ever seen? She would still have slept with Jamie. She probably still would have killed him, and probably she would still think of him as "abusive". For the mere fact of his existance.

A very good example is her behavior at Winterfell. Knowing the truth put still wanting people to be killed/punished for crimes they did not do.

Or to put it plain: Cercai is the kind of person, if she tells you the time you have the desire to at least check two watches, just to make sure.

[Éadaoin]

Éadaoin: I guess I was just too defensive of Robert. I do find Cersei's POV questionable, but you were basically right on this--the rape can't be questioned and is abhorrent when looked at with contemporary morals in mind.

I become overly defensive of characters as well. Sorry if it seemed like I was biting your head off there.

@Éadaoin

I think it is not about it beeing totally fase. It is about the fact, that we know cercai has in general a quite strange way of looking at things. She has the tendency to justify her actions by overstating actions of others. We do not know if she did it here, true.

The point is, would she think anything positive about him even if her "king" would have been the best husband westeros has ever seen? She would still have slept with Jamie. She probably still would have killed him, and probably she would still think of him as "abusive". For the mere fact of his existance.

A very good example is her behavior at Winterfell. Knowing the truth put still wanting people to be killed/punished for crimes they did not do.

Or to put it plain: Cercai is the kind of person, if she tells you the time you have the desire to at least check two watches, just to make sure.

Okay, so you're saying that Cersei is "overstating" what happened? How so? Do you think that Robert pawed at her (or something similar), she said "no" or pushed him off, he left her alone, and then she exaggerated what had happened, turning it into a false memory in her mind? I find this unlikely, but I just wanted to make sure that I understand what you're saying here.

eta: I felt I should add that it would be best for us to tread carefully here-- keep the focus on Cersei's reliability and not what constitutes rape. I had a kneejerk reaction before, but I don't want this thread to get locked. If you believe that what Cersei described does not constitute rape, then we should just agree to disagree, because no good will come of such an argument.

[SeanF]

Suddenly I feel like Waymar Royce surrounded by Others...

The repurcussions of killing Rhaegar certainly make a good point, but I didn't consider it as I assumed that we were working under the premise that Lyanna never eloped with Rhaegar, thus circumventing the rebellion.

I concede that the fact Robert loved Lyanna far more than she loved him would've made the early stages of the marriage difficult for both parties, but if Robert loved Lyanna so much as he claimed, then I'm sure he'd do whatever he could to be a man she could grow to love.

David Selig: You definitely make some good points, but I'd also point out that Cersei put little effort into the marriage either--she had sex with Jaime on the day of the ceremony, ensured that she bore Robert no children and forbade him from bringing Mya to court. One could certainly argue to support these actions, but they hardly suggest that Cersei was willing to work at the marriage.

Éadaoin: I guess I was just too defensive of Robert. I do find Cersei's POV questionable, but you were basically right on this--the rape can't be questioned and is abhorrent when looked at with contemporary morals in mind.

It's hard to say then how things would have turned out, had Lyanna been married to Robert as Lord of Storms End. It's possible that she and Rhaegar might still have become infatuated with each other when they met at Court, particularly if Robert devoted his time to drinking, hunting, and whoring.

[Biglose]

Okay, so you're saying that Cersei is "overstating" what happened? How so? Do you think that Robert pawed at her (or something similar), she said "no" or pushed him off, he left her alone, and then she exaggerated what had happened, turning it into a false memory in her mind? I find this unlikely, but I just wanted to make sure that I understand what you're saying here.

First of all even if I would want this discussion we would need to go through the book step by step. (And there would be already the problem that it is not true to begin with, because neither cercai nor robert do exist)

But take your own text as a hint: You state you find it unlikely. Which means a propability of less than 50%.

Compare this to other events in the books, where we are more close to "impossible". Or would you assume that Snow the direwolf is yellow?

So basically I tell you: I do not like making calls on "likely" and "unlikely" because thats a bit too insecure for me.

(So maybe there are lots of other women in the books accusing robert of similar behaviour, and I am just not aware of that. This would of course change everything. )

[mormont]

Again: it is not enough that a character has examples of 'unreliability' in their POV. This doesn't constitute grounds to question anything that appears in their chapters that you would rather not believe was true. If it was, we'd have no way of relying on huge chunks of the text: anything that appears in a Tyrion chapter, a Cersei chapter, a Ned chapter, a Sansa chapter, a Jaime chapter, even (arguably) a Theon chapter or an Arya chapter. If you looked hard enough I'm sure you could find more. If we're to sensibly discuss the books, we can't be writing off any inconvenient bits of the narrative on such flimsy grounds as that.

That really is the final word on the issue: I don't want to see any further discussion of the point.

[Dr. Pepper]

Suddenly I feel like Waymar Royce surrounded by Others...

The repurcussions of killing Rhaegar certainly make a good point, but I didn't consider it as I assumed that we were working under the premise that Lyanna never eloped with Rhaegar, thus circumventing the rebellion.

I concede that the fact Robert loved Lyanna far more than she loved him would've made the early stages of the marriage difficult for both parties, but if Robert loved Lyanna so much as he claimed, then I'm sure he'd do whatever he could to be a man she could grow to love.

David Selig: You definitely make some good points, but I'd also point out that Cersei put little effort into the marriage either--she had sex with Jaime on the day of the ceremony, ensured that she bore Robert no children and forbade him from bringing Mya to court. One could certainly argue to support these actions, but they hardly suggest that Cersei was willing to work at the marriage.

Éadaoin: I guess I was just too defensive of Robert. I do find Cersei's POV questionable, but you were basically right on this--the rape can't be questioned and is abhorrent when looked at with contemporary morals in mind.

In regards to the bolded portion, there really isn't much evidence to show that Robert would have changed his behavior for anyone, including Lyanna. Lyanna knew what he was like and she surely had no hopes for changing a man's disposition or personality. Robert claims he fought a war over Lyanna, he thought she was being terribly violated, and still he was whoring around during that time. Robert likes to use his so-called love for Lyanna as a convenient excuse for the flaws in his character, but he had always been that way and he continued to be that way. He's one of those dudes who finds joy in constantly chasing greener pastures, and Lyanna happens to be a pasture he didn't get to see. He may have wondered if he could have been a better person, but if he really wanted to be a better person, he would have tried.

[Éadaoin]

In regards to the bolded portion, there really isn't much evidence to show that Robert would have changed his behavior for anyone, including Lyanna. Lyanna knew what he was like and she surely had no hopes for changing a man's disposition or personality. Robert claims he fought a war over Lyanna, he thought she was being terribly violated, and still he was whoring around during that time. Robert likes to use his so-called love for Lyanna as a convenient excuse for the flaws in his character, but he had always been that way and he continued to be that way. He's one of those dudes who finds joy in constantly chasing greener pastures, and Lyanna happens to be a pasture he didn't get to see. He may have wondered if he could have been a better person, but if he really wanted to be a better person, he would have tried.

This.

I know some people like to look back fondly on the "old Robert", but was the old Robert so different from the new? He's depressed when we meet him, sure, but from what we know of him pre-AGOT, he otherwise seems pretty much the same as he always was. He's just unhappy. He wasn't a good fit for King. He hates it.

Cersei and Robert made one another miserable, yes, but I think Lyanna had the right of it here: you can't change a person's nature.

[Biglose]

But the point is, we do not know the nature of Robert.

Whoring around was also the "nature" of Tyrion. But somehow he changed that. Drinking seems to be the nature of everybody. And Robert was not fat, when he was young. He was described as one of the strongest man in the realm. He brought up 2 brothers without parents. Honestly, he could keep stuff together.

The point is I defend myself against the assumption that "whoring around" says much about the "nature" at all. Tyrion is drinking and whoring around but he can stop. He does it, because he does not want to deal with other issues.

Somebody brought it up, that with Lyanna he would be together with somebody who shared some of his interests.

And honestly I think thats already 50% to a good partnership.

The same person with a bit altered life can be a very different person to the outside. (Butterfly effect is a great movie)