The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Baratheon Women’s Slim Fit Burnout V-Neck T-Shirt
Game of Thrones Baratheon Women’s Slim Fit Burnout V-Neck T-Shirt
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Were we supposed to blame Sansa for Lady?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
373 replies to this topic

#1 WeirwoodTreeHugger

WeirwoodTreeHugger

    Ser Pounce lives!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,856 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:02 PM

A few threads have turned into debates about this topic so I thought I'd make a thread dedicated to it so we can fight freely.

On rereads, my take on the whole incident is that it was not supposed to make us think Sansa was disloyal or a bad person. It was a warning about Robert's incompetence as a king.

First of all, if it was intended to cause readers to view Sansa negatively, it would have been told in an Arya POV. She is the member of the Stark that does not get along with Sansa.

Instead, we are shown the "trial" and death of Lady through Ned's eyes. What this incident does is establish a pattern of behavior in Robert. Robert does not like ruling. He has no interest in making difficult decisions or listen to people's problems. He leaves these things to his council and Cersei, at his own peril.

Robert frequently stands by and allows unjust things to happen. He has the power to change them but doesn't want to. Mycah and Lady are not the only victims of his indifference. He also allows Tywin to have Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon to be killed in an extremely brutal fashion. He does not punish or reprimand Tywin or Gregor and Amory Lorch for the horrific way they were murdered. Robert also allows his council to plan the murder of Daenerys. When Ned explains the immorality of this, Robert brushes him off. Robert also allows Littlefinger to bankrupt the crown because "counting coppers" is of no interest to him.

Back to the topic of Lady. Here are the quotes that support my hypothesis.

Robert was slumped in Darry's high seat at the far end of the room, his face closed an sullen.

Clearly Robert is annoyed that he has to take care of this matter. This is befor the proceedings have even begun.

"Why was I not told that my daughter had been found?" Ned demanded, his voice ringing. "Why was she not brought to me at once?"
He spoke to Robert, but it was Cersei Lannister who answered. "How dare you speak to your king in that manner?"


Robert does not take the initiative to make sure that Ned (who must been frantic with worry) that Arya was all right. Then he allows Cersei to answer for him. Again, we can see that he just doesn't care that much.

When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like he wanted to be anywhere but here. "What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another."


Once again, Robert is massively irritated at having to do his job (parenting or kinging take your pick).

"We have a wolf," Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.
It took them all a moment to comprehend her words, but when they did, the king shrugged irritably. "As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it."


The two bolded words say it all. Robert did not stop to think about how unjust and cruel punishing Lady and Sansa was. He just wanted it over with. He wanted to get Cersei off his back. It is only after the Starks cause an uproar that Robert comes up with the excuse that being a direwolf, Lady would probably become violent anyway.

All Ned could do was take (Sansa) in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."


Sansa is in anguish and as a result, so is a Ned. Ned even brings up Lyanna, the girl Robert is supposed to be so in love with. Nothing moves him. Robert is supposed to be Ned's closest friend and he still can't be bothered to stand up to Cersei.

"At least have the courage to do it yourself."
Robert looked at Ned with dead, flat eyes and left without a word, his footsteps heavy as lead. Silence filled the hall.


As loud and gregarious as Robert is, silence might be the word to describe Robert's time as king. He has all the power, but he doesn't care to exercise it when he can speak up and stop an injustice.

The debate always rages on about Sansa's behavior and Sansa's character, but I think this chapter is really an indictment of Robert.

#2 Apple Martini

Apple Martini

    The Snarker on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,067 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:14 PM

I put the blame here on the adults: Cersei for insisting on it, Robert for ordering it and Ned for carrying it out. There is no scenario here where Lady isn't killed, nor any scenario where anyone is believed before Joffrey. If Sansa had backed up Arya's story, Cersei would have accused both of them of lying and had the animal killed anyway and Robert would have agreed to get her off his ass. The moral of the story, near as I can tell, is that Ned should have pushed back harder and been more insistent about not punishing an innocent animal. As Ned later explains to Arya, Sansa is more or less compelled to side with Joffrey, and wouldn't have had much success siding against him. The only person who might have had success — Ned — caved and later regretted it.

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 September 2013 - 10:14 PM.


#3 Morienthar

Morienthar

    The Blue Wizard

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,982 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:16 PM

It was a Kids spat and shouldn't really have been elevated to a state matter in front of the entire court,So on that front Cersei and Bob are to blame.

#4 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

    The Good Queen

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,241 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:17 PM

I put the blame here on the adults: Cersei for insisting on it, Robert for ordering it and Ned for carrying it out. There is no scenario here where Lady isn't killed, nor any scenario where anyone is believed before Joffrey. If Sansa had backed up Arya's story, Cersei would have accused both of them of lying and had the animal killed anyway and Robert would have agreed to get her off his ass. The moral of the story, near as I can tell, is that Ned should have pushed back harder and been more insistent about not punishing an innocent animal. As Ned later explains to Arya, Sansa is more or less compelled to side with Joffrey, and wouldn't have had much success siding against him. The only person who might have had success — Ned — caved and later regretted it.

This. There has been too much hate on Sansa for this scene

#5 mindchap

mindchap

    Plumm Crazy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,652 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:18 PM

To me there's no one to blame for Lady but Cersei. The whole fiasco could be laid at Joff's feet but the killing of Lady was all Cers. In my mind anyway. As for Robert I was already starting to question his character when Ned lets him go one his rant about Rhaegar, like maybe this is someone who no one has ever bothered pointing out when he's right or wrong so he just assumes because he thinks it, it's right.

#6 Littlefingers In The Air

Littlefingers In The Air

    wave 'em like you just don't care

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,950 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:22 PM

I would say that the blame is solely on Cersei. She's the one who wanted it and Robert couldn't really say no. Ned did nothing wrong IMO, he had something more important that he had to attend to and having Lannisters on his ass at that point wouldn't have helped him. Now, he could have done more but not doing all you could have done isn't the same as doing wrong.

#7 TalalOfDorne

TalalOfDorne

    Prince Of Pyke And Lord Reaper Of Sunspear

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,191 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:25 PM

No I blame Bobert and Cersei.

Edited by TalalOfDorne, 04 September 2013 - 10:27 PM.


#8 Apple Martini

Apple Martini

    The Snarker on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,067 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:26 PM

I would say that the blame is solely on Cersei. She's the one who wanted it and Robert couldn't really say no. Ned did nothing wrong IMO, he had something more important that he had to attend to and having Lannisters on his ass at that point wouldn't have helped him. Now, he could have done more but not doing all you could have done isn't the same as doing wrong.


The reason I tend to be harder on Ned is that it's not exactly a secret that Cersei is a vindictive, nasty, mean-spirited bitch who enjoys seeing other people and things suffer while she exercises her power. She was just doing what she does, because that's who she is. She's a vile human being on just about every level. And Robert is a morally weak shell of a man who lets her have her way as long as it doesn't inconvenience him too much. But Ned should have known better.

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 September 2013 - 10:27 PM.


#9 Florina Laufeyson

Florina Laufeyson

    Lord of Chaos

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,677 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:26 PM

OP, yes i agree. Robert and Cersei are the ones to blame as well as Joff's actions. Blaming Sansa is just not fair nor is it right. Its obvious that Arya and Sansa both blame each other, but later, we see Sansa say something like "Lady was gone. That was the queen's doing." So even Sansa, after time passes, realizes whos really to blame. Cersei for being a shrew, Robert for being a lazy ass who didnt have the balls to stand up to his wife. Joff for being a total putzhammer for causing the incident in the first place.

#10 Minsc

Minsc

    and Boo the miniature giant space hamster.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,233 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:26 PM

I would say that the blame is solely on Cersei. She's the one who wanted it and Robert couldn't really say no.


Robert is king he could say whatever he wants as it isn't like Tywin will care if Cersei comes crying to him about how she didn't get a wolf's skin. Though, likely she would have just pressured Jaime to do it if he had said no.

#11 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

    The Good Queen

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,241 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:29 PM

I agree Robert carries alot of the blame.

#12 WeirwoodTreeHugger

WeirwoodTreeHugger

    Ser Pounce lives!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,856 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:29 PM

I put the blame here on the adults: Cersei for insisting on it, Robert for ordering it and Ned for carrying it out. There is no scenario here where Lady isn't killed, nor any scenario where anyone is believed before Joffrey. If Sansa had backed up Arya's story, Cersei would have accused both of them of lying and had the animal killed anyway and Robert would have agreed to get her off his ass. The moral of the story, near as I can tell, is that Ned should have pushed back harder and been more insistent about not punishing an innocent animal. As Ned later explains to Arya, Sansa is more or less compelled to side with Joffrey, and wouldn't have had much success siding against him. The only person who might have had success — Ned — caved and later regretted it.


I definitely agree that Ned and Cersei were culpable too. Sometimes I wonder why he didn't just send Lady back with the Winterfell men alive and well and tell Robert he killed her. It's just one more case of Ned's honor not always being a good thing.
In the context of AGOT as a whole though, I think the chapter is letting us know that Ned isn't going to have an easy time being hand to a disinterested king.

#13 Littlefingers In The Air

Littlefingers In The Air

    wave 'em like you just don't care

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,950 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:30 PM

The reason I tend to be harder on Ned is that it's not exactly a secret that Cersei is a vindictive, nasty, mean-spirited bitch who enjoys seeing other people and things suffer while she exercises her power. She was just doing what she does, because that's who she is. She's a vile human being on just about every level. And Robert is a morally weak shell of a man who lets her have her way as long as it doesn't inconvenience him too much. But Ned should have known better.

Sure. But I'm indifferent towards Ned's actions here because of what else he was up to. He was investigating Jon Arryn's death and he could not make enemies at that point, let alone not make an enemy out of the vindictive, nasty, mean-spirited bitch he would ultimately come to find out about. He did the right thing politically here.

#14 Littlefingers In The Air

Littlefingers In The Air

    wave 'em like you just don't care

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,950 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:32 PM

Robert is king he could say whatever he wants as it isn't like Tywin will care if Cersei comes crying to him about how she didn't get a wolf's skin. Though, likely she would have just pressured Jaime to do it if he had said no.

well, yes, but I doubt Robert would want to put a target on Ned's back, which he would have if he told Cersei no. Because Cersei is crazy that way.

#15 Apple Martini

Apple Martini

    The Snarker on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,067 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:33 PM

Sure. But I'm indifferent towards Ned's actions here because of what else he was up to. He was investigating Jon Arryn's death and he could not make enemies at that point, let alone not make an enemy out of the vindictive, nasty, mean-spirited bitch he would ultimately come to find out about. He did the right thing politically here.


Only trouble with that though is that it seems like the Lannisters, or Cersei at least, were iffy on Ned from the start. Ned and Cersei were never going to be chummy and she never really considered him an ally. And obviously he DID eventually clash with them. So I'm not convinced he actually saved or gained any political capital by killing Lady since he never had much if any with them to begin with.

#16 Minsc

Minsc

    and Boo the miniature giant space hamster.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,233 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:36 PM

well, yes, but I doubt Robert would want to put a target on Ned's back, which he would have if he told Cersei no. Because Cersei is crazy that way.


Cersei isn't going to kill Ned over a wolf, especially when Robert is still alive.

Edited by Minsc, 04 September 2013 - 10:52 PM.


#17 Littlefingers In The Air

Littlefingers In The Air

    wave 'em like you just don't care

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,950 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:40 PM

Only trouble with that though is that it seems like the Lannisters, or Cersei at least, were iffy on Ned from the start. Ned and Cersei were never going to be chummy and she never really considered him an ally. And obviously he DID eventually clash with them. So I'm not convinced he actually saved or gained any political capital by killing Lady since he never had much if any with them to begin with.

that's just it though. There being no love lost between Ned and the Lannisters is all the more reason for him not to make matters worse. He never needed favor with them while in Kings Landing. He just needed to not make them angry. And I think he accomplished that here. That said, I would have liked it if he had his men take Lady back to Winterfell.

#18 butterbumps!

butterbumps!

    i will make them love me

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,547 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:41 PM

The debate always rages on about Sansa's behavior and Sansa's character, but I think this chapter is really an indictment of Robert.


Excellent job on the OP.

I agree with this assessment-- it is an indictment of Robert of sorts. I think it also gives us a clue as to what kind of power Ned truly holds as Hand (he's nearly as helpless as the kids during the trial itself), offers a microcosm of the current state of the court and gives us a hint at how power works in this system. Not only is the power dynamic skewed and corrupted, the joke of "justice" that's carried out is unethical and not remotely a form of justice by any stretch of the imagination (Lady was in fact innocent of anything, yet sentenced), and hammers home the issue of how innocents always suffer when the game is played.

Edited by butterbumps!, 04 September 2013 - 10:42 PM.


#19 Littlefingers In The Air

Littlefingers In The Air

    wave 'em like you just don't care

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,950 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:41 PM

Cersei is going to kill Ned over a wolf, especially when Robert is still alive.

She orchestrated a death by boar for Christ sake.

#20 Apple Martini

Apple Martini

    The Snarker on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,067 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:42 PM

She orchestrated a death by boar for Christ sake.


I laughed.

Surely though reasonable people can agree that the blame rests with the adults, in some combination, by whatever weight, and not on Sansa (or Arya).