The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[Lummel]

Well that turn of the conversation towards Janos Slynt fits in fairly well with our next chapter -

Samwell IV ASOS

Overview

We can divide Jon and Sam's arcs in ASOS into three parts: beyond the Wall with its clash of cultures discussions, the defence of the Wall and now with this chapter we move into the last section which features the election for a New Lord Commander.

In contrast to the previous chapters we've been looking at this is a light hearted chapter with plenty of jokes, which contrasts with Sam's observations of Jon who is more sombre throughout. The chapter is preceded by Arya finding safe passage to Braavos while here Sam returns to safety amongst his brothers and we have the first of a few chapters with Jon and Sam as POVs in the same place; followed by Jon shifted into a new position by being offered Winterfell while here Sam is shifted into becoming an active plotter by the end of the chapter, the ringleader for the campaign to prevent the election of Janos Slynt. So we have a double theme of safety and change emerging from this group of chapters.

The whole chapter is a day in the life of Samwell with some flashbacks. We're with him on a visit to see Gilly and Val as well as to watch Gilly breast feeding Mance's son. Then he assists Maester Aemon (despite his earlier dislike of seeing blood) in the infirmary before counting votes, before some late night plotting with Pyp and Grenn.

Observations

• The situation that Sam and Gilly find is not quite the "someplace warm" that they were told to find in Sam II or that Sam described in Sam III
  
• “Sam had heard all the stories about what wildings did with captured crows. He shuddered” of course ironically they would probably have taken him on as a hero with open arms since he does know how to fight the dead!
  
• “I don't even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice, and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know no place has been set for me.” Compare with the dream a the beginning of Jon VIII.
  
• Sam swore to keep secret Bran's departure (three times for emphasis) for the life he owes Coldhands – the idea of a life for a life again.
  
• “Sam, you're a sweet fool. Open your eyes” shades of “You know nothing, Jon Snow”? Wisdom talking to naivety? Repeated three times for emphasis.
  
• “I never win anything,” Dolorous Edd complained. “The gods always smiled on Watt, though. When the Wildlings knocked him off the Bridge of Skulls, somehow he landed in a nice deep pool of water. How lucky was that, missing all those rocks?” “Was it a long fall?” Grenn wanted to know” Did landing in the pool of water save his life?” “No,” said Dolorous Edd. “He was dead already from that axe in his head...” Heh, one of my favourite Dolorous Eddisms.
  
• “Who are these five who keep voting for Three-Finger Hobb?”He wondered. “Brothers who want him out of the kitchens?” said Clydas. Heh
  
• Curious that Maester Aemon knows that Jon did not vote.
  

Analysis

The Situation at the Wall

We see the Wall through Sam's eyes. He's shocked at the destruction and upset by the losses – even of Rast (though presumably he doesn't know the degree of persuasion applied to prevent him from hitting Sam in AGOT). Stannis' men are serving as guards all over the place. Is this Stannis trying to keep his men busy? Or is this about showing who is in charge?

The Wall is a hotbed of gossip and different stories are circulating. About Melisandre sacrificing a man to win a fair wind to the north, about Stannis' magic sword (which many have seen), the gelding of rapists and Ser Alliser has been spreading stories about Jon putting a negative gloss on his activities.

Politics: the election of a Lord Commander

We learn that the Brothers have already been voting for ten days, the winner needs at least a two-thirds majority and that there is a secret ballot with universal suffrage. To get round the fact that most of the Watch are illiterate, tokens are used for voting. You might not want to call the elections democratic since the commanders of the other two castles cast votes on behalf of their own garrisons – presumably because of the distance these won't reflect the wishes of those men.

Initially there were thirty candidates, but at this stage in the election Cotter Pyke, Ser Denys Mallister, Janos Slynt, Othell Yarwyck, Three-Finger Hobb and Dolorous Edd are all still in the running with Bowen Marsh and Alliser Thorne among nameless others having withdrawn.

Jon is convinced that Janos will win and analysis of the voting trends show that he is the only candidate gaining votes. This seems a bit curious since many of the recruits to the watch seem to be convicts and Janos was for years King's Landing's most senior policeman. Clearly the Night's Watchmen are a forgetting and forgiving lot. Clearly “halfway between the flames and the drafts” he's a compromise candidate, perhaps is chief advantage is that unlike Marsh, Yarwyck, Pyke and Mallister people don't know him.

If anyone wants to produce some election night graphics you are more than welcome!

The True King

“What good is a king who will not defend his realm?” thinks Sam...continuing the true king theme. Note “will not” rather than 'does not'. Sam sees a conscious choice not to do their duty, but he describes Stannis as having “cared” which strikes me as stronger than just being dutiful, implying a personal emotional bond. Since later Sam is going to the Citadel, down in the Reach which is supporting the boy on the Iron Throne I wonder if this attitude will put him at odds with the other students and faculty?

This thought comes just after thinking about Jon assuming the duty of training the recruits. Jon clearly has been relived of his duties, but has taken on this task. The last master of arms died in the fighting and Thorne isn't interested after his return from King's Landing. What good is a lord commander who will not train his men? This continues the trend from Jon VII and VIII of Jon assuming a leadership role. Although boredom and frustration clearly have a role to play here too.

Bastard, Traitor, Warg

The accusations made by Janos Slynt in the previous Jon chapter are repeated here in the stories coming from Thorne. The interesting point is that they are all central components of Jon's identity. Each a fact. They are not an issue in themselves – the question is the relationship that Jon and everybody else has to those concepts, a point already made famously by Tyrion in Jon I AGOT.

Traitor I think is the most interesting point, and I'll use it in discussing Jon's identity because of what it says about his divided allegiances. Three times, iirc, to the end of ADWD he has to decide between the Watch or Winterfell. There hasn't been so far a compromise position, he has to be a traitor to one (at least :laugh:). Likewise with Ygritte, staying in the cave was a dream (very Platonic). In the real world there has to be a choice, her world or his world. Neither could reach a compromise condition in the North as it was.

Sam's relationship to Jon

First we see Sam observing Jon: “he watched Jon watch. Jon is smiling. A sad smile” “Jon gave her a weary look” “Jon's smile was gone”.

Sam looks to Jon for advice and for confirmation that a lie might be “not without honour” which already the way we saw him behaving in Jon III ACOK, Sam's thoughts about the election are driven by concern for Jon.

At the risk of anticipating too much the upcoming few chapters I'll limit myself to observing that Sam is aware of Jon's wounds, physical and emotional. Although Sam does look to Jon as a leader (perhaps even his personal Saviour), knowing how deep his wounds are I have to wonder how wise his eventual action will be.

Yet thinking back to Jon III ACOK there is something interesting here, as Jon says Sam brought Gilly out which was the task that Sam had hoped that Jon could accomplish. They have both had very different experiences beyond the Wall. Sam, oddly, ought to be the more conventional hero of the two of them - he's got the girl and killed the bad guy!

[-Winterfellian-]

That is an nice twist on that familiar theme. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely as Lord Acton said. The rulership we are seeing here is at an absolutely basic level. One person working to protect the community with no structure and no support . At the other end of the spectrum we get the likes of King Bob who has structures and institutions to be his fool, champion and singer etc in place but he has lost sight perhaps of the basic point and duty of being a King?

About the idea that power corrupts I think is linked to what Varys tells a dying Kevan:

Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

Varys goes on to cite Tommen as one who sees kingship as his right but it is safe to say that Stannis is another. Furthermore, the last one has made some questionable choices and deals in quest for power. Is not even absolute power that corrupts him, but merely the search for it. His “least self-serving” action comes after Davos points to him that he had the car before the horse.

The notion of using power to serve others seems to be quite an alien concept to the Westerosi Kings we have encountered so far, hence probably why it corrupts them to the levels we have seen.

Mance, while clearly putting his people first, is incapable of ruling over them and thus protect them as he is back with no support system whatsoever.

I feel Jon admires the first part of the sentiment along with Mance’s ability to overcome unite such a range of people with his appeal to the man, but ultimately he is way too pragmatic as to be quite as captivated with the wilding life as has been proposed by Bran Vras, to not see the futility of such a system when it comes to protecting the weaker ones. He pretty much enounces this sentiment during his conversation with Ygritte on a smaller scale; and the same misgivings are what bring him to ask Mance if he can rule over his friends, thinking on a much larger scale.

ETA- Sorry for the derail. Only after posting I realized we have move on to Sam's chapter

[Lummel]

That's ok Winterfellian, I thought it was safe to post, but no I was too quick!

I like your point that it is not the holding of power that corrupts but playing the Game of Thrones to win itself is corrupting, I agree that we can see that and Stannis is the classic case in terms of what he does and is prepared to do in his pursuit of a Crown that he believes is his by rights. But the same is true of other major political figures too.

For me the the temptation and tension for Jon between the Wildling and the Northern way is expressed most succinctly when he is confronted by the Old Man and told to kill him. For Jon that is unacceptable - the stark should protect the weak and punish wrong doers, the starks promote order and a girl is safe to walk on the Kings road in her birthday clothes (or something like that) as the Clansman tells Bran and his party. For the wildlings - well the man should be able to protect himself! And if he can't...what kind of a place is there for a man like Sam beyond the Wall?

[bemused]

Can I just jump in?

I've been reading through a bit and want to say how much I love Bleiz' point about Jon's hilt-fashioning. Yet another reason to be in awe of GRRM's careful construction. Every word can count down the road.

It's really hard not to get ahead of oneself , but I'll try..

In regard to Mance only mentioning that wildlings follow fighters, I think the point is well made that before the rude awakening of Stannis Attacks!, he has every reason to believe he has the hot hand.. the NW couldn't hope to keep turning him back, undermanned as they were.. and though we can't know to what extent Mormont might have been willing to negotiate , Mance knows there are some men who can see reason in the watch (e.g. Qhorin ) .He also knows he can outwit the man Mormont left in charge ,( Bowen). As far as he knows, he'd be dealing with exhausted defenders, who'd know they couldn't keep it up forever. Why mention the ace you have up your sleeve ? If you're trying to sell someone something it's counter productive to mention you're a crack salesman beforehand.

Mance couldn't know that he'd have 1) a pompous dolt, Slynt ..and 2) his manipulator, Thorne , a man who resents his service in the watch , and who is to a large degree motivated by a personal vendetta , as potential negotiators for the other side. Slynt is too stupid to see the wisdom of negotiating , but Thorne ought to know better and is definitely not stupid , so I can only surmise he cares more about ensuring Jon's death than saving the watch.

I think it was definitely a bad plan to try to assassinate Mance (unless they'd had knowledge of the intervention by Stannis ). The Watch would still be horrendously out numbered , and even with the leadership split , all the wildling leaders would still have one goal in mind - to get south of the wall. Mance had already accomplished the formidable task of getting them all in one place at the same time. Even if they couldn't work together efficiently without him , some would probably have made it , at further cost to the Watch ( and ultimate gate opening) ...and there was always the chance that assassinating Mance would actually bring them together , rather than split them apart. (Something that may come into play for another character in ADWD).

I don't see Thorne as having a finger on the pulse of the NW so much as trying to create the pulse he wants it to have...Just a little niggle, and I hope not too far afield , but I often see Thorne defenders ( or Jon blamers) point out that Jon was Thorne's favourite at first. I disagree with this heartily. It was obvious Jon had formal arms training and it would be impossible to treat him like the totally untrained recruits... At first, he used Jon to show up the other boys , knowing that they would see Jon as his favourite, thus sowing seeds of resentment against Jon , and causing Jon to feel the others unfairly hated him for his ability. When Jon changes his behaviour after being told a few home truths by Noye, Thorne changes his tactics, too. I don't think there was ever any real liking for Jon . ( There are other clues about Thorne along the way, but I'll leave them aside, since they're quite removed from the chapter in question)

Skipping ahead, during Jon's questioning by Thorne and Slynt , we see Thorne use the same tactics he used back in AGoT when Jon attacked him - smearing Jon and his family to others within Jon's hearing , when Jon was not in a position to do anything about it. Even though Thorne could not have expected the violence of Jon's reaction the first time , he now knew it was possible ..and sure enough , we see the tipping point comes when he includes Benjen in his slander.

Of course , Jon has become less easy to provoke , but we but we see that the first occasion was not just an anomaly ..Jon can be tipped into rage and in that rage, he displays a greater than normal strength and intensity ( we'll see a third example later ).The fact that Jon, himself in rough shape , still managed to lift Thorne off his feet by the throat is notable. Jon appears to have something of a berserker about him....Looking ahead into unwritten territory , I suspect something more will be made of this , but it's definitely just a suspicion at this point.

Now, heading down in the cage , Jon realizes that the planning behind the suicide mission is Thorne's not Slynt's. I think this is planted here for future reference , and I don't just mean the election.

ETA; OOPS! I was too slow.. Started it yesterday morning , but many interruptions.. I'll catch up..

[Lummel]

Welcome Bemused, it is a pity that you weren't with us from the start you might have enjoyed expressing your opinion on Thorne and his changing interactions with Jon in a few places. Certainly an interesting notion that he might have wanted to provoke an attack on Slynt or himself which I suppose could well have been a death penalty offence at that point of time. Too bad for Thorne that Jon had developed his sense of humour in the mean time...

Is it odd that Sam doesn't pay much attention to Thorne considering that it is his POV chapter, or does Sam just accept the treatment that he got from Thorne as normal for Westeros?

[Bran Vras]

Bastard, traitor, warg. Lummel seems to like that. Surely traitor is the most tangible accusation. It seems to have connotations of two kinds: oathbreaker (refers to the death of Qhorin and the affair with Ygritte) and enemy (wildling).

The accusation of bastardy becomes truly infamous when associated with usurpation. Thus the acceptance of Winterfell would make of Jon the familiar figure of the bastard who has taken his father’s seat – while his trueborn sisters are still alive.

We should not dismiss the warg accusation. It points to the fact that wargs are not exactly popular in the folklore of the 7K. Perhaps for good reason. The first hints we have do not come from the most reputable sources. First Roose Bolton in Harrenhal spoke of a time when great pack of wolves were roaming the land. Then the Freys used the warg accusation to justify the Red Wedding (Grey Wind’s head on Robb’s body and later the lies served to Manderly). It’s interesting in itself that the Freys think that having eliminated a warg (a warg-king!) could exonerate them. Meanwhile, we see the terror spread by Nymeria and her great pack in the Riverlands. Finally, Haggon the skinchanger told Varamyr that wargs are hunted mercilessly in the south. I don’t mean to imply that warging is necessarily nefarious, but it appears that the westerosi folklore considers as incompatible wargs and human civilisation. (And yes, it’s perhaps worth taking seriously Roose and the Freys.) The idea that the man becomes the wolf and the wolf becomes the man is in any case quite worrying.

Edit: perhaps I should say that wargs have not universally fallen into disrepute. Mormont seems to have understood and wants Jon's wolf for the great ranging, for instance.

Jon’s taste for the Free Folk: Allow me to make my point from another angle. By nature, subjective narration contaminates the impressions of the reader with those of the mediating character. When we first met Mance, I thought that (at last?) we had a person whose life was worth living. A man who has taken control of his destiny, who managed to combine freedom with an ambition which was a mean and not an end, whose moral standing is impeccable oathbreaking notwithstanding, who is own harpist and his own fool, who knows all the songs on both sides of the Wall, who could live with the woman he thought was precious and unique, and a famous swordsman. At least, Mance was successful in projecting this image on Jon. Perhaps the Halfhand had the same impression ("Mance was the best... and the worst of us, and never learned to obey"). Like all young men who aspire to greatness, Jon is looking for great men to emulate (the Young Dragon, his father, his uncle). Without presuming on his success, it’s already interesting that Mance saw that he could present himself as a model to Jon.

Surely it was only a model of an oathbreaker, and Jon was then determined to keep his vows. But it might have left its mark for later events.

I agree that Mance was an ineffective war leader in Jon's eyes. From a certain point of view, I am not sure it diminishes his standing though. (For an anarchist, giving orders is more humiliating than receiving them. :) )

[Fire Eater]

Growing up a bastard in his grandfather's castle?

WF was Lord Rickard's before it was Ned's

What good is a king who will not defend his realm?

One of the king's titles is "Protector of the Realm." In the feudal structure, a king derives his legitimacy in the eyes of his vassals by being able to defend their lands against threats. That is something Cersei fails to understand while Jon seems to be fulfilling the title of "Protector the Realm."

[fantasmas]

It does seem like wargs are rather unpopular and feared in the seven kingdoms. IIRC, Sansa is frightened by these accusations made against her brother by the Lannisters. Of course, the Starks are wargs in addition to being wolves. Wolves also have associations with being these malevolent creatures in stories as well.

GRRM could be playing with our notions of good/bad and how that works with the series' protagonists that tend to swing back and forth in the morality department.

[bemused]

Thanks for the welcome, Lummel... I wish I'd been here earlier, too. I can positively predict I'll have more to say about Alliser , though.. I'm reading like a fiend now.. but I'll still only be able to type like a snail, so I may always be a half step behind.

Poor Sam.. I think Thorne's treatment must just have seemed more of the same as his father had dished out , but without the tempering influence of his mother. And I don't think Lord Randyll would quite have encouraged a bunch of common young men to have at Sam so freely.. at least not at Horn Hill .

Just riffing off your observations and analysis... I too love Edd's story about Watt , and it tickles my antennae.

Earlier , Sam and Gilly run into the party from the Shadow Tower -

Gilly heard horses behind them, and turned to see a column of black riders coming from the west. “My brothers,” Sam assured her. “No one uses this road but the Night’s Watch.” It had turned out to be Ser Denys Mallister from the Shadow Tower, along with the wounded Bowen Marsh and the survivors from the fight at the Bridge of Skulls.

Then we learn from Jon, in conversation with Sam -

" ... Marsh has removed me from duty, for fear that I’m still a turncloak.”

“It’s only a few who believe that,” Sam assured him. “Ser Alliser and his friends. Most of the brothers know better."

And - "... Ser Alliser has been putting it about that the only time I bared my sword was to defend our foes. I failed to kill Mance Rayder because I was in league with him, he says.”

“That’s only Ser Alliser,” said Sam. “Everyone knows the sort of man he is.”

I'll come back to Jon's response...

When Sam notices Slynt in the " best place" in the hall -

He was alarmed to see Bowen Marsh beside him, wan-faced and haggard, his head still wrapped in linen, but listening to all that Lord Janos had to say. When he pointed that out to his friends, Pyp said, “And look down there, that’s Ser Alliser whispering with Othell Yarwyck.”

And of course next, Bowen withdraws, endorsing Slynt and shakes loose some of Mallister and Pyke's votes as well . Slynt goes from having 1/8 of the votes to almost 1/5..but these can't all have been based on very firm conviction, since Othell also gained.

Here we're getting the beginnings of the movement that will culminate in the drama of Jon's last chapter . Bowen sort of sneaks back onto the page, instead of making a grand entrance like Thorne and Slynt (GRRM keeping it low key) and I think there are clues here that are easy to overlook.... Bowen obviously listens more to Thorne and Slynt than Aemon and the men who fought with Jon ,because he removes Jon from duty for things that only Ser Alliser and his friends believe... quite extreme since Jon would not now have command (even if you didn't believe him , he couldn't do much ) and Mance has been defeated by Stannis and is now captive.

We know Bowen defended Thorne's treatment of his recruits back in AGoT , characterizing Thorne's insulting nicknames for his men as "droll". We now see Bowen coming under Slynt's influence (How bright is that ?) while Thorne shmoozes Othell.... However ,Othell establishes what I think is a pattern in this chapter , being led right to the brink of a bad decision and then opting out. Another thing I think should be noticed. ( I suspect we may see him repeat this later..)

After all this we get Edd's story about Watt's "lucky" end and I suspect that's GRRM telling us to "Remember the Shadow Tower". We don't know what happened there in detail , yet. If Edd's to be believed at all ..Watt was in Jon's battle, but was knocked off the bridge of skulls with an axe in his head.. How long did the fighting go on there? Were there multiple skirmishes ? What was Watt doing there ? How did Bowen get his injury ? Is there something more than the injury itself to explain his sudden lack of confidence ,or even fear ?.. (Fear implied already,IMO, in his over zealous suspending Jon from duty.) ... Have I missed something ... or is something missing in this picture ?

Moving on to Jon and Sam , sometimes one sees a given situation more clearly, sometimes the other.When Jon wakes him up to what's going on with the election, sam immediately begins to look for a remedy...They each can see past the other's insecurities , so I think Sam is right when he says how little support Thorne has and that most brothers don't see Jon in such a negative light. But I like the way Jon's response is written -

“What everyone knows is that Ser Alliser is a knight from a noble line, and trueborn, while I’m the bastard who killed Qhorin Halfhand and bedded with a spearwife. The warg, I’ve heard them call me. How can I be a warg without a wolf, I ask you?” ... Here's another version of the most frequent charges.

Bastard - well yes ,as far as anyone knows , thus far.

Turncloak - under orders and forced to defend himself

Oathbreaker - Ygritte , yes -(inconsequential) and perhaps a more prophetic meaning in that it increasingly appears it will be necessary to "break" the oath down to it's essential components.

Warg- not quite developed yet ,but yes. ( and maybe a very good thing , too )

I think Sam will continue to be proven right , beyond the choosing, in that Jon is accepted and approved of more widely than he fears. There will probably be a greater acceptance of skinchanging and of wargs, through Jon.( If only in the North ) If he is appreciated and followed because of other qualities , being a warg will be an unusual attribute , but won't undermine his position, and may come to be seen generally as an awe-inspiring asset . Just my feeling . We'll see as we go ahead.

[Lummel]

Before getting too caught up on Thornes it struck me that the opening of the chapter is very unusual. We open on a scene of breast feeding. So we have this image of nurturing, a bit Madonna and Child, after chapters, well actually both Jon and Sam's arcs that have had a very military focus. Fatherhood is denied them, they've sworn to father no sons, then they have been training to fight, then they have been ranging, with a view to fighting, then they have been fighting for many chapters. Now we have breast feeding. And it is the sight of this that makes Jon smile - not your typical action hero?

[Julian Rayne]

Observations: The "lie not without honor" brought to mind Ned and Arya. Jon isn't parental towards Sam but does his attitude and protectiveness count as avuncular?

With all the scuttlebutt about Stannis's human sacrifice, Sam fails to note that said sacrifice was his own grandfather. Similarly he shows no familial interest in Selyse or Shireen. Is that a commentary on just how patriarchal Westerosi or Reach culture is? Or has he just completely accepted the "Night's Watch is my family now" concept?

[Lummel]

...Sam fails to note that said sacrifice was his own grandfather...

Interesting! Explain how Sam was related to him!

[Julian Rayne]

Samwell's mother Melessa Florent is the daughter of Alester Florent and Melara Crane.

That makes Alester Florent Sam's maternal grandfather, Ser Axell Florent his great uncle, Queen Selyse his first cousin once removed and Shireen Baratheon his second cousin.

For some reason he never thinks of any of this even when some of those people are at the Wall.

And this isn't relevant to the Jon re-read, but when Brightwater Keep was given to Garlan Tyrell, it was [insult || provocation || injustice] to Randyll Tarly as with Alester and his son Alekyne attainted, Brightwater Keep should have passed to Melessa Tarly.

[Lummel]

Interesting. I imagine that the details of what is happening down south aren't reaching the Wall. The rumour is that "she burned a man alive at Dragonstone so Stannis would have favorable winds for his voyage north" (grenn speaking). Grenn is some kind of lowlife, he's not going to know that Florent was Sam's kin even if he had the name of the man burnt alive to win the winds.

Samwell thinks of his father serving the boy king on the Iron Throne, comparing this implicitly with the King who cares by coming north, but he doesn't reflect on the shake up in land ownership. My guess is that he doesn't know about it, on the other hand thinking back to his dream in Samwell III in which he feasts all his comrades from the Wall at Horn Hill and carves the roast with Heartsbane I suppose it could be that the Watch is his family in a way that his biological kin aren't.

I do find it odd that he doesn't think of his cousin Selyse though, but then again they are not the same generation :dunno:

[Bran Vras]

Julian Rayne has pointed something interesting. I can elaborate somewhat.

Curiously, Sam has obliterated all his mother’s family from his mind. Later in Oldtown, he would never think that his aunt Rhea, Mellara’s sister, is Lady Hightower. Does his father loom too large? Randyll Tarly himself has been hostile to the Florents (his in-laws) at Bitterbridge, when Lord Alester rallied Stannis after Renly’s death.

However one takes it, Sam’s attitude is paradoxal. In this chapter, Sam has lectured Gilly about banners, without mentioning that he is a Florent by his mother.

“The big one, the gold with the black stag, that’s the royal standard of House Baratheon,” he told Gilly, who had never seen banners before. “The fox-and-flowers is House Florent. The turtle is Estermont, the swordfish is Bar Emmon, and the crossed trumpets are for Wensington.”

That doesn’t seem to prevent Sam from thinking about his mother.

I thought I might send her to Horn Hill. To my mother and sisters and my... my f-f-father.

Interestingly, Ser Denys Mallister reminds Sam of both his grandfathers, including Lord Alester, during the next Sam chapter.

Your lady mother is a Florent, I recall. One day I must tell you about the time I unhorsed both of your grandfathers in the same tourney.

Since the always courteous Ser Denys does not offer condolences to Sam, I assume the death of Lord Florent is not widely known at this point. Later in ADwD, Jon would recall being told of Alester’s burning.

Axell Florent’s brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it.

Since Aemon left Castle Black with Sam, I hardly see how could Sam have not been told of his grandfather’s death. The only possibility is that Aemon wanted to spare Sam of the news. But Sam is smart and should inquire about Lord Florent since the Florent banner is with Stannis. Beside, it’s also curious that Jon never seems to realize the connection between Alester Florent and Sam (and Axell is Sam's great-uncle).

How to make sense of all of this?

[butterbumps!]

nice work, lum

After all this we get Edd's story about Watt's "lucky" end and I suspect that's GRRM telling us to "Remember the Shadow Tower". We don't know what happened there in detail , yet. If Edd's to be believed at all ..Watt was in Jon's battle, but was knocked off the bridge of skulls with an axe in his head.. How long did the fighting go on there? Were there multiple skirmishes ? What was Watt doing there ? How did Bowen get his injury ? Is there something more than the injury itself to explain his sudden lack of confidence ,or even fear ?.. (Fear implied already,IMO, in his over zealous suspending Jon from duty.) ... Have I missed something ... or is something missing in this picture ?

glad to see you! I agree with your post quite a bit. If Sam's to be believed, it doesn't really look like Thorne, Slynt's and Bowen's views of Jon are tremendously widespread. Even a vocal minority can be powerful, of course, but in terms of numbers, I don't think there's any "majority" to speak of right now-- everyone's pulling in opposite directions, and there doesn't seem to be anyone who cares all that much about Jon's alleged enormities other than Thorne's cronies.

Other than Thorne, whom Jon gave a fairly sufficient reason to hate him, the people who tended to lambaste Jon as "bastard" and "warg" were brothers like Chett and co. That is, they weren't offended by him so much for these "crimes," but because Jon was chosen by Mormont, was rising, and interfered with their livelihood in terms of giving Sam the steward position. I'm trying to say that yes, "traitor, bastard, warg" are the terms being hurled as negative propaganda, but the real issue the brothers have are based on impositions Jon's presence might have personally caused, or a legit personal grudge, such as with Thorne. These terms are kind of the rallying cries behind which the brothers express their independent annoyance with Jon, but not necessarily the issues they actually take with him. It gives their petty grievances a veneer of genuine outrage.

Also, I think seeing Thorne's position as less about the pulse of the Watch and more about trying give the Watch the pulse he wants is spot on.

I'm really intrigued by the excerpt I quoted above, though. Are you suggesting that the Weeper hadn't actually attacked at the Bridge of Skulls, and that there had been some other skirmish? Like Watch v Wights, or even an intra-Watch mutiny?

[bemused]

I'll try not to dwell too much on the Thorne-y problems that have been nagging at me for so long. But I did want to note them , then tuck them away for future reference.

Wow ! I had completely forgotten about Sam's mother. Very interesting. Of course Sam is not one to put himself forward, and Selyse and Shireen ( and Axel) don't arrive at CB until well after he's departed. This may be a stroke of luck for him - I can just imagine Selyse summoning him at every whim. . I wonder if he actually knows who was sacrificed by Mel, because he'd be getting his gossip after it had filtered down through the NW, and just thinks of the sacrifice as "a man".

The breast feeding scene conveys a lot. ..Jon now fully understanding the things Benjen said to him way back at the feast in WF... a fuller realization of what (he thinks ) he can never have... Jon has always been sympatico with children. He's the one who guides Bran through the execution in AGoT. We know his special relatioship with Arya. We see him gently usher Rickon back into line at the feast. Certainly not your typical action hero in that respect.

Is it too much at this stage , considering that it does follow more military chapters, to read a sense of this is what the fighting is for ?

I think we see him gradually moving into his expanding role as protector here. And I disagree (slightly ? in tone?) with those who say Jon "wants to be the one to make everything right". I feel it's much more spontaneous, or innate than that. ( His own natural tendencies combined with being raised by and observing Ned ? ) He simply does what he can , according to the influence or authority he has at the moment. He protects Sam.. cannot protect Gilly at Craster's.. protects Dalla , Val and the baby during the battle .. and I like the way GRRM constructs his words to Sam when they were reunited..

Jon Snow had smiled to see him too, but it was a tired smile, like the one he wore now. “You made it back after all,” he said. “And brought Gilly out as well. You’ve done well, Sam.”

... putting Gilly's rescue next to "you've done well" - accentuates that Jon thinks everybody should behave the same way when possible, not in order to be named a hero, just because it's the right thing to do.

[Ragnorak]

Some initial observations...

Mance is a Rhaegar figure-- the harp, the black and red colors. A few people have composed the extensive list of parallels including our recent visitor Bran Vras (I'd link it but I can't seem to find it at the moment.) Stannis has his own parallels with Robert the best of which he voices himself. Stannis besting Mance is a bit of a Robert/Rhaegar parallel which makes the treatment of Mance's son a contrast to Aegon. Val is a sister to Dalla so not perfect Elia stand in, but Elia's rape and the sack of Kings Landing is a huge contrast to the only three rapes we see here that all result in gelding. Stannis is king so it isn't Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn deciding who should be king but the LC election touches on that theme and the need for politics in the aftermath of victory. The Watch, the ones with the institutional hatred of Wildlings, call Mance's son “the little prince” and “born-in-battle.” The vanquished would be king has his son treated quite differently by this Baratheon.

The chapter is all about politics and it is curious how we see marriage come up so frequently. Jon and Ygritte, Sam and Gilly, Stannis and Mel, Stannis and Selyse, and even Stannis and Cersei as the long shot comparison to the inability for a "marriage" between Cotter Pyke and Denys Malister.

Jon is in a somewhat parallel situation to when he first arrived in terms of his isolation and feelings of alienation from his would be brothers. Noye is the one whose words were a catalyst for ending that isolation just as Noye's words were the ones that initially absolved Jon before the battle. Noye has passed on and his words can no longer defend or help Jon. To a degree Noye's judgment likely carries weight with some (and ironically Stannis most of all) but not in any way that can defend Jon openly or politically from the current events and opponents. There's also a bit of Sam returning the favor Jon did for him back in GoT. Jon got the group of friends together and plotted against Thorne to protect Sam. The chapter ends with Sam doing that same thing. Next chapter will continue that parallel when Sam goes to Aemon much like Jon did. The parallels aren't perfect but it is probably the differences that are the most telling.

Very nice work, Lummel. It is a tough call but I suspect this may be my favorite Eddism.

I also noticed Aemon's awareness of Jon not voting and it stands out. We can assume based on his words to Jon in the tunnel a couple chapters back that he thinks Jon should lead, but I'm not sure we get any specific hints here as to what he might be thinking. We can speculate but I don't think we have many clues. His comment about how the election not being good for an individual candidate differs from whether it is good for the Watch can be taken as respect for the electoral process as well as a criticism of Slynt who seeks power for himself and not the good of the Watch.

A cascade of seashells, stones, and copper pennies covered the table. Aemon’s wrinkled hands sorted with surprising speed, moving the shells here, the stones there, the pennies to one side, the occasional arrowhead, nail, and acorn off to themselves.

Who is what symbol? Cotter Pyke as the seashell seems likely. That makes Slynt either a penny or a stone. Nothing jumps out but perhaps someone else sees some symbolism in the tokens.

Welcome Bemused, and I'm glad you've decided to stay with us Bran Vras. Very nice discussion so far. I'll try and post some replies later and maybe touch on Jon's dream.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

It's got to be the favorite Edd moment when u imagine him in the middle of a battle thinking damn thats lucky

Arrow head probably equals Edd, considering it's Jon's token during the election and Edd deferred to him

[bemused]

'Bumps!.. Oh , rats !.. I said I needed to catch up.. Watt was only a straw man in the battle at CB (fitting!) ;) .. So much for my memory... However , I still think there's more to know about the events at the Shadow Tower, but later , for that..it would be getting ahead of the game.

Bran ..your post is illuminating re: Sam's family ..I don't know what to make of it ...perhaps the Marriage ties between Sam's parents just didn't bind as tight as it was hoped at the time ? Maybe Sam never had much interaction with the Florent side ?..You know, different allegiances.. OTOH , in Oldtown, he shows familiarity with Leo Tyrell.

Ragnorak ..I'm really struck by those parallels, and I often feel ,with GRRM's parallels , that the little differences make all the difference... E.G. I think , maybe, Dalla is more the equivalent of Elia, and Val is an important difference , an element missing from the earlier case.

With Aemon and Sam..I think Aemon knows Sam pretty well , and is indirectly inviting Sam to think what's best for the watch and to act.. If Aemon thinks Jon should lead, he knows Sam's loyalty and that even when he was less sure of himself , Sam was instrumental in course correcting Jon's path when he wanted to ride off to join Robb..