The Dothraki vs. the Ironborn: Who wins the cage match?

[Dorian Martell]

I did write "cage match," but I meant army vs. army, not one on one. My bad for leading y'all down a false path.

Oh, then the Dothraki, mounted with bows would slay a bunch of sailors on an open battlefield. But the IB could just retreat to their boats and sail away.

[Black Wolf Smith]

It all depends on the cage!!!! Man for Man...

on a boat (would be a forfeit) , on a shore, in a marsh, in or out of a castle Ironmen all the way.

On plains, in fields, or any other open spaces Dothraki.

A small village or town, could go either way.

[tydides]

actually i think that it is pretty easy to defend against a horse when you are on the high seas. i think if we had a battle like at Deepwood Motte, the odds are in the favor of the Ironborn. More realistically, mounted archers will pretty much always screw over an enemy force with little armor and strategy, two things the ironborn are lacking. up close, ironborn might actually win, if that somehow happens, because arrows are less effective up close with an axe in your face. Their curved sabers also probably cant pierce armor well. Even though they are lightly aromored, i think that pretty much anything can stop an arakh.

[The Merry Other]

actually i think that it is pretty easy to defend against a horse when you are on the high seas. i think if we had a battle like at Deepwood Motte, the odds are in the favor of the Ironborn. More realistically, mounted archers will pretty much always screw over an enemy force with little armor and strategy, two things the ironborn are lacking. up close, ironborn might actually win, if that somehow happens, because arrows are less effective up close with an axe in your face. Their curved sabers also probably cant pierce armor well. Even though they are lightly aromored, i think that pretty much anything can stop an arakh.

Lol. It's hard to prove you wrong there

[Welease Woger]

Dothrakis would never fight in the sea or without horses, so those scenarios are impossible. They would utterly destroy the ironborn in land.

But Victarion has Dragonbinder, so Viserion and Rhaegal may be wild cards in the upcoming battle.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

actually i think that it is pretty easy to defend against a horse when you are on the high seas. i think if we had a battle like at Deepwood Motte, the odds are in the favor of the Ironborn. More realistically, mounted archers will pretty much always screw over an enemy force with little armor and strategy, two things the ironborn are lacking. up close, ironborn might actually win, if that somehow happens, because arrows are less effective up close with an axe in your face. Their curved sabers also probably cant pierce armor well. Even though they are lightly aromored, i think that pretty much anything can stop an arakh.

That's wrong. The Ironborn are pretty well-armored and strategically and tactically, they are leagues and leagues above the Dothraki.

[Ramsay B.]

Well, it depends if King Euron is leading them...actually, it doesn't matter. Ironborn would win, either way.

[tydides]

That's wrong. The Ironborn are pretty well-armored and strategically and tactically, they are leagues and leagues above the Dothraki.

really? I thought, as a whole (not the nobles or captains) either couldn't afford armor or were too afraid to wear it on a boat. As for strategy, I highly doubt they have anything suitable for land combat. They are raiders, first and foremost. I guess I was wrong by saying they have no strategy, but I think that they well be very easily out maneuvered by a horde of horsemen. They wouldn't be able to employ any of their hit and run, fast, catching the enemy off guard tactics because the Dothraki have quite a few scouts and arrows to shoot down whoever runs away.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

really? I thought, as a whole (not the nobles or captains) either couldn't afford armor or were too afraid to wear it on a boat. As for strategy, I highly doubt they have anything suitable for land combat. They are raiders, first and foremost. I guess I was wrong by saying they have no strategy, but I think that they well be very easily out maneuvered by a horde of horsemen. They wouldn't be able to employ any of their hit and run, fast, catching the enemy off guard tactics because the Dothraki have quite a few scouts and arrows to shoot down whoever runs away.

You're confusing them with the crews of the Greenlanders. Victarion explicitly contrasted the armored Ironborn to them.

A Westerosi army could outmaneuver them, but not the Dothraki. The Dothraki know nothing beyond "Charge", they are the lousiest tacticians after the Lamb Men - and those are pacifists!

[Melpomene]

Definietely Ironborn.

In many ways (Tactifully, basic military resources, armour, weapons, castles/towns/buildings, architecture all that jazz) are more advanced than the Dothraki.

While the Dothraki are skilled in horsebacking, they just seem to use brute force and numbers over actual military talents. They depend on having a very large group, and mainly seem to only attack those who are obviously weaker than them, or are the same as them a la other Dothraki. They use basic psychological fear via rape and pillaging and random attacks. Altogether, not really a skillfully wise or disciplined group, more chaotic and unrefined, do-as-they-want individuallity structure, with a boss at the front that basically just tells them where to go and proves simple machoness, versus actually focusing on specific and future plans, group structure, physics, strategy, outsmarting, advancements, growth and so forth.

Now I know that is sort of ironic, since Iroborn use brute force and pillaged too, but they still have some leg ups over the Dothraki. They have more advanced methods in comparison, good leaders are more involved in strategy, and have fought against others with the same methods and advancements of their time. So, there is experience there.

The Dothraki haven't really fought against a bunch of Westerosi knight or soldiers.....they sound scary to Westeros but have yet to actually live up to it. I find overall, a group of disciplined, unisoned and heavily thoughtful/tactiful Westerosi knights would win over a bunch of wild armourless nomadic tribes. Also, I assume Westeros has the usual 'high end' structurally large Medieval weapons like catapults that could easily crush a hoard of upcoming Dothraki. I also suspect, that a Westeros (Ironborn included) would know how to hold out on war/stalemates/battle long term than the Dothraki would. Westerosi have experience in long campaigns and blockades than the Dothraki do. I can't see Dothraki hanging around for a very long time, let alone actually managing - how long could they last on mainly horse meat? weather changes? camping out in one spot? patience and mental strength? They are more like a quick hit and move on sort of people, not a lingering fight-it-out and psychological/intellectual-battling in the long run, with heavily complicated oral blackmailling. Their blackmailing thus far is just "Pay us and we won't attack".

Ironborn can have a higher access to more things, in retrospect, to metals, wood, fire, stones, water. Dothraki do not. Ironborn can handle both cold and hot, whereas Dothraki wouldn't really survive or handle in very cold weather.

It is almost reminisnent of the Romans versus the "Barbarians".

(For the record, I mean that the Ironborn are advanced in stuff like objects, not in personal social mentality. I find that part is waaay far behind, but that is another topic)

I don't even like the Ironborn (Minus Asha) but compared to the Dothraki in terms of versus...I see them winning. Also, even though the Ironborn are seafaring folk, they can still adapt to fighting on land when need be. The Dothraki can't do the opposite.

So altogether, those Ironborn have a lot of avaliable advantages.

[tydides]

You're confusing them with the crews of the Greenlanders. Victarion explicitly contrasted the armored Ironborn to them.

A Westerosi army could outmaneuver them, but not the Dothraki. The Dothraki know nothing beyond "Charge", they are the lousiest tacticians after the Lamb Men - and those are pacifists!

Didn't he contrast himself with the greenlanders and his own crew? Ya I probably am getting them mixed up. Sorry, thats just how I remember it, Guess I'll have to read the series again, after I finish the Dark Tower series

[Ramsay Gimp]

Didn't he contrast himself with the greenlanders and his own crew? Ya I probably am getting them mixed up. Sorry, thats just how I remember it, Guess I'll have to read the series again, after I finish the Dark Tower series

Part of the reason the Ironborn are so formidable in naval combat is because they wear armor at sea. They supposedly don't fear drowning, cuz of the Drowned God and all that

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

It's hard to say because we haven't seen the IB in an open land battle. They were defeated easily at Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin and Winterfell. They don't seem very skilled once you take them out of their ships. That's why Asha is so adamantly against the taking over Westeros plan. I think the IB are being a little over estimated here. The reason they had any success at all in the north is because it was left unattended. The same goes for the Shield Islands.

I do the think the Dothraki have an edge. Even if they were on foot. People do have a good point about them not being strategists. That's why we can't now for certain who'd win. However, I'm not sure if the IB are the best strategists either.

[Petite Psycophant]

The Iron Born would have to be the first to assault since the Dothraki wouldn't venture anywhere near the ocean. The Iron Born aren't as good on land as they are at sea but I reckon they are still rather decent and very fierce. My guess is their first assault would be a difficult one but in the end they'd lose against the Dothraki, retreat to their ships, try to think of a way to defeat them then lunch a second assault that will break the Dothraki.

[Ramsay Gimp]

There are plenty of Ironborn warriors who are as good as any greenland Knight or Dothraki. The reason they suck at land warfare is technological and tactical - they don't have horses or the capability to besiege castles (they can storm them just fine, though). It's not due to a lack of skill.

The Ironborn left behind at Moat Cailin were still successfully repelling attacks from the Northmen when Theon got them to surrender

[Horza]

Well done on finding the Tiger vs Shark of ASOIAF brackets.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Well done on finding the Tiger vs Shark of ASOIAF brackets.

:thumbsup:

[Michael Herman]

Bit off topic but I've an interesting thought on the cultures.

Both of them are based (somewhat) on real life historical peoples, the dothraki on the mongols, and the Ironborn on the vikings. However, I don't see either of them as being as deadly as the cultures they were based on:

the dothraki are successful primarily due to lack of resistance, Free Cities are happy to pay them tribute as fighting them off is just too much bother, also they have huge numbers and a fearsome reputation. But they wear no armour, unlike the mongols, who had leather and iron armour. There tactic, is just to charge at the enemy, unlike the mongols who won by outmanoeuvring enemy armies and drawing them into traps, they refuse to adapt, unlike the mongols who used the weapons and tactics of conquered people. They don't do sieges, they don't actually conquer, and there is no unifying figure.

The ironborn are few in number, compared to the mainland, the vikings however were capable of raising armies as large as the saxon kingdoms or any other of the lands they raided, they had discipline enough to fight in large open battles against trained opponents, were unmatched at sea for hundreds of years, and were able to control far more land than the ironborn ever could.

Quote about mongol military attitudes:

"Unlike the European armies, which placed enormous emphasis on personal valor, and thus exposed their leaders to death from anyone bold enough to kill them, the Mongols regarded their leaders as a vital asset. A general such as Subutai, unable to ride a horse in the later part of his career due to age and obesity, would have been ridiculed out of most any European army of the time.^[9] But the Mongols recognized and respected his still-powerful military mind, who had been one of the Genghis' most able subordinates, so he was cheerfully hauled around in a cart."

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

Dothraki.

[Veltigar]

Ironborn and it isn't even a challenge for them.