Bernie Mac

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  1. No, she does so they can be near each other. It is unclear whether she intended to cheat on Rhaegar or Robert. And then not again till Joffrey's conception. That is around a year where she was faithful to her husband and did not intend to cuckold him. Or 286. We don't know when he was born. But given the marriage was in 284 that is a still a year of Cersei not intending to cuckold the King. Perhaps if Tywin was Hand Robert would have been more discreet and Cersei became pregnant with his true heir before he releationship with Jaime started again. Yup. I am not disputing that. Robert is incredibly virile, Cersei seems healthy. It was only a matter of time before she got pregnant. My argument is that with Tywin as Hand both husband and wife are more discreet leading to a little more time for Cersie being willing to give birth to his son. No, the implication is that is where it started As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. "No," she had replied, "I want him horned." He'd already be horned if they had been sleeping with each other before then. Joanna suspected it might be a possibility and decided to prevent it. The twins are born in 266, Joanna dies in 273. They would have been incredibly young when she became suspicious. Sure. Just like Loras does. That does not mean sex with the married Queen is a definite. Why would he notice? He lives thousands of miles away. Robert does not notice, the vast majority of people who live in the Red Keep do not notice. Cersei is incredibly discreet as to be caught means not only their deaths but their children as well. "Did you think I was as blind as Father?" Tyrion rubbed his cheek. Tyrion certainly did not think Tywin knew. Wait what? Please give these examples of lack of discretion? A handful of people knew, one of them who had actual spies in the walls. Being discreet could not stop that. What previous knowledge? Two five year olds playing with each other? i'm sorry, but not every parent comes to the same conclusion that Joanna did.
  2. Robert was under no obligation to do that. He was obligated to do what was best for himself, his supporters and the realm in general and Viserys becoming King would endanger both his own life and that of the men who supported him in his war against his family.
  3. Considered, but never did. The author is pretty clear: Storm's End is a hugely formidable castle, and should have been able to hold out much longer, as it did during Robert's Rebellion when Stannis was inside rather than outside. And both Tyrion and Tywin knew that Stannis was a methodical commander rather than a daring one, and therefore would be unlikely to leave an enemy stronghold untaken in his rear. as is Stannis himself "Let me tell you how it will go. Lord Velaryon will urge me to storm the castle walls at first light, grapnels and scaling ladders against arrows and boiling oil. The young mules will think this a splendid notion. Estermont will favor settling down to starve them out, as Tyrell and Redwyne once tried with me. That might take a year, but old mules are patient." It was decent result, but you are exaggerating its greatness. Any capable commander should have been able to hold out a year, the teenage Stannis proved himself capable. The majority did. Infact Lord Florent, who made up the majority of Stannis' survivors, also wanted to sue for peace. He was executed for wanting this. Had Lord Florent been less loyal and simply took his men and left, Stannis would be in an even worse position. A victory is complete no matter the odds. The vast majority of battles in Westeros are won by the larger or better trained/equipped side. This was no different. The odds were hugely in Stannis' favor, just like the odds were hugely in Tywin's favor on the Blackwater or Robb's at the Battle of the Whispering Woods. It does not stop them thinking of those victories as anything more than complete. There is this bizarre mindset in the fandom that somehow is you win with a larger force it somehow does not count. No one in Westeros thinks like this, victory is what matters. According to the author all three navies are comparable However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros. Of course Stannis did not just have the Redwyne and Royal fleet but also the fleet of Oldtown. The odds were hugey in his favour and he won. Now let me reiterate, winning with larger numbers still counts, but trying to make out that Stannis only 'slightly outnumbered' his opponent is clearly wrong. It is something that a lot of fans do in this fandom, exaggerate the odds so the victories of their bias are more impressive. Not really as they were directionless. The Florents (and their in -laws the Cranes) chose Stannis, who was married to a Florent and was about to appoint a Florent as his Hand and a Florent as his Admiral. In fact the prospect of the next ruler of Westeros being 50% Florent should have been enough for them to originally declare for Stannis. Yeah, it is. Quite literally so as there was no way for Stannis to defeat his brother without the help of the (Red) God. No one expected this, not Renly's war council, Cat or even Davos. It was the biggest deus of the series. What you think might happen in the future has no bearing on his conversation. I am not here to talk about fan fiction, but about what actually happened. So far Stannis has fucked up in the North. ADWD sees Stannis men starving and dying by the day. His only hope is another Deus, which the Iron Bank may have given him at the end of ADWD. Which is it you are counting? If it is only Wars then Tywin has won two wars while Stannis and Robb 0. If it is battles, then Tywin and Robb have never came face to face. Tywin was at the Green Fork, Robb sent somone else, Tywin was at Harrenhal and Robb decided to head West and Robb's big plan in the Westerlands was to run away from Tywin and hope that he would be distracted while someone else took Kings Landing. And please, evidence for what was illegal about Tywin's actions. What on earth are you talking about? You don't have to be a Lord to raise forces. As Kevan Lannister points out in AFFC "I hold no lands, that is true. But I have certain incomes, and chests of coin set aside. My own father forgot none of his children when he died, and Tywin knew how to reward good service. I feed two hundred knights and can double that number if need be. There are freeriders who will follow my banner, and I have the gold to hire sellswords. You would be wise not to take me lightly, Your Grace . . . and wiser still not to make of me a foe." Anyone can raise forces if they have the coin to do so. And you keep on repeating that this is illegal when the two authorities on the subject, the King and the Warden of the West, make no such call. They renounced their fealty. They broke the Law and Tywin dealt with it. He has only broke the law if the King or his father said he did. Neither did, Tywin's action were entirely lawful. By all means quote a King or Warden of the West who disagrees with this as they are the only two powers who can label illegal. Furthermore the Reynes and Tarbecks did not think it was illegal, they did not petition either the King or Tytos, they instead renounced their fealty encouraged others to do so and paid the price. No one claimed he was commanding the Westerland forces. But can I have your source that he had no tactical responsibility? We know so little about this war that it is impossible to say either way. Tywin won it. He was the overall commander, when he Tyrells joined up the succeeded command to him. Something Mace acknowledges. I don't want to be rude, but you seem to not understand the chain of command. When the Redywne and Hightower fleets joined up with Stannis he had seniority and their victory of the Ironborn navy is accredited to Stannis as the overall commander. By all means, if you don't think Tywin was the overall commander of that battle provide a source as it simply coming off as sour grapes. You exaggerate Stannis accomplishments and seem to ignore Tywin and Ned's. Gregor did the chevauchee before the war broke officially broke out before Tywin's forces conquered. We are at first given his plan by Robb's side "but Galbart Glover says Lord Tywin is too smart for that, and Roose Bolton agrees. He'll stay close to the Trident, they believe, taking the castles of the river lords one by one, until Riverrun stands alone. We need to march south to meet him." which is pretty much confirmed to what had happened when Tyrion joins up with his father "Your father and I have been marching on each in turn," Ser Kevan said. "With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens …" "Leaving you unopposed?" Tyrion said. "Not wholly," Ser Kevan said. "The Mallisters still hold Seagard and Walder Frey is marshaling his levies at the Twins." The Westerlands had all but conquered the Riverlands until the North showed up. They did this in weeks. It was an impressive military strategy that seems to be ignored by the fandom. The Riverlands struck first. They kidnapped a Lannister and knew exactly what the consequences were. Tywin was more prepared than his opponents were. Good commanders plan for such possible actions, GRRM reveals this when he states that Tywin's pikemen are amongst the best trained in the realm. Although some lords do better than others. Tywin Lannister's infantry was notoriously well disciplined, and the City Watch of Lannisport is well trained as well... much better than their counterparts in Oldtown and King's Landing. There you go downplaying Tywin conquering the majority of the Riverlands. They were clearly not minor victories as the Riverlands was defeated until the North showed up. Can I have a source on that being a small Tully force? Even if you ignore all the Riverland soldiers who died at the Golden Tooth, Riverrun and the battles with Tywin's host taking a number of Riverland settlements Edmure was still able to raise 11k soldiers. Where were they during all of this? It was more than two victories. Tyrion cut off Kevan as he was listing them, but the Riverlands, apart from the Mallister and Frey lands, were under his control. It was pretty fucking impressive. Sure it was. Robb was unable to take on Tywin at Harrenhal, his plan was to hope that he could distract him while either Renly or Stannis attacked Kings Landing. That is a classic stalemate, no side was able to achieve victory. As Robb points out, he lacked the strength "How can we talk of peace while the Lannisters spread like a pestilence over my father's domains, stealing his crops and slaughtering his people? I say again, we ought to be marching on Harrenhal." "We lack the strength," Robb said, though unhappily According to both Tyrion and the author that had nothing to do with Robb and everything to do with Stannis trying to take Storm's End. You seem to be accrediting Robb for an action he never did. How does Edmure stop the Tyrells from going to Kings Landing? And the idiot Edmure saved Robb's life. Robb was injured and bedridden at the Crag when Tywin was heading West. Not only would the Tyrells have won without Tywin's command but Robb would have been defeated in the West. lol how do you figure that? His troops were free to come and go as they pleased. "I'll wager there were others who felt the same as Lord Karstark," her brother Edmure declared. "How can we talk of peace while the Lannisters spread like a pestilence over my father's domains, stealing his crops and slaughtering his people? I say again, we ought to be marching on Harrenhal." That is not the sign of an army under siege. Strategically that was prime location for Tywin, a castle big enough to host and feed his army while he in a position to react to both the South and the West. He took two castles. One of them, the Crag, is described as more ruin than castle. The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold. But it didnt. There was no pressure on Tywin to go home, notice that he only goes West when he thinks Stannis is stuck at Storm's End and then after the Blackwater makes no effort to go home leaving Robb in the West for a bit longer. He was under no political pressure to move. In Robb's own words he could not threaten the major settlements like Lannisport and Casterly Rock. He was a nuisance, wasting his own time. He could have joined up with Renly or Stannis and won, instead he lost once Tywin won on the Blackwater. Winterfell falling is a hell of a lot different to robbing some mines. Casterly Rock was in no danger as Tywin, being a decent commander, knew better than to leave his capital and home exposed. Wrong. There is simply no upside for Roose to try and deliberately get beat at that point. And clearly Robb saw nothing wrong with his performance in that battle as he leaves Roose to command the majority of his northern forces. Mace Tyrell claims it was Tywin's victory. Dude, you are grasping at straws. Tywin was the lead commander. The Tyrells were not working independently of Tywin. If you can find a source that states that they were I would be grateful to hear about it. We hear that time and time again? Then provide these quotes from the books. No one has disputed that. Tywin was still the lead commander. Being in the Van does not mean you are more in command, commanders like Tywin and Stannis choose to command from the rear Stannis was watching too, Tyrion knew. He'd never had his brother Robert's thirst for battle. He would command from the rear, from the reserve, much as Lord Tywin Lannister was wont to do. - Tyrion "Then do not court it so. Lord Tywin leads from the rear. Lord Stannis as well. You would be wise to do the same. A seventh death might mean the end of both of us." - Lord Beric And the Tyrells serve the Crown and Tywin is the Crown's commander in the field. He was the lead commander at the Battle of Blackwater. There maybe more Northmen in Stannis' host, does that mean he is not the overall commander? If there were more Redwyne and Hightower ships than Royal in the victory over the Ironborn does that no longer count as Stannis' victory? You seem to have one rule for Tywin and another for Stannis. Nope, he is feeding from the Riverlands. "True enough," Ser Brynden admitted. "And Tywin Lannister is no man's fool. He sits safe behind the walls of Harrenhal, feeding his host on our harvest and burning what he does not take. At no point in the books is it suggested that Tywin is taking food from the Crownlands. You should check with the author and Tyrion who state that Tywin moves West because of Stannis, not Robb. Maybe tell GRRM that. Or maybe explain why Tywin does not bother going West after he is victorious on the Blackwater. It is not. We have Robb needing Edmure to marry a Frey and blaming him for Stannis' deafest on the Blackwater. There is three days of battle. Had Tywin been allowed to ride past it is entirely possible that a raven would have reached a Westerland settlement near the border and alerted Tywin to the danger. There are so many variables that blaming Edmure looks pretty self serving on Robb's part. Not really. The Tyrells had 50k, Kings Landing had 8k. Stannis had 21k (much less after the chain). He would have easily been defeated without Tywin's leadership. Nope. The Tyrell Forces had already travelled hundreds of miles from Bitterbridge (which is located in the Reach). "Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear." We know from Arya that Tumbler'S Falls is in the Riverlands. The alliance had been finalised. Littlefinger had been granted the appropriate titles to give such an offer. As well as Gold, one of the Redwyne twins and an army of 340 Littlefinger also had it in writing. "I'll want my commission in writing. A document that will leave Mace Tyrell in no doubt as to my authority, granting me full power to treat with him concerning this match and any other arrangements that might be required, and to make binding pledges in the king's name. It should be signed by Joffrey and every member of this council, and bear all our seals." Occas Razor suggest that a 50-70k army does not travel hundreds of miles and execute and imprison Stannis' men if they had not already agreed to serve the Crown. They were. No one was surprised that Tywin would take offence to his son being abducted. Where do you come up with this shit? I hate to be rude, but so much of your argument is based on events that had not happened in the books. There was nothing illegal about hiring knights, every one has that power, and there is not a single source that says he made people pay money they did not owe. Seriously, what have you based this on? And do you know why Tywin had to hire those 500? Because years earlier the Reynes had slaughtered hundreds of Lannister troops. Lord Tytos had commanded his good-father sternly not to involve the Reynes “for we have no quarrel with Castamere,” but that did not stop Lady Tarbeck from sending to her brothers. Denys Marbrand and his knights were still two days ride from Tarbeck Hall when the Red Lion fell upon his camp in the night, slaying hundreds, amongst them old Marbrand himself. Dead soldiers have to be replaced. No, that is not true. But elsewhere, the collectors were met with sullen resistance and open defiance. Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin’s edicts, and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing. “The cub will soon grow weary of chasing his own tail,” he said. . . yet he set about strengthening the defenses of Castamere as well. Unluckily for the Reynes and Tarbecks they fought they could beat the teenage Tywin. House Tarbeck was the first to feel Ser Tywin’s wroth. Secure in his own strength, and that of his numerous friends and allies, Lord Walderan had oft been heard to boast that he had “no fear of lion cubs,” but the Lannister host descended on him so quickly that his vassals and supporters had no time to gather. They underestimated him, but they were both preparing for war. Sure, that is why a portion remained with the injured Robert. Tywin still beat them despite being further away and only reacting when he heard of their victory (which in itself would take time to reach him). The speed in which he took the Riverlands, took the Reynes and Tarbecks and took beat the rebels to Kings Landing and met up with thee Tyrells on the Blackwater is impressive. This is a consistent part of Tywin's command and you have shown zero evidence to prove otherwise. By who? Who in the books questions this? Give me a source. He still wins, saving Stannis in the process. And? I'm not really sure what this has to do with discussion. Ned did it. But he doesnt. According to the author there is Reach forces with Rhaegar on the Trident. Nor did he prevent Reach forces from leaving the Stormlands. This was simply a tactical blunder on the part of Rhaegar who informs Jaime that there will be changes when he comes back. He simply believed his 40k was enough to beat Robert's 35k. And it simply crazy to say that Stannis played a bigger role in Robert's Rebellion than Ned did. For starters he saved both Stannis and Robert in two of his victories. Without him and his Northern host the Rebellion would have been over long ago. Stannis played a bigger role in the Greyjoy Rebellion, but Ned played a bigger part Robert's Rebellion. I have only seen extreme Stannis fans use this logic. Robert is the overall commander, so he gets the most honour. Stannis, Robert's Master of Ships, gets the second most for the naval victory and then Ned and Tywin With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, and cut his way across the isles with steel and fire. Barristan is part of Robert's entoruage with no host of his own so would come after the King and the Wardens. Where is it said that Tywin commissioned the song? Also who said it was illegal? King Jaehaerys II had no problem with it. Tytos, the Lord of the Westerlands and Warden of the West, had no problem with it, Please tell me how it was illegal. You are coming up with a lot of points that are simply not supported by the text. It is a famous song. And it is good for propaganda, but Tywin is not famous for boasting. Please use evidence in the books to show when he does. It is Stannis who likes to boast about his achievements, about how he should have been King or listing all his victories. But you are wrong. The author is pretty clear in the links I provided. Okay. Not sure what this has to do with either their command ability or even their fathers. The Stark kids have magical abilities. That has nothing to do with Ned's ability as a commander or even a father. Tywin won. The Tyrells serve Tywin, chain of command. No, they don't. There was twenty thousand Lannisters left after the Battle of Blackwater. The Lannisters cleverly sent many of their men back home to prepare for winter, while keeping small forces(around 5k) that we have seen on Dragstone, with Jaime and with Daven. The war is over, paying for troops is a needless expense in peace time. After the Battle of Blackwater Tywin was Hand, Kevan was Master of Law, Tyrion Master of Coin and Jaime Lord Commander. While Tywin lived the Lannisters dominated the governance of Westeros. a year after his death that has changed. That is not on Tywin. Where is it said there is an end to Guest Rights? They are still an honoured custom He's won. His grandson sits the Throne and Lannister dominance in the Westerlands is still more secure than it was under his father's leadership (while Tywin was still a minor). Not really. Without that magical direwolf Robb never enters the Westerlands and Tywin is in a pretty healthy position. That is pretty unlucky for Tywin. Without his magical shadow assassin Stannis is stuck at Storm's End for months. It is only bad luck which exposes Tywin's move West. Tywin has been pretty unlucky. His kids fucked up by cuckolding the King and his grandson executed a hugely valuable hostage. Tywin has had some shitty luck. But magic is not accepted. Look at Cat, Davos and Brienne's reaction to the shadowbaby. This is a new phenomenon in Westeros warfare, something that Tywin had no way of strategizing against. Not exactly bad for Tywin from his perspective. He expected his son-in-law to go easy on him and he planned it right. He sent Gregor in without banners so they could deny involvement and Tywin did not officially attack the Riverlands till they sent a 4k army to the Golden Tooth, Westerlands territory. Tywin was desperately unlucky that Cersei fucked on the one responsibility she had, create legitimate heirs. He was also unlucky when his son posted no scouts, sent no warning to his sleeping army at Riverrun and that Robb's direwolf found a hidden pathway into the Westerlands that their own people were not aware of. Like all commanders, Tywin has had his fill of good and bad luck. Like all good commanders, Tywin has been able to exploit his good luck. Which powers? That is medieval nepotism, Lords rely on their family members, It hurts Tywin (Jaime and Stafford) just as much as it hurts Stannis But this is hugely unlucky on Tywin's part. The period in the war when he finally decides that Kings Landing is safe enough for him to deal with Robb is the moment Stannis attacks. This is bad luck on his part. In fact the odds were in Tywin's favour even without the Tyrells as it would have been 28k vs 21k with the Walls of Kings Landing adding an even better force multiplier for the Crown. What did Edmure really do? Tywin was hard to contact because he was on the move, Golden Tooth or an even nearer Westerland settlement may have been able to get word to him before it was too late. When did Tywin lose to Robb? They never faced each other on the battlefield and Tywin won the war. Under Tywin's command. This is not an opinion, it is a fact that is known from the Citadel to the Wall. Even Mace Tyrell acknowledges it. The struggle that the maesters were calling the War of the Five Kings was all but at an end. Mace Tyrell had been heard complaining that Lord Tywin had left no victories for him. As do the Riverlanders that are part of Robb's army Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. "If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?" Not only is it the common consensus amongst in universe characters but it is so in the fandom. Now you can argue that would not have been possible without the Tyrells, but that does not change the fact that Tywin was the Overall commander in that battle. Well first of all that is pretty common amongst both the medieval warfare and GRRM's writing. The larger army (or sometimes better trained and equipped) will always win. Part of being a successful commander is knowing when to fight, a good commander wants to fight when he knows that not only will he win but he will take on as few casualties as possible.
  4. I'm not playing the ignorance card. There is almost 30 pages of content. I will gladly try and back up my argument with evidence but let me know which statement(s) you would like me to focus on. Seriously chill out. You both are writing a lot. Suffice to say I agree with some of what you both say and also disagree with some of what you both say.
  5. And yet we saw in the regency of Aegon III that Hands and Regents are disposable. The precedent has been set. A dead King does not get to decide who rules after he is dead. Sure he did. His men drew their swords on the Royal family in the Throne room and as Robb tells the Greatjon; "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," In the eyes of Joffrey and Kings Landing Ned had betrayed his King. Ned did not have the legal authority to declare Joffrey a bastard, Robert did and a Grand Council could but until that time Joffrey was the legal King and Ned committed treason in the Throne room when he tried to arrest him and his siblings and Queen mother.
  6. Maester Luwin sighed. "Three hundred, perhaps four … among three thousand armored lances who are not knights." My claim was that we do not know how many of the 600 were horsed. We still don't. At no point did I claim that none were horsed, or even that all 600 were not horsed. I simply pointed out the fact that we have no idea how many of them were and yet in many threads you claim that all 600 were. I am sorry if it upsets you, but you make conclusions on the Norths numbers and population not backed up by the text. Sorry.
  7. jesus, the leaps you will make in your effort to make the North the best-est. 1 person among a 100 is still a 100 people. Get over it, there was 3k horse at Winterfell.
  8. Dead Kings don't get to decide what happens when they are dead. Any legal authority Ned may have had disappeared when he had his men draw their swords on the royal family. A king, even an underage one, outranks his regent. Ned committed treason in the Throne room.
  9. lol calm down dude, This is just a discussion, it is not worth getting upset about, Now I would love to do as you requested, What assertion of mine would you like me to back up with quotes?
  10. It is 3,000. You can't ignore the English language to suit your agenda. Those 300 -400 were among the three thousand. If they were extra GRRM would have said also or well as. Among is pretty clear. That 3k at Winterfell would be a mixture, from destriers to garrons, from heavy horse horse to light. Surely the evidence in ADWD? The difference between the Mountain clan horses, that are surviving, and the Stannis' heavy horse that are beyond useless. Yup. The Nothern and Frey cavalry certainly did. But usually against lower numbers or infantry. Their wins were based on surprise attacks, not superiority of their cavalry to the oppositions cavalry.
  11. That is still 3,000. Among means 'part of' not 'as well as'. There are 3,000 horsed soldiers, the 300 -400 knights are among them.
  12. This is something of an exaggeration. Stannis lasted as long as was expected of him. He expects Penrose to last a similar amount of time. It was a decent result from a young noble, but Storm's End is one of the most powerful castles in Westeros and is expected to last for a long time. Nope. We know that some of knights were willing to change sides. Though I find it odd that you are giving Stannis the credit for the loyalty of the troops and people inside House Baratheon. Were the people of Winterfell loyal to Bran or to House Stark in general? You are giving credit to Stannis for something that his family achieved, not him directly. You mean the vast majority of them? Stannis comments on just how 'loyal' the men with him are. By the end of the ADWD he does have a few loyal men, he also has many that have no other choice, that have lost their lands and titles and are now enemies of the Crown. Their only option is to stay with Stannis and hope that he is successful. lol slightly? Come on, he has the both the Royal and Reach Navy (including the Redwyne). He overwhelmingly outnumbered the Ironborn navy who wrongly assumed that the Reach would not support King Robert. It is a good victory, but lets not pretend that the odds were safely in Stannis'/the Crown's favour. Your kidding, right? We know from Dany that the garrison were trying to sell her and her family to the Baratheons. There was no battle needed for this, the Targs fled and the garrison surrendered. You mean his in-laws? The in-laws who chose Renly over him and only supported him in the confusion after Renly's death. They have not sworn to him. They have a mutually exclusive agenda. In fact they seem to be getting their own way as it was the Northerners who insisted on marching onto Winterfell when Stannis' men opposed it. The shadow baby is the biggest deus ex machina of them all. Without that Stannis' war is quickly ended and Renly Baratheon sits the Throne. Ah, so Stannis is the best commander based on events that have not happened? The march on Winterfell was an awful decision from a commander. He did not have the supplies or the equipment for that kind of march and is losing men and heavy horse on a trip that does little for his quest to win the Throne or even protect the Wall. That was four different victories. Four battles and one war won. If you are not counting individual battles then Tywin has been the winning lead commander in two wars. That is two more than Stannis. eh? Hiring mercenaries is not illegal. Dunk pretty much makes his living from this in the Dunk & Egg books while Stannis initial army at Dragonstone is built up of mercenaries from Essos. Of course hiring mercenaries is not illegal, however ignoring that Tywin's army was built up of Lannister, Marbrand and Prester vassals. Not mercenaries. Nor did he terrorise the Reynes and Tarbecks. He told them to come to court and not only did they refuse but they withdrew their fealty (and encouraged other to do the same) to House Lannister, an act of war in itself. Nope, he was knighted before the war. His actions in the war were thought of as quite admirable and he was chosen to knight the heir to the Throne, Aerys, during the war. You mean the war he won? Whoa! I love how you simply choose to ignore the conquest of the Riverlands. All but the Mallister and Frey lands were dealt with and this was in a matter of weeks (possibly less). The Lannisters take down of the Riverlands is a pretty impressive command manoeuvre. But lets get back to Robb, how exactly was he outfought by Robb at every turn? It was a stalemate. Now I agree, Robb could have pressed his advantage as Tywin was fighting a war on multiple fronts but Robb never did, so to say he was outfought is kind of ignoring what was actually happening. Tywin was still sitting pretty in the Riverlands, the major settlements in the West still very secure and all Robb was doing was attacking shepherds and mines. If an enemy chooses to waste his own time doing inconsequential actions, then a decent commander allows him to. Roose did not throw the battle. According to the author it was in Roose's best interests to win that battle. Do you not realise that commanders delegate? That is part of command, in fact it is probably one of the key parts of the command. Tywin was the lead commander at the Battle of Blackwater, he trounced Stannis. The entire realm acknowledges this basic fact, from at the Wall "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater." to down south in the Citadel "Tywin Lannister had smashed Stannis and R'hllor upon the Blackwater, and soon enough he would finish them and mount the head of the Baratheon pretender on a spike above the gates of King's Landing." I'm sorry that you don't like this fact, but it is true lol what? Kings Landing was being starved by the Rose road, not the River road. I think you are misreading what was actually happening. Tywin goes West because Stannis was laying Storm's End under seige. an action that should have taken half a year at least. That is why Tywin goes West, he has time to deal with Robb. "Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. "How did this happen?" Once again a magical shadow baby (like the magical direwolf) comes to the aide of Tywin's enemies. eh? How do you get that? You earlier claimed that it was the Tyrells who won on the Blackwater and it was Littlefinger who was repsonsible for bringing them in. Kings Landing would have been fine with or without Tywin. And of course there is nothing stopping Tywin receiving a messenger on the way to the West or even a raven at the Golden Tooth and simply turning around. eh? This is based on what? lol this has what to do with command? Please read the title of the thread. It quite clearly is true. There are three wars were he has done so The take down of the Riverlands His beating the rebel army to Kings Landing despite being further away The speed he dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks, not giving them enough time to join forces Three separate wars were Tywin's speed and logistics have been impressive. Sorry, can I ask what exactly this is based on? We are never told how long it takes Ned to do this. We do know that in the time that it took Ned to mobilise his force Arryn was able to call his banners and win the Battle of Gulltown, Robert was then able to sail home, call his banners march to Summerhall and win those three fights, return to Storm's End where he spent an unknown amount of time hunting and hawking with his prisoners, before marching to the Reach and fighting the battle of Ashemark and then making his way to the Riverlands for the Battle of the Bells. We have no idea how quickly it took Ned. It may well have been a quarter of a year or even longer. I'm sorry, but you have lost me here. What exactly is illegal about Tywin's actions? And which Lords is terrorising into submission? Are you talking about the 500 Westerland knights who returned from the Nine Penny Wars? All those lords who had engaged in private wars during the previous decade were summoned to court, to have their disputes adjudicated by their liege lord. Five hundred knights, blooded and seasoned veterans of the Stepstones, were formed into a new company under the command of Ser Tywin’s brother Ser Kevan, and charged with ridding the west of robber knights and outlaws, and “assisting in the collection of unpaid debts due to his lordship, my sire.” Nothing about that is illegal, nor is it enough to beat the Reynes and Tarbecks. And in fact the Reynes and Tarbecks started to prepare from that point onwards But elsewhere, the collectors were met with sullen resistance and open defiance. Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin’s edicts, and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing. “The cub will soon grow weary of chasing his own tail,” he said. . . yet he set about strengthening the defenses of Castamere as well. And of course they chose to renounce their fealty to their Lord. They, wrongly, thought they could beat the Lannisters. That is on them, nobody else. What do you mean he does not do much? He saved Robert at the Battle of the Bells, he saved Stannis at Storm's End and was a commander in the Battle of the Trident, even being trusted to go take Kings Landing. Only Robert, and perhaps Arryn, played bigger roles in that war. lol mopping up. There are multiple islands. Ask the American who thought in the Pacific islands just how easy that is. Wait, so them outnumbering the Greyjoys on their own islands were they are in their own fortresses should be ignored because they (likely) outnumbered them but the Stannis vastly outnumbering the Greyjoys on sea should not? I think you bias is a little telling here. Ned and Tywin, unlike Stannis, don't feel the need to brag about their exploits. Tywin's grandson is the King of Westeros. How exactly is Tywin's legacy not alive? The Westerlands is still firmly under Lannister rule What exactly is your point here? Tywin's bannermen have no need to restore his seat as they never lost it. This is some bizarre strawman argument you have going on here, that Ned's legacy is better because his heirs are having to fight to reclaim it. You mean that Tywin faced two enemies at once and still won. And somehow you are claiming he was outthought and outfought. Command is all about winning wars, something neither Stannis or Robb have ever done. Of the three of them Tywin is the only one who has won wars. The other two has had some decent battle wins. Tywin, Stannis and Robb. Which of the three did not have magic on their side?
  13. Not according to the books. Cersie only decides to cuckold the King a year or so into their marriage after finding out that he was less than subtly banging one of his Estermont cousins. It is at that point, not before, that she decides that she will not give birth to one of his heirs. Cersei and Jaime wanted to be together, but there is no evidence that they sleeping together from the start of the marriage to that night at Estermont island. How is that a given? It was Joanna who suspected it was possible from the not yet even teenagers, not Tywin.
  14. 3,000 horse at Winterfell. Now if the Starks had around 5k overall then the Dustins and Ryswells (as well a Locke&Flints) will have supplied 1.7k horse with the remaining 6k that formed at Moat Cailin before the Manderlys arrived.
  15. Totally agree. So the idea that Renly somehow wronged Stannis by not supporting him is ludicrous. Both were trying to usurp the Crown, neither had more right than the other to do so. Dude, calm down., This is just a friendly discussion. Though it should be mentioned, demanding someone to back up their argument with text as evidence in a post you have provided none yourself is a little hypocritical.