A Song of Ice and Fire is 1000 Worlds SciFi story

[lewispringle]

Well, maybe….

I’m surprised nobody else has commented on this connection. It seems to be so overwhelming, but I guess there is no smoking gun.

Please allow me to briefly outline some circumstantial evidence:

Ø Martin spent a 20 year career before starting ASOIAF writing (mostly? at least much – science fiction)

Ø I believe he wrote dozens of short stories or novels in this 1000 worlds series

Ø In one of the stories (a song for lya?) – there is a ‘tree-like’ super-creature with telephatic powers, able to transcend space and time (sort of – this is sci-fi) – that merges with people in almost exactly the same way Bran and Brydon Rivers have.

Ø Sentinel Trees. They appear in his 1000 world stories, and Westeros, and nowhere else I’m aware of

Ø In at least a couple of his 1000 words sci-fi stories there are scenes of people looking up and commenting on constellations in the sky, and Martin uses this as an artifice to tie several other 1000 words stories together. For example, there is an ‘ice dragon’ and I think an ‘ice chariot’ constellation in a couple of his stories. I cannot recall any exact matches between ASOIAF and the 1000 world stories, but without computer text search (or more patience) this is tricky to match up. OK – this argument is weak, but I wanted to toss it out there ;-)

Ø Bakkalon the pale child (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bakkalon) – OK – others did notice that connection ;-)

Ø Many (most?) of Martin’s 1000 world stories involve similar sorts of primitive cultures on planets where the inhabitants sometimes deal with (worship) technological artifacts, but most of the world operates in medieval mode. Much of this is understood to be ‘post-apocalyptic’ – but not always obviously so.

Ø Warging – that’s Fantasy. But telepathy – that’s SCIFI? But what’s the difference between warging and telepathy? Warning is restricted to animals? But what happened between Bran and Hodor? It’s easy to see how this could be just sci-fi telepathy at work.

Ø I believe one other of his 1000 worlds stories had actual dragons (one I remember made of ice, and possibly one made of fire? Or at least that breathed fire).

Why does this matter? Well, it’s a story – it doesn’t ‘matter exactly ;-). But if you are trying to understand what happened to Valyria, who are the ‘others’, what’s up with the ‘gods’, what is magic, who is running the Citadel and why, who was Bran the builder? – this provides a framework for making it all make sense.

Of course – I may be wrong. This is just speculation. But it does provide a unifying theme to tie the entire story together. Perhaps in a decade we’ll have more evidence with which to evaluate the proposition? ;-)

[The Silver Otter]

Yep. Then again The George has been pretty forward saying they're basically the same thing.

"I think that for science fiction, fantasy, and even horror to some extent, the differences are skin-deep. I know there are elements in the field, particularly in science fiction, who feel that the differences are very profound, but I do not agree with that analysis. I think for me it is a matter of the furnishings. An elf or an alien may in some ways fulfill the same function, as a literary trope. It’s almost a matter of flavor. The ice cream can be chocolate or it can be strawberry, but it’s still ice cream. The real difference, to my mind, is between romantic fiction, which all these genres are a part of, and mimetic fiction, or naturalistic fiction." GRRM

http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2007/05/24/george-rr-martin-on-magic-vs-science/%C2'>

[Ser Creighton]

It actually has been brought up and whole theories based off some of his early work. A song for Lya and Dying of the light being mentioned as having a lot of impact setting his themes. Though what does the NY times know this is a forum of Ice and Fire, we have all the answers, you will see we have all of them, yes, yes.

[BONEMAN]

Check out the minds of wolves and Robins on YouTube. I'm not sure I want to believe it but I do.

[Lord Wraith]

Some people think Varys is Haviland Tuf.

[The Dragons Hand]

"Preston Jacobs." He said, it was not a question.

*Screams internally, externally and through the mouths of lions*

[SweetPea]

No, it's not the same universe, he just likes to reuse stuff. It becomes pretty apparent when you read his Dreamsongs books. 

[Vastet]

I have to disagree with George in his quote.

There are a LOT of similarities between Fantasy and Science Fiction, and many of the themes and plot devices. As he said, what difference really is there between an alien and a Elf? Or hyperspace/warp drive and magic spells?

But there is a significant difference in the foundational aspects of the story. The vast majority of Science Fiction makes an effort to be as truthful as possible to scientific knowledge available at the time of writing. The vast majority of Fantasy effectively ignores science altogether.

This is evidenced through the history of both genres.

80 years ago, stories about life on Venus were common. Until we sent a probe and realised how impossible it would be for life as we know it to survive there. The genre is like science itself: constantly changing as our understanding increases.

As for Fantasy, George himself has resisted all attempts to scientifically explain the seasonal discrepancy with what we're used to. He says it's magic and leaves it at that. It is common for Fantasy to gloss over details on scientific topics because the characters are almost always (if not always) living in a time of scientific ignorance.

Fantasy has never really significantly changed. Because magic is the core, and magic cannot change the way science can. It doesn't actually exist, so our understanding of it cannot be altered. It always has been and always will be magic.

[spitsphyre]

This doesn't necessarily mean it's still set in the 1000 Worlds universe (though I think it would be pretty amazing if it were) but at one point, when the very first inspiration for the story first struck, GRRM said that it was meant to take place on Avalon. Which is one of the planets in this universe of his.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have to disagree with George in his quote.

There are a LOT of similarities between Fantasy and Science Fiction, and many of the themes and plot devices. As he said, what difference really is there between an alien and a Elf? Or hyperspace/warp drive and magic spells

 

Yep. Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker have very similar stories with pretty much the same elements in many things.

[SweetPea]

Is there magic in the Thousand Worlds universe though? I know there's telekinesis and telepathy but that's all I can think of now. Straight up resurrection like Lady Stoneheart would feel pretty out of place in that universe, wouldn't it?

[LordStoneheart]

If I'm not mistaken, Old Earth is sometimes referenced in the 1000 worlds stories. That is our earth, whereas Planetos:

This may be a silly question, but: When you think of the world you’ve created, where seasons last for years, where is it? It is another planet?
It’s what Tolkien wrote was “the secondary world.” It’s not another planet. It’s Earth. But it’s not our Earth. If you wanted to do a science fiction approach, you could call it an alternate world, but that sounds too science fictional. Tolkien really pioneered that with Middle Earth. He put in some vague things about tying it to our past, but that doesn’t really hold up.

Actually, even if Old Earth isn't our earth, this clarifies that he does not want Planetos to be seen as "science fictional."

[BONEMAN]

...quote name="SweetPea" post="7277573" timestamp="1439794134"]Is there magic in the Thousand Worlds universe though? I know there's telekinesis and telepathy but that's all I can think of now. Straight up resurrection like Lady Stoneheart would feel pretty out of place in that universe, wouldn't it?[/quote]

Those things could still be remnants of some sufficiently advanced tech that is indistinguishable from magic.
Why does he mention Bakkalon? Would he just because he wants to reuse a god he enjoyed? Is that like him? He tends to be anti willy nilly right? Too many questions I'm sorry.

Now I don't think he'd ever come out and say it is sci fi, he just may put enough links to where we can believe whatever we want. He spent a long time writing that continuity, even if he didn't mean to at first it seems like once you start writing it'd be hard to resist.

[SweetPea]

[quote name="BONEMAN" post="7279569" timestamp="1439866427"]...quote name="SweetPea" post="7277573" timestamp="1439794134"]Is there magic in the Thousand Worlds universe though? I know there's telekinesis and telepathy but that's all I can think of now. Straight up resurrection like Lady Stoneheart would feel pretty out of place in that universe, wouldn't it?[/quote]
Why does he mention Bakkalon? Would he just because he wants to reuse a god he enjoyed? Is that like him? He tends to be anti willy nilly right? Too many questions I'm sorry. [/quote]Sure he wants to reuse Bakkalon. "Never throw anything away". That is what he said about reusing stuff. Also, he has other stories set in different universes, and even those stories have things like this in common. I wouldn't read too much into it.

[DMC]

 

Yep. Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker have very similar stories with pretty much the same elements in many things.

 

Like, they're both the least interesting personalities in their own series?