Now why say that, Lord Tywin?

[Ser Daegon]

This isn't necessarily a crackpot on the new(old?) theory about how Tyrion might not be Tywin Lannister's son but instead be the son of Mad Aerys, but this is more of a musing of sorts. A means of discussing something that may or not mean something significant.

On my very first re-read of the series(back before AFFC came out) I remember reading a conversation between Tyrion and his father. When Tyrion asks his father for his birthright, Tywin's reply is a shockingly cold and hateful display.

"You ask that? You who killed your mother to come into the world?

You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full

of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear

my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are

not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to

watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's

sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever

compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse." (aSoS, pg65)

On my first read I was just disturbed how a father could feel this way about his son, to be able to talk to him like that and not feel a thing. My automatic response was that Tywin must blame and hate Tyrion for the death of Joanna, and all of Tyrion's subsequent behavior. But on my reread, something from the middle of it jumped out to me. "Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine." This just struck me as a very odd thing for Tywin to say if his reason for hating Tyrion is simply because he's a dwarf who killed his mother at birth.

I would love to see Martin's reaction if asked "Now why say that, Lord Tywin?"

I'd like to know anyone's thoughts on this. Again, this is not about the Tyrion Targ theory, just an analysis of the line itself, and why Tywin would say something like that to Tyrion.

[nekrohsis]

If Tyrion was not his son, Tywin wouldn't be responsible for conceiving him. He'd rather believe some other man impregnated Joanna, because then he wouldn't face the shame of conceiving a dwarf and the guilt of contributing to his wife's death.

[Ser Daegon]

But wouldn't it shame him even worse to be cuckolded by his wife?

[Ramsay's Bitch]

I agree that was a bizarre comment for him to make, but I still believe that Tyrion is his only legitimate offspring because reasons. :)

[Ser Hippie]

It's just his way of saying "I wish you weren't my child, but since I can't I'm stuck with you wearing (and profaning) my colors and name."

[Winnief]

I think GRRM has said publicly that Tyrion was Tywin's son-Tywin just didn't like admitting it, even though Tyrion was the child who resembled him most in terms of character.

[Deep Like Davos]

Still interesting because they constantly mention how much he loved Lady Joanna. So for him to openly hope she cheated or was raped is strange.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's something that even for tywin must be quite difficult to think about. He surely wishes Tyrion wasn't his son so he wouldn't have to call him a Lannister but at the same time, by wishing this, he's accepting his beloved wife was either raped or cheated on him, which is probably something that hurts him.

[Lion of the West]

Also adds that Tywin says to Jaime "You are not my son." It don't have to mean that Tywin thinks Jaime is someone's else's kid but that he is pretty pissed at him at that moment. So I would say that the comment "I cannot prove you are not mine" should be understood in context with Tywin's comment to Jaime.

[MyLittleFinger]

Probably because if he wasn't his son he would have been tossed down a well a long time ago...and hint hint Tyrion you're lucky to be my son and wear my colours and carry my name etc.

[Mikkel]

It's conflicting because both scenarios suck (in the twisted mind of Tywin, that is):

Either his beloved wife was unfaithful/was raped, or he's the father of a grotesque dwarf who embarrasses House Lannister on a regular basis.

None of these scenarios is a win for Tywin, but he's stuck with the version he perhaps prefers least: that Tyrion is his son, so technically in line for Casterly Rock and all that. Because as much as he might want to, he can't prove otherwise. Thus denouncing Tyrion is an avenue that's not open to him, and trying it would accomplish nothing, while dishonoring Joanna, Tywin and by extension the whole of House Lannister.

[Castellan]

This isn't necessarily a crackpot on the new(old?) theory about how Tyrion might not be Tywin Lannister's son but instead be the son of Mad Aerys, but this is more of a musing of sorts. A means of discussing something that may or not mean something significant.

On my very first re-read of the series(back before AFFC came out) I remember reading a conversation between Tyrion and his father. When Tyrion asks his father for his birthright, Tywin's reply is a shockingly cold and hateful display.

"You ask that? You who killed your mother to come into the world?

You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full

of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear

my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are

not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to

watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's

sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever

compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse." (aSoS, pg65)

On my first read I was just disturbed how a father could feel this way about his son, to be able to talk to him like that and not feel a thing. My automatic response was that Tywin must blame and hate Tyrion for the death of Joanna, and all of Tyrion's subsequent behavior. But on my reread, something from the middle of it jumped out to me. "Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine." This just struck me as a very odd thing for Tywin to say if his reason for hating Tyrion is simply because he's a dwarf who killed his mother at birth.

I would love to see Martin's reaction if asked "Now why say that, Lord Tywin?"

I'd like to know anyone's thoughts on this. Again, this is not about the Tyrion Targ theory, just an analysis of the line itself, and why Tywin would say something like that to Tyrion.

If he seriously thought Tyrion was not his son, Tyrion would be dead. I think he just means he has absolutely no paternal feeling for him and is only going to give him the bare minimum recognition that he has a right too. Sad to say, even minus the mother's death, and Tywin's pre-existing complex about not giving anyone a reason to mock his family, I suspect many people throughout history have reacted with precisely this degree of hatred and horror to the birth of a dwarf or other disabled child.

[DJIM]

Tyrion being a dwarf is a strong indication that he is, indeed, Tywin's son. Remember, Joanna was cousin to Tywin and children of close relatives tend to have genetic defects.

[Old Crow]

Tyrion being a dwarf is a strong indication that he is, indeed, Tywin's son. Remember, Joanna was cousin to Tywin and children of close relatives tend to have genetic defects.

We do not know how close of cousins they were, but this statement is correct.

I don't think Tyrion is illegitimate, because as another poster has stated-he would have been killed if he wasn't Tywin's. Somehow I don't see Tywin suffering a child that is not his.

[Kienn]

We do not know how close of cousins they were

Her father was Tytos' younger brother, so first cousins.

[John Suburbs]

I used to think Tywin knew full well that Tyrion was not his son but had to play along with the lie or else besmirch Joanna's honor.

But it seems incongruous that he would remain as HotK after something like that only to resign years later because the MK broke an implied marriage contract between R and C.

But I think it's clear that Tyrion has Targ blood. How else to explain that both T and JC fell into the Royne at the colony of greyscale lepers but only JC has come down with it?

[Bloodsteel]

I think GRRM has said publicly that Tyrion was Tywin's son-Tywin just didn't like admitting it, even though Tyrion was the child who resembled him most in terms of character.

Anyone have a link for this? I'd be very interested in reading it.

[messem]

"Now why say that, Lord Tywin?"

"All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes."

[furiousmoose0]

Tyrion being a dwarf is a strong indication that he is, indeed, Tywin's son. Remember, Joanna was cousin to Tywin and children of close relatives tend to have genetic defects.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe dwarfism is one of those defects that comes from inbreeding. From his POV, he most likely is a inproportionate dwarf, which is most likely caused by anchondroplasia that is almost exclusively inherited from the fathers gene pool. I don't think there is really any reason Tyrion is not a Lannister. I am pretty sure Tywin would have looked into that. Lady Joanne was dead and if he found out that Tyrion had the possibility of not being his seed, he would have claimed rape and demanded the head of the accused.

To the OP, I think in Tywins opinion, Tyrion has disgraced him to a point that Tywin himself never knew he could endure. From performing tumbling, to marrying a commoner, to frequenting brothels, to being a sight so horrific Tywin was unable to find a suitable marriage. Tywin's mindset has always been to pave the way for the Lannisters to be the future. As I afore mentioned, he was unable to find a marriage for Tyrion, had he been, the conversation might have gone differently. But as it stood then, he would have been giving the future if his name to someone who couldnt keep the blood highborn(and henceforth name and reputation). We already know what his plan for CR was (Jaime), but even if that failed he would have given it to Kevin.

[Heir to Winterfell]

Tywin also says Tyrion is "filled with low cunning." Clearly he is trying to hurt Tyrion and not being exactly forhtright. Tyrion is many things but he is one of the most clever players in the story.