R+L=J v.76

[DragonDreamer]

snip

You should put your reply in spoiler, not everyone wants to know the content of the first episode of GoT.

I don't really see that, people have question the quote as a negative thing for Dany and of course we shouldn't use the show as cannon but this seems to imply that the vision is indeed a source of good for Dany. It is part of the Bride of Fire series, which could indicate a marriage between the two. Whatever it may end up being, it's nice to see the show incorporating some of the more subtle lore from the book, perhaps we'll see Jon later associated with the blue rose in the show and show viewers only can begin to make the association of R+L=J

[Lyse Stark]

You should put your reply in spoiler, not everyone wants to know the content of the first episode of GoT.

I don't really see that, people have question the quote as a negative thing for Dany and of course we shouldn't use the show as cannon but this seems to imply that the vision is indeed a source of good for Dany. It is part of the Bride of Fire series, which could indicate a marriage between the two. Whatever it may end up being, it's nice to see the show incorporating some of the more subtle lore from the book, perhaps we'll see Jon later associated with the blue rose in the show and show viewers only can begin to make the association of R+L=J

Actually I see the sweetness as a negative in that when she dies, she is at peace because Jon healed her emotional and mental wounds resulting from Visery's abuse.

And I actually think the scalding hot bath that Dany takes is a form of self-injury to cope with childhood abuse.

ETA:

Abuse during childhood is accepted as a primary social factor increasing the incidence of self-harm,[40] as is bereavement,[41] and troubled parental or partner relationships.[10][15] Factors such as war, poverty, and unemployment may also contribute.[14][42][43] Self-harm is frequently described as an experience of depersonalisation or a dissociative state.[44] As many as 70% of individuals with borderline personality disorder engage in self-harm.

This is from Wikipedia.

[DragonDreamer]

Actually I see the sweetness as a negative in that when she dies, she is at peace because Jon healed her emotional and mental wounds resulting from Visery's abuse.

And I actually think the scalding hot bath that Dany takes is a form of self-injury to cope with childhood abuse.

ETA:

This is from Wikipedia.

I'm just going to answer this and let it be because I don't want to turn this into a Dany discussion. Your claim has no textual basis whatsoever, and you should provide some if you are going to make such a claim. GRRM has spoken repeatedly about Targaryen's and heat, and while they are not immune to fire or any such thing, they do enjoy hot bath. There is some symbolism behind it but as it's a bath the symbolism behind it is about cleanliness. Ragnorak wrote about how Dany's bathing is used to represent her burdens using text: You should read it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-part-i-agot/?p=5530250

[Lyse Stark]

I'm just going to answer this and let it be because I don't want to turn this into a Dany discussion. Your claim has no textual basis whatsoever, and you should provide some if you are going to make such a claim. GRRM has spoken repeatedly about Targaryen's and heat, and while they are not immune to fire or any such thing, they do enjoy hot bath. There is some symbolism behind it but as it's a bath the symbolism behind it is about cleanliness. Ragnorak wrote about how Dany's bathing is used to represent her burdens using text: You should read it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-part-i-agot/?p=5530250

I just pointed out another connection with childhood abuse, and I think you need to be mindful of this potential theory. You may think the bathing connect with Dany's burdens as leader, but I see it as having a much darker link to Viserys' abusive behaviour.

Now back to the topic; the point is that Jon, as the blue rose, will heal Dany so she can be at peace when she dies.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Ned said that they were a shining example for the rest of the world, and the greatest among them was Dayne.

Small in stature with mismatched armor. Someone that doesn't have their own armor. Benjen likely had his own armor, as did Ned and Brandon. Meera and Jojen agree when one says something true. One said it might be the Crannogman, the other denied it. Likely not the Crannogman, if not for their statements, then for the fact that he is not skilled at riding a horse.

Why is it important for Ned to remember "We are Kingsguard" and "We swore a vow" without documenting the vow? The answer is quite simple, it is the Kingsguard's vow. If it had been any other vow, Ned would need to remember what they pledged in his dream. No, they are not staying because the king ordered them to follow Rhaegar's orders. That would be true of Dayne and Whent, but not Hightower. Hightower is very important, and his insistence on strict observance of protocol is pretty historical in the books. The primary purpose of the Kingsguard is mentioned in several places, and that is to protect and defend the king. There are many notes of the white cloaked ghost standing near the king, ready to protect him. There is only one answer, these three are guarding a king at the tower, and they are quite aware that they are caught in enemy territory with no way to move him without revealing him.

Aside, Ygrain is accurate, there are disbelievers that will do nothing but deny, and there is a short list of arguments that they repeatedly use. We should just go cut and paste earlier circular arguments and their answers.

The Mystery is lost if your armor is recognised, obviously. I think Howland also, but he doesnt seem to be a great horse rider. Who knows. But the knight did speak with a booming voice. Though like I said this does not pertain to what I originally posted. I was looking at this from a Lyanna and Ned view. I said why would they keep Ned from a dying Lyanna, and you say cause they have Kingsgaurd vow.? I said it looks like Lya wouldn't choose to be there on her own will, and you say she was the KotLT.?

Its funny, your replies did not really fit my first post, you used answers i see from the stubby on page one and the same old Lyanna was the KotLT, against my pondering. I have never heard of a short list of arguments about Lyanna. Though I haven't read all 70+ threads.

Your last paragraph is the pot calling the kettle black. Yet I did not know I was a kettle.

Whats the point of having a thread debate if its all from one angle?

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

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QUOTE - This is a Natasi post from R + L = J v. 75

Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:57 AM

"This discussion on the legality of polygamy or other methods of legitimacy seems very one-dimensional. Has anyone considered that these "accepted" laws and customs could very well be turned on their heads?

I see the argument made again and again that things "aren't done that way" and that the people would never allow it. There isn't a supreme court, though. There's no legislative body to deem something acceptable or not. I believe that, if the circumstances are ripe for it, all of the laws and accepted customs can be overruled. A circumstance like a bastard helping to defeat the Others and save the Realm. It seems likely to me that such a scenario would change people's minds on who can be their leader. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't exclude it from happening.

I think that our arguments here are being made in an unnecessarily rigid framework and we should consider the possibility of that framework being torn down and rebuilt"

*end quote

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I think one point that GRRM has been trying to drive home is the insignificance of perceived power. We don’t know how important the various prophecies are going to be for the stories ending, but we know the Azor Ahai and TPTWP prophecies predate the Targaryen dynasty by thousands of years. This suggests that the ruler of the 7 Kingdoms may not be important (or possible) at all in the end. Hypothetically, if Jon were to lead the forces of man against the Others and win, I think the line of succession would be one of the last things on everybody’s mind.

I’m of the opinion that the 7 Kingdoms will cease to exist in their current form at the conclusion of the story. Realistically, who could sit on the IT that would be a truly unifying figure? All of the 7 Kingdoms have unique geographic elements that make ruling via conquest difficult (unless you have dragons). The North has already declared independence, the Vale has not helped either side (essentially treating itself as an independent land), Dorne is a very different place than the rest of the land-- even when Robert was king he never dared venture there after the Sack of King’s Landing.. basically I don’t view any of the current candidates for throne as an inspiring or unifying figure.

This is a strange time for Westeros, Jon has as much a chance of emerging through the chaos as King as anybody else in my opinion, and I’m not sure his being Rhaegar’s son would be the most important catalyst to his ascension to the throne.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

We really have no idea to be honest. One crackpot attempt to tie it all up in a nice bundle that we hatched in this series of threads was the theory that Rhaegar and Rickard were allies.

Wow, never heard of that one. I will have to check it out.

[Chebyshov]

The Mystery is lost if your armor is recognised, obviously. I think Howland also, but he doesnt seem to be a great horse rider. Who knows. But the knight did speak with a booming voice. Though like I said this does not pertain to what I originally posted. I was looking at this from a Lyanna and Ned view. I said why would they keep Ned from a dying Lyanna, and you say cause they have Kingsgaurd vow.? I said it looks like Lya wouldn't choose to be there on her own will, and you say she was the KotLT.?

I've always found the KG keeping Ned from Lyanna to be a bit troubling, but my best guess is that they might have thought he'd harm the baby (and Targ heir to IT).

[corbon]

Okay, another n00b question.

How does the coup that Rhaegar apparently had in the works at the time of his death figure into all of this? Especially as it regard the presence of Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.

I don't think its entirely clear that there was any 'coup' planned.

"Changes", yes, which no doubt would have removed the power from Aerys, but probably not the status, and probably in a perfectly legal way - Rhaegar would not wish to do something which damages the institution of Kingship.

Having said that, there is no need for ToJ to play into Rhaegar's plans in that direction at all. Hightower would be better kept away from KL initially purely because of the Lyanna situation. Aerys would be a risk to Lyanna, for multiple reasons, and Hghtower would be a risk to betray the location of Lyanna.

I thing if Rhaegar was planning something risky coup-wise in KL I think he would have kept at least Dayne or Whent with him. He'd need support in KL from at least one person he could trust. Hightower and Whent/Dayne would be almost as sufficient protecting Lyanna than the three of them, especially as the main defence at ToJ is secrecy.

I think instead he intended to beat the rebellion, pardon the rebels and then call a great council to establish him as Regent for Aerys. No coup, nothing extra-legal, just "changes."

I'm not sure we'll ever know though.

[Fred of Ashai]

Ned just having killed Ashara's beloved brother is a perfectly reasonable excuse for her to have thrown herself from a tower into the sea.

I am questioning, with sarcasm, your use of the word "best" to create an overly elaborate, and very difficult to pull off, scenario for which there are more simple explanations.

Also, it is just wrong to say that R=L=J does not explain Ashara's disappearance, it does, she threw herself from a tower into the sea. You are free to not subscribe to that theory, but you cannot say that it does not answer it.

It may just not answer it to your satisfaction or adhere to your course of logic of how the events played out; which is different than "not explaining Ashara's disappearance."

Okay, you are right, the RLJ theory does have an explanation for Ashara's disappearance--she killed herself because her brother died.

The problem is that explanation is so weak it can't be taken seriously. Lyanna didn't kill herself when Brandon died. Sansa didn't kill herself when Robb died, even though this put her in a much worse position than Ashara occupied. Edmure didn't kill himself when Catelyn died, Genna didn't kill herself when Thwin died, Dany didn't kill herself when Viserys died, and so on.

And, Ashara's body was never found. This screams out that she is still alive.

The idea that she took Lyanna's baby and Ned took his own is very likely and it mirrors very well what Jon later did when he sent Mance's baby away and kept Gilly's baby in the North. Nothing complicated there.

[Fred of Ashai]

I've always found the KG keeping Ned from Lyanna to be a bit troubling, but my best guess is that they might have thought he'd harm the baby (and Targ heir to IT).

They were 't keeping Ned from the baby. They were keeping him from Lyanna.

Taking Lyanna hostage was the best way to protect Viserys and Rhaella from harm or threat. If they could get Lyanna to Dragonstone and threaten to kill her if Robert invaded, Viserys and Rhaella would be safe as long as Lyanna stayed alive.

[Julia Martell]

Next n00b question: What's this about Rhaegar expecting Jon to be a girl? Aegon the Conqueror redo?

[Alia of the knife]

Next n00b question: What's this about Rhaegar expecting Jon to be a girl? Aegon the Conqueror redo?

Basically yes, there is a theory that he was trying to recreate the original triad with a second daughter as Visenya, but the only problem is, someone who is supposedly following the prophesy to the letter, he would have gotten the sisters backwards.

Rhaenys was actually the younger one, while Visenya was the older one, so I don't really go with that.

[Alia of the knife]

^{Just thinking about the different parallels to Jon from Dany to Arya, and I was also thinking about his dreams of the crypts, and thought of Arya when she got lost in the bowls of Kings Landing, stumbling upon the bones of the dragons.}

"She can tell it is bone and that it is dead, but has a feeling that it knows she is there and that it does not love her. "

(At least for now).

But it was interesting to me that Jon was in a place he wasn't supposed to be, and now Arya finds herself in the home that might have been Jons, and feels the same way.

[Fred of Ashai]

Next n00b question: What's this about Rhaegar expecting Jon to be a girl? Aegon the Conqueror redo?

Yes, this is the bizarre theory that Rhaegar left three King's guards, one of whom was The Lord Commander, to guard an embryo he thought could never inherit the throne. It is incomprehensible.

[Fred of Ashai]

Ah, my favourite part about how they keep proclaiming proudly that they are Kingsguard but are staying at ToJ because of a vow that actually prevents them from fulfilling their Kingsguard duties :-) Really, no R+L thread can be complete without this argument :D

When Ser Willas Fell of the King's guard obeyed Larys' order, left the king with no King's guards, and swore a vow to take a simple, non-heir child to Storm's End whilst the king went somewhere Willas did not know; did poor Ser Willas break his King's guard vow?

[Lyse Stark]

^{Just thinking about the different parallels to Jon from Dany to Arya, and I was also thinking about his dreams of the crypts, and thought of Arya when she got lost in the bowls of Kings Landing, stumbling upon the bones of the dragons.}

"She can tell it is bone and that it is dead, but has a feeling that it knows she is there and that it does not love her. "

(At least for now).

But it was interesting to me that Jon was in a place he wasn't supposed to be, and now Arya finds herself in the home that might have been Jons, and feels the same way.

I agree. The Old Kings of Winter knows that Jon isn't one of them, yet he shares their blood. And the dragon bones of the Red Keep may possibly call out to Jon, the Ice Dragon.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

The Old Kings of Winter knows that Jon isn't one of them,

In at least one of the Winterfell dreams the Dead Kings of Winter scream "you don't belong here"

and in at least one other Jon does the screaming "I don't belong here".

There is another much simpler explanation that's also quite useful, saying: "You are not dead, Jon", which is useful at the time and may be extrapolated to "You don't belong with the dead" which may work nicely should Jon be actually dying by the end of ADwD.

edit: Dead Kings, not Deaf Kings...

[Ghost's Shadow]

Those horrible Catelyn Stans...

(To clarify: I mean the Old Kings)

[MtnLion]

Joffrey's wedding had nothing to do with the Tower of Joy. Ashara's disappearance did. Ned's journey from the Tower of Joy to Starfall was the direct trigger for Ashara's disappearance.

I don't see anything to indicate a trigger for Ashara's Leap. Do you have something that I missed?