Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[Mithras]

By the way, it is certain that Viserion hatched first. The other two are not known. Given that Viserion and Rhaegal was sucking Dany's teats, did Drogon hatch last so no titty for the latecomer?

The third crack was the loudest and it is like the breaking of the world. I think there is a good chance that Dany/Drogon will be the stallion that will mount the earth, so this maybe another hint for Drogon being last to hatch.

[Parwan]

Previous to the pyre scene, did anyone ever place dragon eggs on a fire? It seems natural that someone would have done this, but I know of no textual evidence that anyone did so. In the time since the death of the last Targaryen beast, something bad (and vague) happened at Summerhall, someone drank wildfire, someone tried to burn down King's Landing (perhaps thinking that he would rise as a dragon from the conflagration), someone prayed over old eggs...Moving beyond the Targaryens, we have Euron's strange claim about owning a dragon egg, killing a wizard, and throwing the egg into the sea. Some of these actions don't even involve eggs. The ones that do either don't involve fire or don't specifically bring the objects in question into contact with fire.

Even considering Targaryen and Valyrian history, I know of no clear statement in the text that eggs were hatched by placing them on a fire. Do any of you know of such a statement?

Later Note: I could have phrased the matter better--Has anyone but Dany put dragon eggs on a fire? She did try this earlier, but only with one egg and on a fire that wasn't hot enough. It seems a minor thing, but perhaps it isn't. Sometimes "inspiration" is a matter of seeing the "obvious" when others fail to do so. Maybe magic is like that at times. This might be another indication that Dany is magical.

[MoIaF]

By the way, it is certain that Viserion hatched first. The other two are not known. Given that Viserion and Rhaegal was sucking Dany's teats, did Drogon hatch last so no titty for the latecomer?

The third crack was the loudest and it is like the breaking of the world. I think there is a good chance that Dany/Drogon will be the stallion that will mount the earth, so this maybe another hint for Drogon being last to hatch.

Yes, we do know for sure that Viserion was the first dragon to hatch:

"Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking."

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Previous to the pyre scene, did anyone ever place dragon eggs on a fire? It seems natural that someone would have done this, but I know of no textual evidence that anyone did so. In the time since the death of the last Targaryen beast, something bad (and vague) happened at Summerhall, someone drank wildfire, someone tried to burn down King's Landing (perhaps thinking that he would rise as a dragon from the conflagration), someone prayed over old eggs...Moving beyond the Targaryens, we have Euron's strange claim about owning a dragon egg, killing a wizard, and throwing the egg into the sea. Some of these actions don't even involve eggs. The ones that do either don't involve fire or don't specifically bring the objects in question into contact with fire.

Even considering Targaryen and Valyrian history, I know of no clear statement in the text that eggs were hatched by placing them on a fire. Do any of you know of such a statement?

Later Note: I could have phrased the matter better--Has anyone but Dany put dragon eggs on a fire? She did try this earlier, but only with one egg and on a fire that wasn't hot enough. It seems a minor thing, but perhaps it isn't. Sometimes "inspiration" is a matter of seeing the "obvious" when others fail to do so. Maybe magic is like that at times. This might be another indication that Dany is magical.

Hmmm thats actually a good point to consider.

I don't think there is any evidence of any Targaryen's trying to burn the eggs, if anything they seemed to see it as precious so maybe they thought burning it would destroy it?

I think they did try fire at summerhall and I believe this was the first time. I forgot it was mentioned somewhere that Egg or one of his relatives that was doing research on dragons read that high temperature was needed to hatch an egg.

What's interesting here is that Dany had no knowledge of this but she seemed to know by instinct that immense heat was needed to hatch eggs and I believe this connects to your point on Dany having some "magical" inherent knowledge of how to hatch the eggs.

[SeanF]

Snipe

Thank you for this summary. It's a very good conclusion to the re-read of the first book.

When I read this chapter for the first time, I actually thought that Dany was committing suicide, by walking into the flames, and that's how her story would end. I hadn't realised just how much thought went into planning this particular ritual, and the end surprised me. The book ends on a very high note, with Dany emerging unscathed from the fire, bringing dragons back into the world, and being adored by her followers. I was relieved she'd survived, and happy that the book ended so well for her.

Had AGOT been the only book in the series I read, then I'd have concluded that Martin intended the rebirth of dragons to be overwhelmingly a positive thing. However, it's one of the strengths of the series that as one reads further into it , one has to reappraise what has taken place in previous books.

Consider what took place. The ritual depended on burning a person alive. MMD was not innocent, but, as I've argued upthread, she was certainly more sinned against than sinning. Her village was burned; she was repeatedly raped; her friends and neighbours were tortured, raped, and murdered for sport. The survivors were then enslaved (the children to be sold into brothels). Dany did not order this horror; she tried to mitigate it, but she is not blameless. Even before the assassination attempt, she had been urging Drogo to invade Westeros. He was doing what she wanted. Had Drogo survived, dozens of towns and villages would have been sacked, both to fund the invasion, and during the course of it. Dany acknowledges to herself that such devastation is the price of the Iron Throne. MMD had every right to take what revenge she could against her oppressors. Yet, she is the one who ultimately dies a very cruel death at the hands of one of her oppressors.

In subsequent books, live burning is viewed as an evil act by the most sympathetic point of view characters. Asha Greyjoy is almost sick when she witnesses it; Jon Snow gets his archers to shoot down "Mance Rayder" before the flames reach him; Davos risks his life to save Edric Storm from the flames. In the light of this, it's hard to conclude that the burning of MMD was a good thing.

If we view this in the same light as Stannis burning starving soldiers, or Melisandre burning her victims, we then have to question whether bringing dragons and magic back into the world is a good thing after all. From reading the Princess and the Queen, we see that dragons can cause horrible destruction to innocent people.

As at the end of the ADWD, I'd say it's very much an open question as to whether this was a harsh act, but a necessary one, so that Dany could bring dragons back into the world, and save it from the Others; or whether it was the first step on the road to her becoming a cruel and tyrannical ruler.

[Ragnorak]

Very nice write up, Patrick. A very thoughtful and insightful look at much of the symbolism.

There's a marking of transition to adulthood with a great deal of ritual. MMD calls her a child, Jorah calls her princess and Dany balks at these labels. She even says "I was a child yesterday. Today I am a woman. Tomorrow I will be old." This is the normal course but it has been interrupted for Dany. Her childhood has been cut off early, her motherhood has been cut off before it began and men here wait to force her into the role of a crone before she has even begun to live her life.

MMD also brings up Dany's lack of wisdom and to a certain extent she is correct. Dany has learned some critical lessons from MMD but she is still young and inexperienced. I think a contrast of two bathing scenes helps demonstrate this.

Her bath was scalding hot when Irri helped her into the tub, but Dany did not flinch or cry aloud. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean.
Dany closed her eyes and let the smell and the warmth enfold her. She could feel the heat soaking through the soreness between her thighs. She shuddered when it entered her, and her pain and stiffness seemed to dissolve. She floated.
When she was clean, her handmaids helped her from the water.

Soon Dany was as clean as she was ever going to be. She pushed herself to her feet, splashing softly. Water ran down her legs and beaded on her breasts. The sun was climbing up the sky, and her people would soon be gathering. She would rather have drifted in the fragrant pool all day, eating iced fruit off silver trays and dreaming of a house with a red door, but a queen belongs to her people, not to herself.

By DwD the weight of her experiences and adult responsibilities changes the bathing experience. She can no longer feel completely clean which I think speaks to the weight of choices, experiences and the normal adult burdens of having seen the consequences of one's actions. The heat that is all purging here is not as welcome a force much later as she wishes for ice chips and a light and cool color yellow for her garb.

Her having to step into a male role is emphasized again here when she asks for her oaths before lighting the pyre. Her promise to protect these people is the archetype of the Father, her bride gifts are those of the Warrior, the task before her is the rebuilding of the Smith.

I always thought the Jorah sword promise was a curious bit with a lot of potential.

I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel.

4) I think she knew, but the fact that she knew was kind of instinctive. To make that clearer - I don't think she could have told someone (e.g. Jorah) what she was going to do or how it would work. She just knew it would, which is why it frustrates her that he doesn't understand. "Don't you see? Don't you SEE?" It all makes sense to her but not in a way that she can quite comprehend.

I think this inner knowledge and certainty probably is exactly what all the prior Targaryen Dragon Lotto losers felt as well. Prophecy is a dangerous thing in ASOIAF but there is more to it in Dany's story than the Greek doom a Cersei is self-fulfilling. Prophecy has brought a good deal of tragedy down on House Targaryen but it also saved them from the Doom of Vayria in the first place. I see a lot of danger signs in her obsession with prophecy as the story progresses but this pyre here is filled with parallels to the threes she is told of in the House of the Undying and certainly fits with a successful application of prophecy even if Dany was ignorant of it. There's something more to it but I'm not sure how to piece it together yet. Perhaps Jojen and Cersei represent two ends of a spectrum and Dany is somewhere in the middle?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Previous to the pyre scene, did anyone ever place dragon eggs on a fire? It seems natural that someone would have done this, but I know of no textual evidence that anyone did so. In the time since the death of the last Targaryen beast, something bad (and vague) happened at Summerhall, someone drank wildfire, someone tried to burn down King's Landing (perhaps thinking that he would rise as a dragon from the conflagration), someone prayed over old eggs...Moving beyond the Targaryens, we have Euron's strange claim about owning a dragon egg, killing a wizard, and throwing the egg into the sea. Some of these actions don't even involve eggs. The ones that do either don't involve fire or don't specifically bring the objects in question into contact with fire.

Even considering Targaryen and Valyrian history, I know of no clear statement in the text that eggs were hatched by placing them on a fire. Do any of you know of such a statement?

Later Note: I could have phrased the matter better--Has anyone but Dany put dragon eggs on a fire? She did try this earlier, but only with one egg and on a fire that wasn't hot enough. It seems a minor thing, but perhaps it isn't. Sometimes "inspiration" is a matter of seeing the "obvious" when others fail to do so. Maybe magic is like that at times. This might be another indication that Dany is magical.

Yes that is a good point. Dany puts the eggs on a brazier a few chapters earlier and it doesn't work, that's why she thinks 'it wasn't hot enough'. But I completely agree that she did the entire pyre out of some 'inherent' knowledge that has been passed down to her in her Targaryen blood. I think that maybe at Summerhall someone did try to hatch eggs through fire, but it wouldnt be the same as what Dany did; her eggs were fossilized ancient stone 'eons old'. I think hatching live eggs is probably much easier and does not require a pyre or blood sacrifices.

But there is no doubt that Dany is fulfilling prophecies without any assistance or guidance. Previous members of her family have tried 'mad' things based on their ideas about what members of their family can do 'targ propaganda' or whatever you want to call it. Dany sort of does the same thing here; walking into that pyre is a completely nuts, crazy, 'Mad' idea........but it worked for her. She didn't die, not only does she not die, she birthed her dragons and at the same time created a legend for herself. So later on in the books when she feels like she doesnt have to explain herself or when she is sitting on her high horse a little, she is completely justified. She is not pretentious. She has done something no one else in the books can compare to. And she did it all on her own. I think this is something very notable and has been basically chalked up to nothing special on this forum... I completely disagree, i don't think MMD's magic had anything at all to do with the Pyre, her only purpose was to die and she did, her singing or chanting was completely superfluous to the hatching of the dragons or Dany remaining 'unburnt'.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thank you for this summary. It's a very good conclusion to the re-read of the first book.

When I read this chapter for the first time, I actually thought that Dany was committing suicide, by walking into the flames, and that's how her story would end. I hadn't realised just how much thought went into planning this particular ritual, and the end surprised me. The book ends on a very high note, with Dany emerging unscathed from the fire, bringing dragons back into the world, and being adored by her followers. I was relieved she'd survived, and happy that the book ended so well for her.

Had AGOT been the only book in the series I read, then I'd have concluded that Martin intended the rebirth of dragons to be overwhelmingly a positive thing. However, it's one of the strengths of the series that as one reads further into it , one has to reappraise what has taken place in previous books.

Consider what took place. The ritual depended on burning a person alive. MMD was not innocent, but, as I've argued upthread, she was certainly more sinned against than sinning. Her village was burned; she was repeatedly raped; her friends and neighbours were tortured, raped, and murdered for sport. The survivors were then enslaved (the children to be sold into brothels). Dany did not order this horror; she tried to mitigate it, but she is not blameless. Even before the assassination attempt, she had been urging Drogo to invade Westeros. He was doing what she wanted. Had Drogo survived, dozens of towns and villages would have been sacked, both to fund the invasion, and during the course of it. Dany acknowledges to herself that such devastation is the price of the Iron Throne. MMD had every right to take what revenge she could against her oppressors. Yet, she is the one who ultimately dies a very cruel death at the hands of one of her oppressors.

In subsequent books, live burning is viewed as an evil act by the most sympathetic point of view characters. Asha Greyjoy is almost sick when she witnesses it; Jon Snow gets his archers to shoot down "Mance Rayder" before the flames reach him; Davos risks his life to save Edric Storm from the flames. In the light of this, it's hard to conclude that the burning of MMD was a good thing.

If we view this in the same light as Stannis burning starving soldiers, or Melisandre burning her victims, we then have to question whether bringing dragons and magic back into the world is a good thing after all. From reading the Princess and the Queen, we see that dragons can cause horrible destruction to innocent people.

As at the end of the ADWD, I'd say it's very much an open question as to whether this was a harsh act, but a necessary one, so that Dany could bring dragons back into the world, and save it from the Others; or whether it was the first step on the road to her becoming a cruel and tyrannical ruler.

I agree with you that burning people alive in general is not a good thing, and in a lot of cases the people doing the burning are in the wrong.

But in this case I have to disagree with you. As we were discussing on that other thread, as far as Dany goes, what happened to the Lhazareen tribe cannot be laid at Dany's feet. At that point she is not in charge of the khalasar, Drogo makes the calls 100%, yes she had previously urged him to help take back her father's throne, but it's not like that was the first time it had been suggested. The original reason for marrying her to Drogo was to get Drogo and his khalasar to help Viserys invade Westeros. That was the deal agreed on by Illyrio and Drogo (kind of). So she is only continuing to encourage Drogo to continue on the original plan except her son will now be king instead of Viserys. Anyway Drogo commands the sack of the Lhazareen village, I seriously doubt him and Dany ever had a conversation of exactly what that would entail. I do not believe she knew exactly what would happen, and when she thinks 'this is the price of the Iron Throne' she means; war and death is the price of the throne, meaning we are starting the war and death now, and we will have to continue it all the way to KL. But besides all that, this is the first village she has seen sacked and almost immediately she sees that it is terrible and that she can't really take it, can't stand by while this horror is happening in front of her and she repels the idea. She tries to help the innocents as much as she can while 8 months pregnant. Also Mago says that the Lamb men were on the Dothraki sea where they shouldnt be, meaning 'this is our territory', and I am sure he did not just make that up on the spot, I would be willing to bet the Lamb men were taking a chance with their lives by being on the Dothraki sea at all, in the 'territory' of Drogo's khalasar. This does not justify anything, but it at least means that the lamb men had some idea that this could happen if they set up their village int his area. In the wild, animals would do the same thing to others who tried to live on their stomping ground. Lions are very territorial and would brutally murder hyenas or other lions who came on to their land.

Her biggest mistake is thinking that the woman she is saving should trust her after it's done. She does not grasp what has really happened to MMD and how MMD is broken inside. Having said that, it does not mean that MMD's bad fortune is Dany's fault. And no matter what MMD says there is no argument that it would have been better for her if Dany had not helped her. That's what I don't get, sure MMD's entire world was ruined, her neighbors burned, her temple desecrated and she had personally been raped several times, but Dany stopped the raping and tried to help her. If Dany hadn't stopped them then the rapings would have continued. If you have to choose which is better, to be raped 6 times or 20 times? I know that is a terrible question to have to think about but the obvious answer is still 6..... Also MMD made a point to go and Thank/bless Dany when Dany stops that raping, none of the other lhazareen do this, only MMD, so she is obviously happy enough when Dany saves her, even if it is only for a minute before MMD starts plotting her revenge.

So my line of thinking is that MMD has a right to take her vengence out on Drogo, Drogo's khalasar did this to her town, ruined her life and would have continued through the Dothraki sea killing and burning villages, so when she goes to treat Drogo's wound and Mago tells her she will fare as the khal fares, she knows what she is getting in to. She knows that when she is lying through her teeth and actually killing Drogo as opposed to helping him she is also signing her own death warrant. Basically I think she got her revenge on Drogo and knew she was going to die for it. But then she goes a step further to take revenge on Dany as well, and I stated, Dany does not deserve her revenge, Dany did everything she could to help MMD. So when MMD also tricks Dany into thinking she can have her husband brought back to life, then does whatever to Dany's unborn baby all just to make Drogo a vegetable........well she played with fire and Dany is in the right to kill her for it. I do not feel bad for MMD at all. She didn't have to come offer herself as a healer and a mid-wife, she chose to do that to take her revenge, so she put herself in that dangerous position, and it worked out exactly as Mago told her it would, she knew it would happen and she did it anyway. IMO, good for Dany, Dany did what was natural....MMD was cavalier with all that Dany held dear and Dany made her pay for it. Just like Drogo was cavalier with everything MMD held dear and he paid for it.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Very nice write up, Patrick. A very thoughtful and insightful look at much of the symbolism.

There's a marking of transition to adulthood with a great deal of ritual. MMD calls her a child, Jorah calls her princess and Dany balks at these labels. She even says "I was a child yesterday. Today I am a woman. Tomorrow I will be old." This is the normal course but it has been interrupted for Dany. Her childhood has been cut off early, her motherhood has been cut off before it began and men here wait to force her into the role of a crone before she has even begun to live her life.

I agree with this. In ACOK Dany even goes on to state to Jorah that "I may look as young as my dragons but I am as old as the crones in VD" or something along those lines at least.

Her having to step into a male role is emphasized again here when she asks for her oaths before lighting the pyre. Her promise to protect these people is the archetype of the Father, her bride gifts are those of the Warrior, the task before her is the rebuilding of the Smith.

I always thought the Jorah sword promise was a curious bit with a lot of potential.

I also agree with this. As MOIAF said earlier that burning of a women's hair represents loss of femininity, so at this point of the story Dany is stepping into a male role and the pyre burning her hair symbolizes that as well. And as we will see in the next chapters she starts braiding it with bells like a khal.

I think the same can be said in ADWD where Dany is contiuously being pushed into the traditional female Queen role and this is finally completed with her marriage to Hizdahr.

“Most queens have no purpose but to warm some king’s bed and pop out sons

for him. If that’s the sort of queen you mean to be, best marry Hizdahr.”

Her hair burns again at the end of ADWD and I think it is similar to what happened here, she is stepping into a male role again.

ETA: I also found the Jorah line curious, did Dany mean she will forge one for him or did she mean she will get one from him? The knowledge of Valyrian steel has been lost, I wonder if similar to how Dany knew how to hatch the eggs by instinct, she also has an instinct on how Valyrian steel is made, the least we know is that dragonflames are needed and at that moment she knew by instinct she would hatch the dragon eggs, so I wonder.

[SeanF]

.

Anyway Drogo commands the sack of the Lhazareen village, I seriously doubt him and Dany ever had a conversation of exactly what that would entail. I do not believe she knew exactly what would happen, and when she thinks 'this is the price of the Iron Throne' she means; war and death is the price of the throne, meaning we are starting the war and death now, and we will have to continue it all the way to KL. But besides all that, this is the first village she has seen sacked and almost immediately she sees that it is terrible and that she can't really take it, can't stand by while this horror is happening in front of her and she repels the idea.

She was appalled by the suffering that she witnessed. She did what she could to stop it. But, she urged a war that would necessarily entail such suffering. To that extent, she has to bear some part of the responsibility for what happened.

It's rather like Arianne trying to engineer a war between Dorne and Kings Landing. Arianne is not a malicious person. She just doesn't give much thought to the suffering that her actions would cause, if successful.

[Ragnorak]

ETA: I also found the Jorah line curious, did Dany mean she will forge one for him or did she mean she will get one from him? The knowledge of Valyrian steel has been lost, I wonder if similar to how Dany knew how to hatch the eggs by instinct, she also has an instinct on how Valyrian steel is made, the least we know is that dragonflames are needed and at that moment she knew by instinct she would hatch the dragon eggs, so I wonder.

It is a curious line all by itself, but the "like none the world has ever seen" turn of phrase reminds me of "a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been."

Here's the whole Red Sword of Heroes passage for reference:

“Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan, “and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

“Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

There's a lot of potential symbolism here that doesn't get a lot of attention like the flame images.

The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat.

The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame.

Lots of potential in there.

I'm also wondering about any possible significance to the eggs hatching sounds.

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

I don't have any specific ideas on any of this but it seemed worth noting if only to reference back to later. Curious that we get another wolf reference-- first shadow and now fire. The fire imagery part is also a rather nice bit of writing aside from any underlying meaning,

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It is a curious line all by itself, but the "like none the world has ever seen" turn of phrase reminds me of "a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been."

Here's the whole Red Sword of Heroes passage for reference:

There's a lot of potential symbolism here that doesn't get a lot of attention like the flame images.

The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat.

The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame.

Lots of potential in there.

I'm also wondering about any possible significance to the eggs hatching sounds.

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

I don't have any specific ideas on any of this but it seemed worth noting if only to reference back to later. Curious that we get another wolf reference-- first shadow and now fire. The fire imagery part is also a rather nice bit of writing aside from any underlying meaning,

I saw something similar in a Davos chapter with regards to the flames, from Ser Axell.

It seemed to me as I watched the fire this morning that I was looking at a dozen beautiful dancers, maidens garbed in yellow silk spinning and swirling before a great king. I think it was a true vision, ser. A glimpse of the glory that awaits His Grace after we take King’s Landing and the throne that is his by rights.”

I think the similarities are there, in Ser Axell's vision they are dancing before a great king and in Dany's vision they are dancing before her.

Does Dany= the great king? and Ser Axell has mistakened it for Stannis?

Stannis is one of the lies Dany must slay so maybe there is a connection there.

I also think this is a sign the funeral pyre ritual was connected to fire/rhollor magic.

I wonder whether the different animals represent the different houses in westeros.

[MoIaF]

I saw something similar in a Davos chapter with regards to the flames, from Ser Axell.

It seemed to me as I watched the fire this morning that I was looking at a dozen beautiful dancers, maidens garbed in yellow silk spinning and swirling before a great king. I think it was a true vision, ser. A glimpse of the glory that awaits His Grace after we take King’s Landing and the throne that is his by rights.”

I think the similarities are there, in Ser Axell's vision they are dancing before a great king and in Dany's vision they are dancing before her.

Does Dany= the great king? and Ser Axell has mistakened it for Stannis?

Stannis is one of the lies Dany must slay so maybe there is a connection there.

I also think this is a sign the funeral pyre ritual was connected to fire/rhollor magic.

I wonder whether the different animals represent the different houses in westeros.

Funny that you mention that, from Dany's last chapter in ADWD:

"From the corner of her eye Dany saw the grass move again, off to her right. The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her."

"...and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back."

The first quote always seem weird to me, why would GRRM mention that? Did he mean to point out that Dany would have a king to her right or as you have mention above could she be a "king".

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Funny that you mention that, from Dany's last chapter in ADWD:

"From the corner of her eye Dany saw the grass move again, off to her right. The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her."

"...and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back."

The first quote always seem weird to me, why would GRRM mention that? Did he mean to point out that Dany would have a king to her right or as you have mention above could she be a "king".

I remember that quote, I think it is connected to this also

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon’s body and a woman’s face. “A dragon queen,” said Tyrion. “A pleasant omen.” “Her king is missing.” Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. “The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.”

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Funny that you mention that, from Dany's last chapter in ADWD:

"From the corner of her eye Dany saw the grass move again, off to her right. The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her."

"...and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back."

The first quote always seem weird to me, why would GRRM mention that? Did he mean to point out that Dany would have a king to her right or as you have mention above could she be a "king".

I thought it might be the maiden's Vic burns but i don't have any textual evidence. They (small folk) talk of talking dragons 1,000 years old and pulling krackens out of the sea. Vic trying to play king and steal a dragon isn't going to go over well given that we run into a "talking dragon" who is really old and he wants to sail into the dothraki sea

The other mention of grass bowing is "the reeds" bowing to LS (and mentions of the brotherhood falling back into the neck), wonders if we and Jamie might be running to Howland soon

[MoIaF]

I remember that quote, I think it is connected to this also

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon’s body and a woman’s face. “A dragon queen,” said Tyrion. “A pleasant omen.” “Her king is missing.” Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. “The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.”

That's a very good parallel. So, is Dany's king missing or is she the missing king? I imagine with all the king imagery so rounding Jon, he might be the missing king.

[XSarellaX]

That's a very good parallel. So, is Dany's king missing or is she the missing king? I imagine with all the king imagery so rounding Jon, he might be the missing king.

Can we say Dany is "missing"? From Westeros point of view, maybe she is, but is not like mos people in Essos didn't know where to find her. Besides, there's no dragon queen in the 7K right now, so the pararell doesn't work.

I thought about Jon as well, but If he is the missing king, how does the “The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.” fit with his story?

[MoIaF]

Can we say Dany is "missing"? From Westeros point of view, maybe she is, but is not like mos people in Essos didn't know where to find her. Besides, there's no dragon queen in the 7K right now, so the pararell doesn't work.

I thought about Jon as well, but If he is the missing king, how does the The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak. fit with his story?

This is from Dany VI AGOT:

"As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings."

At the moment all I can think of is that perhaps it's a representation of the king being taken away where he lays hidden and forgotten (in Vaes Dothrak). I dono, does that sound plausible or too much of a stretch?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This is from Dany VI AGOT:

"As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings."

At the moment all I can think of is that perhaps it's a representation of the king being taken away where he lays hidden and forgotten (in Vaes Dothrak). I dono, does that sound plausible or too much of a stretch?

Also she saw another "king" statue in VD

From Dany IV AGOT amongst the things the Dothraki stole.

Also added the stone kings in the crypts of winterfell as a comparison.

Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mist of time.

The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones . . . I scream I am not a Stark

[Fire Eater]

Good job, Patrick

The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin.

This does bring to mind when the direwolf pups are spotted south of the Wall for the first time in a long time. Five of the pups were still suckling at the mother while Ghost had already moved off. Rhaegal and Viserion are suckling at their mother's breast wile Drogon seems to be on his mother's shoulders. Like Ghost, Drogon is the one who matures the most quickly, and he seems a bit more independent than his other siblings.

That's a very good parallel. So, is Dany's king missing or is she the missing king? I imagine with all the king imagery so rounding Jon, he might be the missing king.

I don't think it points to Jon as there is nothing to connect him to it IMO.

I saw something similar in a Davos chapter with regards to the flames, from Ser Axell.

It seemed to me as I watched the fire this morning that I was looking at a dozen beautiful dancers, maidens garbed in yellow silk spinning and swirling before a great king. I think it was a true vision, ser. A glimpse of the glory that awaits His Grace after we take King’s Landing and the throne that is his by rights.”

I think the similarities are there, in Ser Axell's vision they are dancing before a great king and in Dany's vision they are dancing before her.

Does Dany= the great king? and Ser Axell has mistakened it for Stannis?

Stannis is one of the lies Dany must slay so maybe there is a connection there.

I also think this is a sign the funeral pyre ritual was connected to fire/rhollor magic.

I wonder whether the different animals represent the different houses in westeros.

Also this from Duckfield

The moon was rising behind one mountain and sun sinking behind another as Jon struck sparks from flint and dagger, until finally a wisp of smoke appeared. Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead dry, pine needles. "As shy as a maid on her wedding night," the big ranger said in a soft voice, "and near as fair. Sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be."

...

Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the fire. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red and orange.
"Enough," Qhorin said abruptly. "Now we ride."