Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[Parwan]

Two points that I believe are worthy of development:

1. The claim, made in several threads, that Dany is all about entitlement and self-aggrandizement doesn’t stand up.

2. Mirri Maz Duur is an anomalous character and purveyor of cryptic statements. GRRM meant her to be this.

1.

In earlier posts, I said that Dany’s “blood of the dragon” claims are definitely understandable. In truth, they are a proper way for her to assert her authority in the tough situations she faces. The last two chapters show this clearly. Earlier, Dany just thought the “dragon” business or whispered it to herself. Now she is issuing orders, and she is meeting considerable resistance. We have Jorah continuing to call her “child.” We have Qotho saying things like, “It is not for a woman to bid us halt.” Would any of the followers of Robb, Cersei, Asha, Joffrey…behave this way? I think not. Dany simply has to make it clear who is in charge. We reach a critical point when Qotho sees Drogo’s condition and says this about the khaleesi: “When he dies, she is nothing.” Dany’s reply is, “Before I was khaleesi, I was the blood of the dragon. Ser Jorah, summon my khas.” This is the end of a long process. The young queen not only claims the authority to issue orders, she puts the emphasis on her blood, her heritage, not the power she has through her husband.

2.

“Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson.”

Some would say this. Can we take it that others would disagree? Is “the way” a good deal for “some”? One really can’t tell much from Mirri’s statement. It is vague; it was meant to be vague. Also, the maegi says she paid dear. Did anyone else pay for what she learned in Asshai? She did something or other. Presumably, she did it to someone. It seems to me that blood magic is not as tough on the practitioner as it is on the recipients. One wouldn’t know this from what MMD says here though. And what does all this have to do with being a godswife of a Lhazareen temple?

Note that I don't maintain the one thing has nothing to do with the other. Our only source of knowledge of the Lharzareen faith is MMD. We are not given any info on what the Lamb Men think about blood magic. And it still seems possible to me that Mirri's original offer to help was sincere. She didn't know anything about the prophecy at the time (unless one wants to attribute some kind of clairvoyance to her). How important would revenge be? If one khal dies, another will take his place. So what? That won't bring back any dead people, and it won't change Dothraki behavior. Also, I can't believe that MMD would have liked the idea of the sort of death that awaited her if Drogo died. On the other hand, if she cured him, she might hope for better treatment, both for herself and her people.

“Not your death, Khaleesi.”

If a person desires to be open and clear about matters, then said person can be open and clear about matters. If the deals is, “You will have to sacrifice your unborn son for your husband,” then this can be stated. Mirri Maz Duur is less open and honest than Rumpelstiltskin. Of course, Dany could have asked the maegi to spell things out. She didn’t have to presume that the death of the horse would pay for Drogo’s life. The business about seeking clarity in negotiations, especially negotiations with people you don’t trust, will be important in later Daenerys POVs. For now, I’ll just underline my claim about an anomalous character putting out cryptic statements. I think Martin wanted a character that different readers would read different ways. Did MMD ever intend to heal Khal Drogo? I don’t think the text will ever provide a definitive answer to that question.

[xspicer89x]

Ok couple of things I wanted to point out in this chapter.

1). When Dany, Irri and Doreah stretch Drogo out on the mat, his “no, no, no” in the common tongue is very similar to that first night when he and Dany first made love (i.e. all he said, all he seemed capable of saying). I found this kind of interesting given that Drogo’s regression here is also the beginning of and strong impetus for Dany’s “rebirth on the Dothraki sea” (the pyre scene).

2). As mentioned in previous posts, the sacrificing ritual is very similar to the one practiced by the Old Gods. In evidence of this, we can see how the sacrificing when Dany tells MMD to perform her bloodmagic is nearly identical (from the small descriptive details to the overall scene) to the sacrificial scene that Bran witnesses at the end of Bran III DwD.

“... a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, it's blade covered with ancient glypths.

The maegi drew it across the stallion's throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush.”

Compared to

“A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. "No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth . . . but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.”

3). Finally, it would appear that MDD possesses the same "smoke for fear" powder that Mel claims she has up her sleeves in her DwD PoV:

"Braziers were lit. Mirri Maz Duur tossed a red powder onto the coals. It gave the smoke a spicy scent, a pleasant enough smell, yet Eroeh fled sobbing, and Dany was filled with fear.

The question that I find most interesting about this similarity is whether or not MMD is using the powder only to scare away Dany and her handmaids so that no one interferes with her ceremony or does the powder actually have a deeper purpose to MMD’s ceremony? I like to think that it’s more than just a “smoke for fear” as Mel claims—she’s wrong way too often, and is certainly more of a novice than the master sorceress she attempts to portray to the outside world. Mel just doesn’t have the expertise that she would have us believe, so its quite possible that MDD knows a bit more about the powders true purpose (I.e. involved with sacrifice and sorcery), while Mel has only been noticing side effects (i.e. like the inducement of fear).

[yolkboy]

Daenerys VIII, AGoT – Only Death can pay for life

snip

Excellent analysis Arya, very thorough. Just a quick couple of points for now, as I have to be somewhere...

Inside the tent we see that the shadows are dancing – one in the shape of a great wolf and the other in the shape of a man wreathed in flames. This again is a curious ‘ice and fire’ reference or foreshadowing I’m not quite able to resolve, so I’d like us all to discuss this point.

Perhaps this is Ghost and the wight Othor, who Jon set aflame in a similar fashion. No idea why we would be glimpsing this, but shadows are the result of fire as Mel says. (apparently Othors burning came several months before on the timeline).

It's interesting, at this stage, to consider Mirri's overall association with magic. She has a bronze knife from the Old God's, sacrificing in their style. She's studied in Asshai, where the Red God must have had a huge influence on her (the only other time we hear the 'only death may pay for life' mantra happens to be with Jaqen when in Red God mode). She studied shadowbinding. She's from a deeply religious family, and is a Godswife to the Lamb God temple. She's studied birthing songs of the moonsingers (sings as the dragons are born). She knows herbal (poultice) uses of the Dothraki tradition and also the medicines of Maester Marwyn (!)

So much of this expertise seems useful to her role in the story in such a short space of time with Dany. It's quite curious. With Marwyn headed out to Dany, it will be very interesting to hear what he has to say about Mirri.

• MMD tells her that “Only death pays for life” instantly Dany thinks of her own life and hugs herself in fear. While contemplating this sacrifice she tells herself that is her brother Rhaegar died for the woman she loved so would she. However, MMD tells her it’s not her life she needs and then asks for Drogo’s stallion saying: “We need the blood” Mirri answered. “This is the way”. This is an insinuation to Dany and the reader that the stallion is the blood sacrifice that will be needed to bring back Drogo.

Later on Dany thinks to herself: “Only a horse” Dany though, if she could buy Drogo’s life with the death of a horse, she would pay a thousand times over” Clearly believing that the sacrifice of the stallion was what was needed to do the blood magic.

I don't think it was so clear, because of this....

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost.

Her reaction here is not to immediately disagree, but to question herself. Perhaps deep down she knew all along what the cost would be. She might be tricking herself by believing that a horse would pay the price.

[SeanF]

That's very good Arya Kidding.

IMO, MMD never told an outright lie to Dany, but she never told her the whole truth either. As I explained upthread, I'm very sympathetic to MMD, but I don't accept the argument that she acted in good faith, and fell victim to Dany's spite at the end.

Dany's actions will have consequences in TWOW.

1. Khal Jhaqo, Mago, and their followers must absolutely hate her, given the general reaction to the use of blood magic. I don't see any realistic possibility of negotiation between them. If Drogon were to fly off, I think Dany would be killed hideously. There'd be no question of her being brought back to Vaes Dothrak.

2. How will Marwyn react to someone who burned his student alive?

[MoIaF]

Ok couple of things I wanted to point out in this chapter.

1). When Dany, Irri and Doreah stretch Drogo out on the mat, his no, no, no in the common tongue is very similar to that first night when he and Dany first made love (i.e. all he said, all he seemed capable of saying). I found this kind of interesting given that Drogos regression here is also the beginning of and strong impetus for Danys rebirth on the Dothraki sea (the pyre scene).

Excellent observation. On your first point in order for Dany to become the woman she willl eventually become she needs to learn independence. She needs to learn how to take control and command.

I don't think it was so clear, because of this....

Her reaction here is not to immediately disagree, but to question herself. Perhaps deep down she knew all along what the cost would be. She might be tricking herself by believing that a horse would pay the price.

I'll have to disagree with this. I think we must consider two things when addressing why Dany questions herself at that moment.

1. The events that took place that day were highly traumatic for Dany. Not only was she in the verge of loosing her husband, she was very close to labor (An already stressful time for a woman). The events also happen quit quickly, one thing after another.

2. At the moment of her conversation with Mirri, Dany herself was just recovering from a miscarriage that almost cost her, her own life.

I think most people would question themselves at a moment like this. Trying to recall details of a high traumatic event can be quite difficult especially when everything spins out of control as it did that day. I would question myself wondering if I misunderstood or missed something.

Looking at the events as they were happening in this chapter I personally can't see any insinuation from either Mirri or Dany that the price to pay for Drogo's life was Rhaego.

That's very good Arya Kidding.

IMO, MMD never told an outright lie to Dany, but she never told her the whole truth either. As I explained upthread, I'm very sympathetic to MMD, but I don't accept the argument that she acted in good faith, and fell victim to Dany's spite at the end.

Dany's actions will have consequences in TWOW.

1. Khal Jhaqo, Mago, and their followers must absolutely hate her, given the general reaction to the use of blood magic. I don't see any realistic possibility of negotiation between them. If Drogon were to fly off, I think Dany would be killed hideously. There'd be no question of her being brought back to Vaes Dothrak.

2. How will Marwyn react to someone who burned his student alive?

Sean

I agree with you that Mirri is a highly sympathetic antagonist to Dany. She was within her "right" to take revenge agains Drogo for what happen to her people. In fanct, I believe Drogo had it coming, you live by the sword you die by the sword. My beef has always been with Rhaego's death. I also agree with you that Mirri was NOT acting in good faith.

Those are two great points. I think Marwyn will be a lot more understanding than Jhaqo but I don't see Jhaqo surviving his encounter with Dany.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

“You do not as a slave” Miri replied sharply “you tell her.” I found this quote to be a very curious think for MMD to say. Why would she say this to Dany what was the purpose.

Drogo says it to Dany the chapter before, just a subtle hint of her true intentions; when placed in a position of authority Dany's ability to read people seems to diminish or maybe it's just reading her underlings

As far as shadows go it may foreshadow Jon's resurrection (Mirr the dead will Dance hear this night and Patchfaces in the dark the dead are dancing in Dance.

I also wonder if Mirri's "prophecy" isn't made up on the fly but a real (old) prophecy she is just repeating

[MoIaF]

Drogo says it to Dany the chapter before, just a subtle hint of her true intentions; when placed in a position of authority Dany's ability to read people seems to diminish or maybe it's just reading her underlings

As far as shadows go it may foreshadow Jon's resurrection (Mirr the dead will Dance hear this night and Patchfaces in the dark the dead are dancing in Dance.

I also wonder if Mirri's "prophecy" isn't made up on the fly but a real (old) prophecy she is just repeating

Ah, how could I have forgotten. Thanks.

Queen A. reminded me that Dany sees those shadows appear right before she goes into the pyre.

[Parwan]

I'll have to disagree with this. I think we must consider two things when addressing why Dany questions herself at that moment.

1. The events that took place that day were highly traumatic for Dany. Not only was she in the verge of loosing her husband, she was very close to labor (An already stressful time for a woman). The events also happen quit quickly, one thing after another.

2. At the moment of her conversation with Mirri, Dany herself was just recovering from a miscarriage that almost cost her, her own life.

I think most people would question themselves at a moment like this. Trying to recall details of a high traumatic event can be quite difficult especially when everything spins out of control as it did that day. I would question myself wondering if I misunderstood or missed something.

Looking at the events as they were happening in this chapter I personally can't see any insinuation from either Mirri or Dany that the price to pay for Drogo's life was Rhaego.

...

Basically, I agree with Maester. There are other things to say on the matter. Most of them can wait until we discuss the next Daenerys POV. For now, I'll repeat some points I made above and ask two questions.

There are ways of negotiating with people who are not trustworthy (in particular people that you should not trust). Dany doesn't show a great deal of skill in this area. That's not surprising. In general, I'd say that diplomacy, or even basic negotiating skill, is not something that many characters in ASoIaF are good at.

Mirri Maz Duur put herself forward as a healer. She volunteered. Didn't she understand her situation far better than Dany could be expected to understand the rules of blood magic? Did MMD expect to die horribly if Drogo did not survive?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Great analysis Arya Kiddin !!! :D

I'm still struggling to understand MMD, whether she wanted to kill Rhaego or Drogo.

I think Rhaego is still a possibility, cause as she started to sing Dany's womb started kicking.

Also I agree with MOIAF that Dany being the only one that could see the shapes could be evidence that she became part of the ritual through Rhaego.

That's very good Arya Kidding.

IMO, MMD never told an outright lie to Dany, but she never told her the whole truth either. As I explained upthread, I'm very sympathetic to MMD, but I don't accept the argument that she acted in good faith, and fell victim to Dany's spite at the end.

Dany's actions will have consequences in TWOW.

1. Khal Jhaqo, Mago, and their followers must absolutely hate her, given the general reaction to the use of blood magic. I don't see any realistic possibility of negotiation between them. If Drogon were to fly off, I think Dany would be killed hideously. There'd be no question of her being brought back to Vaes Dothrak.

2. How will Marwyn react to someone who burned his student alive?

I also agree, that its unlikely Dany will get dragged to V.D.

If Drogon flys away they will kill her and rape.

Off topic but I also doubt Drogon will fly away, the last sentence of that chapter Dany refers to Drogon as her dragon for the first time in the chapter, earlier in the chapter she only referred to him as Drogon or the dragon, whcih I think means she has some control over him.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, Arya kiddin'

She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

The great wolf is Ghost, and the man wreathed in flames is wighted Othor when Jon threw the burning drapes on him.

Ok couple of things I wanted to point out in this chapter.

1). When Dany, Irri and Doreah stretch Drogo out on the mat, his “no, no, no” in the common tongue is very similar to that first night when he and Dany first made love (i.e. all he said, all he seemed capable of saying). I found this kind of interesting given that Drogo’s regression here is also the beginning of and strong impetus for Dany’s “rebirth on the Dothraki sea” (the pyre scene).

2). As mentioned in previous posts, the sacrificing ritual is very similar to the one practiced by the Old Gods. In evidence of this, we can see how the sacrificing when Dany tells MMD to perform her bloodmagic is nearly identical (from the small descriptive details to the overall scene) to the sacrificial scene that Bran witnesses at the end of Bran III DwD.

“... a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, it's blade covered with ancient glypths.

The maegi drew it across the stallion's throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush.”

Compared to

“A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. "No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth . . . but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.”

Add that in, and I think we have enough foreshadowing for Jon's resurrection using the magic of greenseeing associated with the Old Gods.

I also agree, that its unlikely Dany will get dragged to V.D.

If Drogon flys away they will kill her and rape.

Off topic but I also doubt Drogon will fly away, the last sentence of that chapter Dany refers to Drogon as her dragon for the first time in the chapter, earlier in the chapter she only referred to him as Drogon or the dragon, whcih I think means she has some control over him.

I think she will be taken back to Vaes Dotrhak, and Drogon will fly away or what would be the point of Dany coming upon Khal Jhaqo? Drogon hunts during the day, and flies back to his cave when the sun sets. She will be taken back to Vaes Dothrak for trial, like Cersei, for breaking the taboos of bloodmagic and shedding blood in Vaes Dothrak (Viserys came out with a visible cut on his head). How else is she going to be the STMW if she doesn't go back to Vaes Dothrak for the khalasars to gather?

[MoIaF]

I also agree, that its unlikely Dany will get dragged to V.D.

If Drogon flys away they will kill her and rape.

Off topic but I also doubt Drogon will fly away, the last sentence of that chapter Dany refers to Drogon as her dragon for the first time in the chapter, earlier in the chapter she only referred to him as Drogon or the dragon, whcih I think means she has some control over him.

I think she will be taken back to Vaes Dotrhak, and Drogon will fly away or what would be the point of Dany coming upon Khal Jhaqo? Drogon hunts during the day, and flies back to his cave when the sun sets. She will be taken back to Vaes Dothrak for trial, like Cersei, for breaking the taboos of bloodmagic and shedding blood in Vaes Dothrak (Viserys came out with a visible cut on his head). How else is she going to be the STMW if she doesn't go back to Vaes Dothrak for the khalasars to gather?

I don't think that Drogon will abandon Dany otherwise what would be the point of Dany's miscarriage and the blood getting on Drogo, also what is the point of having Drogo "break bread"/ share his food with Dany. I imagine dragons are at the top of the apex predator list, they aren't sharing their food with anyone.

Finally, has anyone considered that the khalasar was out looking for Dany? There are only two books left perhaps the crones have been gathering the khalasar because they know the stallion is on it's way. I think Dany is getting to Vaes Dothrak atop Drogo were all can see her fly.

Anyhow - as interesting as this topic is, let's leave it for when we get to the appropriate chapter.

ETA: I added part of this answer to the Targaryen & dragons thread in the General Forum. We can discuss there.

[Nictarion]

I think she will be taken back to Vaes Dotrhak, and Drogon will fly away or what would be the point of Dany coming upon Khal Jhaqo? Drogon hunts during the day, and flies back to his cave when the sun sets. She will be taken back to Vaes Dothrak for trial, like Cersei, for breaking the taboos of bloodmagic and shedding blood in Vaes Dothrak (Viserys came out with a visible cut on his head). How else is she going to be the STMW if she doesn't go back to Vaes Dothrak for the khalasars to gather?

I think you may be underestimating Dany and Drogon's bond. IMO there is no way he would fly away, and leave Dany in danger.

The Dothraki don't strike me as the type of people to conduct trials, if Drogon flies away, it would likely mean certain death for her then and there. I think she will go back to VD on her own, to fulfil the prophecy of her being TStMtW, by uniting all the Khalasars to follow her and Drogon.

Eta: Sorry MoIaF, I don't mean to jump ahead. I will stick to the current chapter now.

[Arya kiddin']

Maester of Ice and Fire:

Excellent analysis, Arya kiddin'! :bowdown:

• In the previous chapter when Haggo accuses MMD of being a maegi she tells him that she is a godswife a healer. Clearly misrepresenting herself from the beginning she wants to win the good graces of the Khal and his wife even mentioning that she has been trained in the art of birthing songs. However, one Drogo’s health deteriorates she admits to being a maegi and furthermore tells Dany that only a maegi can save Drogo now. Clearly putting herself in a position to do whatever she planned on doing.

Thanks Maester. :) It is a good catch. This intentional misrepresentation leads us to conclude that she wanted to win Dany's trust right from the start, and betray her later. Of course, it could be true that she merely did that to save her skin, as she might've known that people as superstitious as Dothraki don't take blood sorcery kindly.

“You do not as a slave” Miri replied sharply “you tell her.” I found this quote to be a very curious think for MMD to say. Why would she say this to Dany what was the purpose.

This is a taunt, she basically repeats what the Khal had said in the previous chapter. She is making the point that the Khal who had taken her for granted is now left at the mercy of arts she alone knows.

• MMD tells her that “Only death pays for life” instantly Dany thinks of her own life and hugs herself in fear. While contemplating this sacrifice she tells herself that is her brother Rhaegar died for the woman she loved so would she. However, MMD tells her it’s not her life she needs and then asks for Drogo’s stallion saying: “We need the blood” Mirri answered. “This is the way”. This is an insinuation to Dany and the reader that the stallion is the blood sacrifice that will be needed to bring back Drogo.

Queen Alyssanne upthread makes the point that Rhaego had started kicking as soon as MMD had started chanting. I disagree a little, as in the chapter itself it was mentioned that the child used to kick frequently now, and Dany's time was near. She mentions that Rhaego's kicking no longer interests Drogo as it used to - implying that it is a routine thing now.

Aggo, Doreah, and Irri tell Jorah to take Dany to the maegi once Dnay goes into labor as the maegi had claimed that she knew the birthing songs. None of them including Jorah know that no one is usppose to enter the tent. Dany is in too much pain to tell them not to bring her into the tent.

Yes, my mistake. I'd forgotten that Dany and Mirri were alone when Mirri said that no one was to enter the tent. No one knew this but Dany.

It seems that the only person who can see the shadows dancing inside the tent is Dany. Why is she the only one who could see them? Is it because MMD had made her part of the ritual (by carrying Rhaego)?

I didn't get the impression that Dany alone could see the shadows, but come to think of it, no one else mentions it either. :(

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Queen Alyssanne upthread makes the point that Rhaego had started kicking as soon as MMD had started chanting. I disagree a little, as in the chapter itself it was mentioned that the child used to kick frequently now, and Dany's time was near. She mentions that Rhaego's kicking no longer interests Drogo as it used to - implying that it is a routine thing now.

Oh ok, I think I missed that part.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Finally, has anyone considered that the khalasar was out looking for Dany? There are only two books left perhaps the crones have been gathering the khalasar because they know the stallion is on it's way. I think Dany is getting to Vaes Dothrak atop Drogo were all can see her fly.

Anyhow - as interesting as this topic is, let's leave it for when we get to the appropriate chapter.

ETA: I added part of this answer to the Targaryen & dragons thread in the General Forum. We can discuss there.

Probably looking for the Dragon, although I guess the Dosh could have issued a warrant (given that they knell in HOTUD) i doubt it's an arrest warrant

I am also curious to see if the blood spelt will have any role in the story

[bemused]

Just as a side note ,I feel compelled to point out that there is no actual proof that the old gods have any connection to blood sacrifice , as yet. We have two examples that show that men may have believed it would be propitious.. the white haired woman with the bronze sickle and the freed slaves at the Wolf's Den... but no examples ( as yet ) featuring the CoTF.

Robb's execution of Karstark was not intended as a sacrifice but administering justice. Ned didn't take the deserter before a heart tree to carry out his sentence , though he could easily have taken him to WF. The northmen in Stannis' army don't ask for a sacrifice to the old gods , they merely say it's the old gods that should be appeased .. without saying how that should be done.

The idea that "only death pays for life" .. or can buy favourable winds , or whatever , seem to come through religions or systems of magic originating in Essos.( so far)

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Just as a side note ,I feel compelled to point out that there is no actual proof that the old gods have any connection to blood sacrifice , as yet. We have two examples that show that men may have believed it would be propitious.. the white haired woman with the bronze sickle and the freed slaves at the Wolf's Den... but no examples ( as yet ) featuring the CoTF.

Robb's execution of Karstark was not intended as a sacrifice but administering justice. Ned didn't take the deserter before a heart tree to carry out his sentence , though he could easily have taken him to WF. The northmen in Stannis' army don't ask for a sacrifice to the old gods , they merely say it's the old gods that should be appeased .. without saying how that should be done.

The idea that "only death pays for life" .. or can buy favourable winds , or whatever , seem to come through religions or systems of magic originating in Essos.( so far)

indeed anyone have an explanation for how Beric came back w/o a sacrifice

[MoIaF]

Just as a side note ,I feel compelled to point out that there is no actual proof that the old gods have any connection to blood sacrifice , as yet. We have two examples that show that men may have believed it would be propitious.. the white haired woman with the bronze sickle and the freed slaves at the Wolf's Den... but no examples ( as yet ) featuring the CoTF.

Robb's execution of Karstark was not intended as a sacrifice but administering justice. Ned didn't take the deserter before a heart tree to carry out his sentence , though he could easily have taken him to WF. The northmen in Stannis' army don't ask for a sacrifice to the old gods , they merely say it's the old gods that should be appeased .. without saying how that should be done.

The idea that "only death pays for life" .. or can buy favourable winds , or whatever , seem to come through religions or systems of magic originating in Essos.( so far)

I do remember in Catelyn's first chapter that she mentions how Ned would always clean the blood from his sword after an execution around the Heart Tree.

[MoIaF]

Maester of Ice and Fire:

Yes, my mistake. I'd forgotten that Dany and Mirri were alone when Mirri said that no one was to enter the tent. No one knew this but Dany.

I didn't get the impression that Dany alone could see the shadows, but come to think of it, no one else mentions it either. :(

When Dany is being carried by Jorah and trying to tell them all not to take her into the tent, she says something along the lines of: "why can't they see the shadows dancing"

I think had they been able to see the shadows they wouldn't have insisted that Jorah bring Dany into the tent.

[SeanF]

Just as a side note ,I feel compelled to point out that there is no actual proof that the old gods have any connection to blood sacrifice , as yet. We have two examples that show that men may have believed it would be propitious.. the white haired woman with the bronze sickle and the freed slaves at the Wolf's Den... but no examples ( as yet ) featuring the CoTF.

Robb's execution of Karstark was not intended as a sacrifice but administering justice. Ned didn't take the deserter before a heart tree to carry out his sentence , though he could easily have taken him to WF. The northmen in Stannis' army don't ask for a sacrifice to the old gods , they merely say it's the old gods that should be appeased .. without saying how that should be done.

The idea that "only death pays for life" .. or can buy favourable winds , or whatever , seem to come through religions or systems of magic originating in Essos.( so far)

Just as a side note ,I feel compelled to point out that there is no actual proof that the old gods have any connection to blood sacrifice , as yet. We have two examples that show that men may have believed it would be propitious.. the white haired woman with the bronze sickle and the freed slaves at the Wolf's Den... but no examples ( as yet ) featuring the CoTF.

Robb's execution of Karstark was not intended as a sacrifice but administering justice. Ned didn't take the deserter before a heart tree to carry out his sentence , though he could easily have taken him to WF. The northmen in Stannis' army don't ask for a sacrifice to the old gods , they merely say it's the old gods that should be appeased .. without saying how that should be done.

The idea that "only death pays for life" .. or can buy favourable winds , or whatever , seem to come through religions or systems of magic originating in Essos.( so far)

So far as I can tell, the Old Gods are a Hive Mind, ie the spirits of those who've died continue to exist inside plants and animals and communicate with other living beings.

I don't see that they'd require human sacrifice. But, human sacrifice generates magical power within the series.