Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[Parwan]

Well, it's not just that she decides she doesn't want anything to do with it. If that were the case, she would have either refused to buy the Unsullied, or bought them and set them free, but she would not have killed the slavers in Astapor or in Meereen; and she definitely wouldn't have stayed in Meereen to try to rule the city and make sure that slavery does not continue with just reversed roles of former slavers and former slaves, as in Astapor. From everything we've seen, she does think the institution of slavery should end and wants to do her best to help bring it to and end. She may not have formed these thoughts in AGOT or ACOK, but by the time she went "dracaerys" on the slavers of Astapor, she definitely did.

I think we may be once again using language somewhat differently. There is also the ever-present danger of getting ahead of ourselves in the story. I'll limit myself here to saying that I don't think Dany ever has the intention of going on an anti-slavery crusade. For example, she does not and will not seek out allies that will help her attack slave cities which are not on her route west. She will take no actions to shut down piracy operations that take ships for the purpose of enslaving the crews, etc. We can discuss the issue further when we get to Slaver's Bay.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have to disagree with you here, it is wrong, in the same way that what the Master are doing in Slavers Bay is wrong. Just because something is part of your cultural upbringing doesn't make it right.

Now, I can understand why the Dothraki themselves don't see it as wrong. This is what they have known their whole lives, this is their way of life. However, what they do is morally wrong and atrocious in some instances and it needs to be stopped.

They should not rape, they should not enslave people and then sell them for profit. This is were Dany will need to prove to herself what kind of person she wants to be. She needs to recognize that the institution of slavery in Essos starts off with the Dothraki enslavement of free people. (I don't think that the Dothraki are the sole enslavers of free people but they are probably the majority). If she wants to eventually end slavery, she need to end it at its roots.

On the other stuff I agree with you, at least the Dothraki own up to what they are and what they do. The fine Lords of Westeros hide behind their cronies and then wash their hands of any wrongdoing.

You're right, that's what I meant anyway, that there is no law against the Dothraki doing it, and they grew up with it and don't know it's wrong. the people in Westeros (Tywin) know it's wrong and there are laws against it, but they do it anyway. Of course, it is wrong.

[MoIaF]

You're right, that's what I meant anyway, that there is no law against the Dothraki doing it, and they grew up with it and don't know it's wrong. the people in Westeros (Tywin) know it's wrong and there are laws against it, but they do it anyway. Of course, it is wrong.

That's what I thought you were trying to say but I didn't want to assume.

As to another point you made in your previous thread. It is worse what the fine Lords and Ladies of Westeros do in comparison to say the Dothraki. The Westerosi know its wrong and merely go about their destruction while for the Dothraki it is a way of life, the only way of life they have ever known.

It's very much in line in our world where Westerners frequently think that they are superior to the Eastern counterparts, more civilized. Yet us Westeners do war and mayham just as well as anybody.

[MoIaF]

I think we may be once again using language somewhat differently. There is also the ever-present danger of getting ahead of ourselves in the story. I'll limit myself here to saying that I don't think Dany ever has the intention of going on an anti-slavery crusade. For example, she does not and will not seek out allies that will help her attack slave cities which are not on her route west. She will take no actions to shut down piracy operations that take ships for the purpose of enslaving the crews, etc. We can discuss the issue further when we get to Slaver's Bay.

Parwan, I think you are correct in that Dany hasn't really verbalized her intent to end the institution of slavery. She wants to free slaves, she wants to end their bondage yet she hasn’t gone beyond freeing the slaves she encounters. She hasn’t really analyzed the citation in a way which would allow her to understand the full mechanics behind the institution.

My superstition (and I’m getting way ahead of myself) is that if she rejoins the Dothraki in TWOW she might be able to connect intellectually the idea that if the Dothraki didn’t capture and sell slaves then the system would suffer because there would be little to no product. Now, would she be able to see this and understand it in this matter, who knows. But that would be my hope, and I think it would also allow for her to leave Essos having given the institution of slavery a tough blow, tougher than just freeing the slaves she encounters.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Parwan, I think you are correct in that Dany hasn't really verbalized her intent to end the institution of slavery. She wants to free slaves, she wants to end their bondage yet she hasn’t gone beyond freeing the slaves she encounters. She hasn’t really analyzed the citation in a way which would allow her to understand the full mechanics behind the institution.

My superstition (and I’m getting way ahead of myself) is that if she rejoins the Dothraki in TWOW she might be able to connect intellectually the idea that if the Dothraki didn’t capture and sell slaves then the system would suffer because there would be little to no product. Now, would she be able to see this and understand it in this matter, who knows. But that would be my hope, and I think it would also allow for her to leave Essos having given the institution of slavery a tough blow, tougher than just freeing the slaves she encounters.

That's a really good point, and you know I feel like the Dothraki are more likely to listen to her than say, the slavers, because rumors of her coming out Unburnt of the Pyre must have circulated greatly through the Khalasars. They culture leads more to superstition or idolatry, this is based on what we have previously been discussing, they are more primitive and believe a lot of things that are simply not accurate but 'it is known' so they accept it. The word of her coming out unburnt from the pyre plus the dragons she has rasied I am sure has elevated her to 'God-like' proportions among some of the Dothraki. So now that she is back in Sea with her dragons, possibly about to take over a great khalasar will give her more power throughout the rest of the Dothraki. I think she could possible convince them that selling slaves is wrong because of her notoriety at this point.

(sorry getting really far ahead)...ok back on track :)

[SeanF]

My own view is that there is a limit to how far even the most dynamic, charismatic leader can take their supporters (even Alexander's and Caesar's men mutinied on occasions). As I said upthread, I think she might be able to mitigate the worst excesses of Dothraki warfare, but no more than that.

Even more so in that a war of conquest must necessarily be bloody and filled with atrocities. If she wants to conquer, then there will be times when she has to wipe out populations that resist, reduce towns and cities to ashes, in order to induce others to surrender.

[MoIaF]

My own view is that there is a limit to how far even the most dynamic, charismatic leader can take their supporters (even Alexander's and Caesar's men mutinied on occasions). As I said upthread, I think she might be able to mitigate the worst excesses of Dothraki warfare, but no more than that.

Even more so in that a war of conquest must necessarily be bloody and filled with atrocities. If she wants to conquer, then there will be times when she has to wipe out populations that resist, reduce towns and cities to ashes, in order to induce others to surrender.

I understand where you're coming from and it makes sense that an entire culture can't be changed over night.

Also, we need to see where Dany goes from here (the last chapter of ADWD), how she decides to handle her next step and what resources she'll have. But that's discussion for a later time.

[Arya kiddin']

My own view is that there is a limit to how far even the most dynamic, charismatic leader can take their supporters (even Alexander's and Caesar's men mutinied on occasions). As I said upthread, I think she might be able to mitigate the worst excesses of Dothraki warfare, but no more than that.

Even more so in that a war of conquest must necessarily be bloody and filled with atrocities. If she wants to conquer, then there will be times when she has to wipe out populations that resist, reduce towns and cities to ashes, in order to induce others to surrender.

That at the end is inevitable, it will happen when she reaches Westeros. Arguably, Robert's rebellion that displaced Dany's father from the throne was just as bloody.

[SeanF]

That at the end is inevitable, it will happen when she reaches Westeros. Arguably, Robert's rebellion that displaced Dany's father from the throne was just as bloody.

I'm sure that's right. Hoster Tully burned villages that belonged to lords who sided with the Targaryens. King's Landing was savagely sacked. We can assume that Jon Connington and Randyll Tarly were no more gentle towards people opposed to the Targaryens.

[Parwan]

A Game of Thrones, Daenerys VI:

Dreams of Home

...

Observations

• Despite their low status in the Dothraki culture, women are expected to show strength and resilience, too: pregnant women ride their horses up until the moment of birth. This puts into perspective just how little respect Drogo and the other Dothraki had for Viserys and what an insult it was to make him ride a cart...

• Everyone, including Dany, thinks of the Iron Throne as something to be conquered for the sake of her son Rhaego. At this point, it never occurs to her or anyone else that she could be the ruling queen of the Seven Kingdoms in her own right.

Analysis

The relationship between Dany and Drogo

The relationship between Dany and her husband has been getting warmer and more loving, and there is a lot more communication between them, even when it involves disagreements. The lack of language barrier is certainly helping a lot: Drogo seems to have learned more of the Common Tongue, in addition to Dany having learned of the Dothraki language. Dany does not mention the word “love” but the thoughts that show her strong attraction to him make her look like a girl who’s fallen, or falling in love:

It’s not a perfect relationship though: as we have noticed in the previous chapters, their sex life is still mostly described in terms of Drogo having pleasure, rather than actively trying to give pleasure to Dany; the opening line of the chapter is:

This is something that is only apparent to the reader, though - Dany does not think in those terms and does seem to find their sex life unsatisfactory, just like it never occurred to her that she could refuse sex with her husband when she doesn’t feel like it, but she does not have other experiences and has probably never been made familiar with the concept of sex as something that involves men trying to give women pleasure. Which doesn’t mean that she finds no enjoyment in their sex life; the fact that she is very attracted to him helps a lot.

Nevertheless, for Dothraki standards, or even the standards of the very patriarchal world of ASOAIF in general, Drogo treats Dany very well (though one could argue that he even treated her relatively well by Dothraki standards in the early days of their marriage, considering such Dothraki customs as khals sharing their wives with their bloodriders). He is warm, caring, he doesn’t mistreat her, he listens and appreciates her opinions and they discuss matters almost as equals.

However, all Dany’s power comes from the influence she has on Drogo, and Drogo is still unmistakably an authority figure that Dany feels the need to impress: e.g. she usually still rides her silver while heavily pregnant, in accordance with the Dothraki way of life, and doesn’t want to look weak in her husband’s eyes, but takes the opportunity to be ridden in a cart when he is away.

...

Conclusion

This chapter marks the turning point in Dany’s arc in AGOT. It is the first time we see Dany trying to make Drogo invade Westeros to regain her father’s crown. The first attempt on her life as well as the life of her unborn child wakes the protective “dragon” in her... This chapter is a bridge between the first part of Dany’s arc in AGOT, which deals with her marriage and settling into the Dothraki way of life, and its second part which describes Drogo’s doomed mission to take the Seven Kingdoms, which will end in tragedy and Dany’s rebirth as a Mother of Dragons.

The Dothraki respect strength. It is natural for them to expect women to be strong. A female who is sufficiently intelligent and/or determined and/or fortunate could use various demonstrations of strength in various ways. This relates to the relationship between Dany and Drogo. Her power is derived mostly, but not entirely, from his. Their sexual interaction is not entirely determined by him.

Dany leads her husband outside below the stars after what I think of as the "dragon conversation" with Doreah. The khaleesi has her handmaiden stay and eat dinner with her because she liked the young woman's answer to her questions about dragons. I would think that the two conversed a good bit about dragons. They probably also talked about sex. However, I'm sure that the practical "how to do it" instruction that Doreah gave Dany would have mostly been provided in earlier conversations. Some (maybe most of) this would have been about "pillow tricks," ways of being coy, ways of being flirtatious, etc. That's all fine. But when Dany leads Drogo outside, she becomes sexually assertive for the first time. This was clearly a surprise to the khal. Both he and Daenerys got a charge out of it. I'd think that they must have done things the same way now and again in their relationship.

I agree that this chapter is something of a bridge in Dany's arc. An important factor is her growing strength and confidence. Earlier, we discussed Drogon's motivation for marrying Daenerys. In my opinion, his main interest was a desire to have strong sons, or at least one strong son. Mating with a direct female descendant of Aegon the Conquerer sounded like a great idea to him. This only required that the woman have the right bloodline (or genes in our terms). However, as she continued to show strength, and even ferocity, in various ways, she would become more and more attractive to him. This display of strength would also be apparent to other members of the khalasar, and to Ser Jorah.

[Audrey Arryn]

I think Dany having the idea to light the brazier, is another sign that she was the one destined to wake the dragons.

Dany has no knowledge of dragons yet this came from her mind, I am wondering whether it had to do with her bloodline, or Dany herself.

I also adore Dany's trait of treating her handmaidens as her own family, this is one of her good traits that she has compared to the other characters I dont think any of the characters would buy their servants gifts.

Also the text shows the people from Asshai are dark skinned, another sign Quaithe and Melisandre aren't from Asshai originally?

[SeanF]

I also adore Dany's trait of treating her handmaidens as her own family, this is one of her good traits that she has compared to the other characters I dont think any of the characters would buy their servants gifts.

Without doubt, Dany's kindness towards servants is something that marks her out as unusual. Catelyn and her brother are similar. But, far more common is indifference or callousness.

[Parwan]

I think Dany having the idea to light the brazier, is another sign that she was the one destined to wake the dragons.

Dany has no knowledge of dragons yet this came from her mind, I am wondering whether it had to do with her bloodline, or Dany herself.

...

Bloodline and personality are not completely independent factors. She is, after all, Daenerys Targaryen, not Daenerys Lannister or Daenerys Arryn. And there are other factors of interest, one them being the matter of gender. Dany will come to be known as the mother of dragons. It isn't clear that either of her brothers could have done what she does.

[MoIaF]

Bloodline and personality are not completely independent factors. She is, after all, Daenerys Targaryen, not Daenerys Lannister or Daenerys Arryn. And there are other factors of interest, one them being the matter of gender. Dany will come to be known as the mother of dragons. It isn't clear that either of her brothers could have done what she does.

Quite so, after all only a mother can give birth. I don't think any other Targaryen could have done what she did, many had tried and failed. Her own great-grandfather amongst those yet she uniquely was able to. I don't know if there was a specific prophecy about this (there were definitely dragon dreams foretelling the return of the dragons) but I imagine that all those who attempted to bring back the dragons were doing so just bringing them back.

I also adore Dany's trait of treating her handmaidens as her own family, this is one of her good traits that she has compared to the other characters I dont think any of the characters would buy their servants gifts.

That's also one of my favorite traits, she does have a generosity of nature we rarely see in ASOIAF.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Daenarys VII

Summary

The chapter begins with a very pregnant Dany riding up on Drogo’s Khalasar having just defeated Khal Ogo’s tribe who were attacking a tribe of lamb men or Lhazareen. She is seeing for the first time, what it really means to be Dothraki. It is quite a gruesome scene, there are dead and dying men and horses all around, men going through cutting heads off of to end the suffering, and women behind them pulling out arrows and filling up their baskets. Behind them is a pack of dogs who come through at the end and feast on the flesh of the dead. There are also lots of dead lambs laying around full of arrows, Dany thinks that this must be the work of Khal Ogo’s khalasar because Drogo’s men would never waste arrows to kill lambs when there were still shepherds to be killed.

The leftover people from the Lhazareen and Ogo’s khalasar are being herded up by Drogo’s men, the Dothraki accept their fate as slaves but the Lhazareen did not. Dany pities them immediately she sees “Mothers stumbled along with blank, dead faces, pulling sobbing children by the hand. There were only a few men among them, cripples, cowards and grandfathers.” GRRM tells us that once Dany would have confused the two different tribes of people but now she tell them apart easily. Khal Drogo says that these lamb men belong south of the river, their mistake was coming into the Dothraki sea. Dany sees one boy try and run, the dothraki play with him, circle around him and eventually put an arrow in his back to bring him down, then leave him there.

Ser Jorah Mormont approaches Dany, he is wearing his surcoat, mail, gauntlets, greaves and greathelm. Apparently the Dothraki had mocked him as a coward for wearing his armour, it came to a fight, and the man who laughed at Jorah the loudest was left behind to bleed to death when Jorah was finished with him. Ser Jorah tells Dany that Drogo defeated Ogo and his son and took some minor ‘cuts’. Dany remembers Ogo and his son from Vaes Dothrak, “where every rider was a brother and all quarrels were put aside”.

She also is seeing how the dothraki take their spoils of war, there is a very disturbing sight as she continues through the remains of the village;

“A girl no older than Dany was sobbing in a high thin voice as a rider shoved her over a pile of corpses, facedown, and thrust himself inside her. Other riders dismounted to take their turns. That was the sort of deliverance the Dothraki brought the Lamb Men.”

Dany says her mantra ‘I am the blood of the Dragon’ as she turns away from the terrible scene, she hardens her heart and rides on. Ser Jorah takes no notice and continues telling her that Drogo’s Khalasar has taken at least 10,000 captives who are now considered slaves, made up of the remains of Ogo’s khalasar and the Lhazareen. Ser Jorah informs Dany he thinks they should drive the new slaves to Mereen in Slaver’s Bay where they will be worth the highest price. Dany reflects that this is the price of the Iron Throne. Jorah also says that Illyrio wrote and told him that there was a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. He then says that if enough children survive the journey they would fetch enough to buy the ships Dany needs to get to Westeros. Dany probably does not like what she is hearing at all and then the girl who was being gang-raped behind her lets out “a heartrending sound, a long sobbing wail that went on and on and on.” At that moment something changes in Dany, she tightens her grip, turns Silver’s head around and commands Jorah to “Make them stop!”, then says to her khas in Dothraki “Jhogo, Quaro, you will aid Ser Jorah. I want no rape.” The khas and Jorah are all perplexed by her order. Jorah tries to explain the situation to her, that the men have shed blood for the khal and this is their reward. Dany disagrees, she sees one man finish with the girl and another takes his place. Quaro, Irri and jhogo all tell Dany that the lamg girl is nothing, “It is known”. Dany still disagrees and says “I will not have her harmed, I claim her, do as I command or Khal Drogo will know the reason why.”

Her khas give her a strange look, but follow her orders. Ser Jorah says;

“You are your brother’s sister in truth”

“Viserys?”

“No, Rhaegar”

The rapists laugh at her khas when they try to stop them, 2 of them get killed. Jorah pulls the girl up and wraps her in his cloak and brings her to Dany and asks what to do with her. Dany sees the girl is hurt, trembling, covered in blood and tells Doreah ‘See to her hurts. You do not have a rider’s look, perhaps she will not fear you. The rest, with me.’ After that Dany is on a mission, every woman they pass that is being raped, Dany stops the rapists and claims the girls as her own. This infuriates the Dothraki who feel it is their right to treat these lamb people however they want, in the Dothraki warrior mind this tribe of lamb people are at their disposal, they have defeated the men, and now the women, children and elderly are their property and they can do anything they want with them. They do not understand Dany trying to protect these women. One of the lamb women (Mirri Maz Durr) “blessed Dany haltingly in the Common Tongue”. Jorah tells her she “cannot claim them all”, she replies, “I am khaleesi heir to the seven kingdoms, the blood of the dragon, it is not for you to tell me what I cannot do.”

When she gets to where Drogo is seated next to a pile of heads taller than him, she sees he is injured and has an arrow in his arm. She comments that he is hurt, he says he is fine. His Dothraki come to him with complaints that Dany has stolen their spoils of war. Drogo asks Dany to explain herself and she tells him what she has done in Dothraki. He tells her,

“This is the way of war. These women are our slaves now, to do with as we please.”

“It pleases me to hold them safe”, Dany said wondering if she had dared too much. “If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives. Give them places in the khalasar and let them bear you sons.”

Qotho Says “Does the horse breed with the sheep?”—something in his tone reminded her of Viserys.

Dany replies angrily “The dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike.”

Khal Drogo smiles, “See how fierce she grows! It is my son inside her, the stallion who mounts the world, filling her with his fire. Ride slowly Qotho….if the mother does not burn you where you sit, the son will trample you into the mud. And you Mago, hold your tongue and find another lamb to to mount. These belong to my khaleesi.”

During the raid, Drogo has taken a wound in his chest from an arakh (which Jorah claimed was minor), a very nasty cut leaving a big flap of skin hanging and the muscles underneath exposed. Dany is very concerned and wants Drogo to have his wounds treated immediately. He brushes off her concern claiming that the wound is only ‘a scratch’. She calls for the healers of the khalasar to come treat him, while they are looking for healers, the same woman who blessed Dany for saving her speaks up,

“Silver lady, I can help the Great Rider with his hurts.”

“The khal needs no help from women who lie with sheep” barked Qotho “Aggo, cut out her tongue.” Aggo grabs her and presses a knife to her throat.

Dany lifts her hand “NO. She is mine. Let her speak.”

“I meant no wrong, fierce riders.” –MMD says, Dany notices the robes she wore had once been the lightest and finest woolens, rich with embroidery, but now they were mud-cacked and bloody and ripped. “I have some small skill in the healing arts.”

“Who are you?” Dany asks

“I am Mirri Maz Duur. I am godswife of this temple.”

“Maegi” grunted Haggo.

Dany remembers Jhiqui telling her that a maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.

“I am a healer.” MMD said.

“A healer of sheeps” sneered Qotho “Blood of my blood, I say kill this maegi and wait fot eh hairless men.”

“Where did you learn your healing Mirri Maz Duur?” asks Dany

“My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered l;ong to study the healing ways of distant people. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a master from the sunset lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

Jorah questions her, “A Maester?”

“Marwyn, he named himself. From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech.”

“A master in Asshai, tell me Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?”

“A chain so tight it was like to choke him, Iron Lord, with links of many metals.”

He looks to Dany, “Only a man trained in the Citadel of Oldtown wears such a chain, and such men do know of healing.”

Dany asks, “Why should you want to help my khal?”

“All men are one flock, or so we are taught. The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them.”—Qotho slaps her, Dany tells him not to harm her, Drogo says the arrow must come out.

“Yes, Great Rider, and your breast must be washed and sewn, lest the wound fester.”

“Do it then.” Commands Drogo.

“Great Rider, my tools and potions are inside the god’s house, where the healing powers are strongest.”

Drogo has trouble making it to the temple and Dany helps bear some of his weight inside the temple.

“There” MMD said, pointing to the altar, a massive blue-veined stone carved with images of shepherds and their flocks. Drogo lays on it, MMD throws leave son the fire, filling the room with fragrant smoke. MMD tries to get everyone else to leave her alone to heal Drogo, but Dany and the bloodriders do not leave. Dany is so trusting of MMD that she assures everyone it will be fine, she must feel that since she saved her from rape (and that MMD blessed her for it) she can trust her to heal Drogo.

The Bloodriders hold Drogo down while MMD busies herself with bottles and boxes (and who knows what else). She takes out the arrow, while chanting in the tongue of the Lhazareen. She heats a flagon of wine to boiling, and pours the wine on the wound. She binds the arrow wound with a plaster of wet leaves. She smears the chest wound with a pale green paste and stitches the skin flap back into place. She then paints the skin with red ointment, covers it with more leaves and binds the breast with a piece of lambskin. She then says,

“You must say the prayers I give you and keep the lambskin in place for ten days and ten nights. There will be fever and itching, and a great scar when healing is done.”

MMD tells Drogo not to drink wine or milk of the poppy, that “pain you will have, but you must keep your body strong to fight the poison spirits.” He is putting on a tough face for his bloodriders and Dany, he says, “I spit on pain and drink what I like.”

Dany speaks to MMD “Before I heard you speak of birthing songs……”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe.”

“My time is near, I would have you attend me when he comes, if you would.”

Drogo hears her and says “Moon of my life, you do not ask a slave, you tell her. She will do as you command. Come, my blood. The stallions call, this place is ashes. It is time to ride.”

Qotho, stays behind for a moment to tell MMD “Remember, maegi, as the khal fares, so shall you.”

“As you say, rider, The Great Shepherd guards the flock.”

Observations and Analysis

1.--Jorah has absolutely no problem with what is going on here. He sheds no tears for these people being slaughtered, granted he is a knight, used to battle and fighting and has a harder heart than Dany, but he still comes from Westeros. He says in an earlier chapter that Ned Stark was in the wrong for exiling him, I thnk it’s pretty clear that Ned did the right thing. We can see that not only is Jorah nonplussed by all this, but he immediately starts telling Dany and Drogo where they should take their slaves and where they can get the best price. Not only Jorah but Illyrio as well, he writes to Jorah that there has been plague and how much they can get for their younger male and female slaves in Slaver’s Bay. So obviously Dany is all alone in Essos thinking that something about this is wrong. What is wrong with all these people?

2.--I had never considered before that Illyrio wants Dany to go to Slaver’s Bay, is this all part of his long planned Blackfyre Rebellion? He is trying to get Dany to get as far from Westeros as possible so that he can supplant fAegon in the IT instead of her. Using casual suggestions of where the khalasar should be headed while Dany is near-to-bursting pregnant. Yeah my ideal location for giving birth is definitely Slaver’s Bay……… :/

3.--Dany immediately shows how she is a better, kinder person than any of these men she is with. Even her hand maids, who I would think would be sympathetic to these lamb girls getting raped, do not care at all. Irri refers to the lamb girl as ‘nothing’……what is wrong with these people? Seems like anyone could see the anguish of the human crying and screaming nearby, but Dany is the only person in 100 square miles who gives any thought to these poor women. She is a sweetheart and a good person, and she tries to do her best in the situation she is put in.

4.--We see again that Jorah is 100% correct in wearing his armor, time and time again we see the advantage to being covered with steel instead of just skin and animal hides. Clearly the idea of taking the khalasar across the Narrow Sea to fight for Westeros is a fool’s errand, and no one really thought it could be done, Viserys was a moron to think it would work and Illyrio most definitely never thought it would actually happen. Selling Dany to Drogo with dreams of grandeur was all a big play to get her and Viserys killed, Dany messed it all up by falling in love with Drogo and hatching those eggs. Great laid plans of mice and men I guess.

5.--Dany knows she has done ‘wrong’ when she stops the rapes and takes the girls to Drogo, ‘wrong’ in the sense that she is going against tradition at this point, she is arguing with her alpha-male leader in front of his bloodriders. She does it anyway, she is so pregnant she can barely get on and off her horse. A lot of women in this position would just go to their tent and relax and not worry about the man’s business, but not her.

6.--When Dany is stopping the rapes through the village, most of the victims are not happy about it. They show no thanks to Dany, they stare at her with blank eyes. The only one who ‘blesses’ her is MMD. Now why is that? I think it shows that MMD is not from here, not part of this tribe, a transient from somewhere else, along with her unusual garb which is noted as costly and fine. Also we find out in a later chapter that MMD is actually not thankful at all that Dany saved her, at least that’s what she says, that Dany didn’t in fact ‘save her’, that she was already dead (or something to that effect). So then why is she making such a show of it to come ‘bless’ Dany and thank her in front of everyone? Here is the first instance of her lying and being deceitful, either it was a false thank you. Or she was sincere then lied about it later.

7.--When Dany stops the raping Jorah tells her she is truly like her brother Rhaegar. From this I think we can at least presume Rhaegar was a good person, not a genius, but at least a lot better than Viserys, Jorah, Drogo, Illyrio and even Irri. So good for you Rhaegar, you don’t agree with violent rape either, congrats.

8.--Dany relates Qotho to her brother Viserys while she is defending her reasons for saving the lamb girls. It is at this point when she speaks fiercely to him, like anything that reminds her of being weak and abused by Viserys fuels her anger. Drogo likes this fierceness in her and says “the mother might burn you where you sit”—a reference to Dany and fire.

9.--When they are discussing who will heal Drogo’s wound, MMD speaks up and offers herself as healer…..why does she do this? This goes back again to her future statement that she actually does not want to help Drogo or Dany’s baby. Why offer to help these people you hate so much? Why are you such a liar? Where did your nice clothes come from? How long have you been with this tribe of Lhazareen? Then MMD tells Dany and Jorah the story of where she learned her arts. If everything she is saying is true then she is quite learned, she studied in Asshai where Melisandre was taught, she was trained by her mother who was godswife before her….godswife of this temple? That doesn’t make sense given her fancy clothes, maybe she was born here, learned from her mother them went to Asshai? I didn’t realize they had scholarship programs in the Dothraki Sea.

Then she says she was also trained by Marwyn from the sunset kingdoms, he taught her all the inner workings of the human body. So then why with all this knowledge from Asshai and Marwyn would you choose to come back out to this tiny village and be a godswife? None of this makes sense, IMO she is either lying about some of it or I don’t know, something is not right here at all. She is out of place in this lamb tribe. Also she speaks the common tongue, which the other girls Dany saved, do not speak. Then Dany asks her why she wants to help to which she replies; “All men are one flock, or so we are taught. The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them.”—So does that mean she wants to help kill him so him and his khalasar will do no more damage to ‘the flock’? Or does she really want to help heal him?

So she lays him on the altar next to statue and chants while administering who knows what all over Drogo. Is she actually trying to heal him, or is she casting a death spell on his wounds? The trouble is, the bloodriders are against this happening and I believe they were right to warn Dany against this woman, however, the situation they are in is making Dany not want to listen to the bloodriders. The fact that they were ok with all the rape and have been arguing against everything Dany has said recently makes her and us not trust the bloodriders during this chapter. So it seems like the right thing to do to not take their advice at this point. BIG MISTAKE!! But it’s the way it’s written that makes you think Dany is doing the right thing at this point.

10.--MMD tells him “You must say the prayers I give you and keep the lambskin in place for ten days and ten nights. There will be fever and itching, and a great scar when healing is done.” And “pain you will have, but you must keep your body strong to fight the poison spirits.” Looking at both of these statements now, both of them could be bad for Drogo. Who knows what chant she is telling him to say, and why can’t he drink painkillers? In Westeros wounds heal just fine even if painkillers are taken. Maybe, IMO, wine or milk of the poppy would help him, but she just wants him to die or maybe they will counteract whatever poison she just put on his chest, we will never know, but for some reason she wants to put on this mummer’s show like she is trying to help him. Is the purpose of all this so that she can trick Dany and also attend Dany during her birth and kill the baby as well?

Dany did save her, and therefore thinks she can trust her, but she didn’t seek out MMD to help Drogo, MMD offered for no reason, just like she blessed and thanked Dany for saving her, which no one else did. MMD has had a rough time Ill admit, but she forces herself into Dany’s circle when she could have just stood there silently. It’s like she wanted to get in and cause all this pain and Death for Dany and her loved ones. And while I understand her hatred of the Dothraki, there is no reason to hate Dany, would she have preferred Dany did not save her? Did she want to be raped by 15 more people on top of the ones that already had raped her? Why all this vengeance against the only person who is actually trying to help you?

Sorry this was so long, I felt like a lot of these conversations may be needed for reference later on, and this way we already have them on the thread for easy access.

[Parwan]

Daenarys VII

...

Observations and Analysis

1.... Not only Jorah but Illyrio as well, he writes to Jorah that there has been plague and how much they can get for their younger male and female slaves in Slaver’s Bay. So obviously Dany is all alone in Essos thinking that something about this is wrong. What is wrong with all these people?

...

4... Clearly the idea of taking the khalasar across the Narrow Sea to fight for Westeros is a fool’s errand, and no one really thought it could be done, Viserys was a moron to think it would work and Illyrio most definitely never thought it would actually happen. Selling Dany to Drogo with dreams of grandeur was all a big play to get her and Viserys killed, Dany messed it all up by falling in love with Drogo and hatching those eggs. Great laid plans of mice and men I guess.

...

1. Dany is not all alone in Essos in her anti-slavery feelings. It seems clear to me that the Lhazareen are against the institution. So are the Braavosi. There are probably others.

It's worth noting here that "slavery" can mean different things. Also, slavery is not the same thing as the slave trade. Thralls are not the same thing as pure chattel slaves. There are slavery systems that are not as rapacious as the slave trade we encounter in Daenerys VII and elsewhere in ASoIaF. This will be of interest later in our discussion. Some posters on other threads accuse Dany of inconsistency or even hypocrisy. They think it's an all-or-nothing deal. Either you are completely against slavery, or you are some kind of slaver. This is not a realistic opinion.

4. The idea of taking a khalasar across the Narrow Sea has it challenges and uncertainties. The exact goals and intentions of Illyrio and Varys are not that easy to make out. GRRM likes to make things complicated. However, several people obviously believed that the idea had merit. Aegon (or fAegon if you prefer) and company at one point expected Viserys to join them with the Dothraki fighters. Also, Illyrio traveled to King's Landing to discuss the matter with Varys.

[xspicer89x]

One of the lamb women (Mirri Maz Durr) “blessed Dany haltingly in the Common Tongue”.

The only one who ‘blesses’ her is MMD. Now why is that? I think it shows that MMD is not from here, not part of this tribe, a transient from somewhere else, along with her unusual garb which is noted as costly and fine. Also we find out in a later chapter that MMD is actually not thankful at all that Dany saved her, at least that’s what she says, that Dany didn’t in fact ‘save her’, that she was already dead (or something to that effect). So then why is she making such a show of it to come ‘bless’ Dany and thank her in front of everyone? Here is the first instance of her lying and being deceitful, either it was a false thank you. Or she was sincere then lied about it later.

MMD speaks up and offers herself as healer…..why does she do this? This goes back again to her future statement that she actually does not want to help Drogo or Dany’s baby. Why offer to help these people you hate so much? Why are you such a liar?

Is the purpose of all this so that she can trick Dany and also attend Dany during her birth and kill the baby as well?

Dany did save her, and therefore thinks she can trust her, but she didn’t seek out MMD to help Drogo, MMD offered for no reason, just like she blessed and thanked Dany for saving her, which no one else did. MMD has had a rough time Ill admit, but she forces herself into Dany’s circle when she could have just stood there silently. It’s like she wanted to get in and cause all this pain and Death for Dany and her loved ones.

And while I understand her hatred of the Dothraki, there is no reason to hate Dany, would she have preferred Dany did not save her? Did she want to be raped by 15 more people on top of the ones that already had raped her? Why all this vengeance against the only person who is actually trying to help you?

I think you are 100% on the right track in questioning what MMD's motives are. Indeed why is she blessing Dany?

1. We know from later on that this “blessing” is not exactly saying “thanks”, since she had already been raped numerous times, will end up watching her godshouse burn, etc, and . . .

2. She may mean to confer well-being upon Dany (and by extension the stallion that rides within her) though this is also unlikely since she bears no good will toward Dany’s child and the destruction he will bring as the stallion that mounts the world (as evidenced by her actions later on).

3. It is more likely that, being a Godswife it was a more basic meaning of “blessing”, which is calling divine favor upon Dany (in this case, MMD is hoping the Gods will in a sense ‘take the time to consider’ this woman who may bring destruction; maybe they need to intervene, or maybe she was sent to intervene).

4. Or, MMD being a bloodmage, and GRRM being the history buff that he is, could have used it as a hint of things that have passed and things later to come; the verb “to bless” comes from Old English and can be shown to derive from the Germanic noun “blood”. Therefore, IMO, its literal meaning of “to consecrate with blood” is meant to foreshadow that Dany’s blood has been dedicated formally to a divine purpose.

§ In evidence of this, we have Dany’s eating of the stallion heart; a form of ritual meant to invoke divine favour upon the gods through blood sacrifice.

§ Though how MMD would know of this I am not 100% certain. However as you pointed out, she seems to be significantly well learned and out of place on the Dothraki sea. something is up.

[SeanF]

Many thanks for this analysis and summary, Suzanna Stormborn. My comments are:-

1. Ser Jorah is pragmatic and amoral. He's sold poachers into slavery, witnessed (and maybe participated in) the Sack of King's Landing, and doubtless had no qualms about burning villages and executing their inhabitants during Robert's Rebellion. This is normal in war. The suffering in the Riverlands at the hands of Ser Kevan Lannister and his lieutenants is every bit as bad. Even allowing for that, though, his suggestion that they sell children into brothels is an evil one.

The truth, though, is that this is the price of the Iron Throne. Anyone who wants to win it has to be hard-hearted.

2. and 4. I don't think so. We'll learn in ADWD that the Golden Company were expecting Viserys to turn up with a Khalasar.

However, we'll see again and again how important armour is, and how foolish it is to discard for reasons of pride.

3. Irri was taken as a slave herself. No doubt she experienced the same treatment as the Lhazareen women before being given to Dany as a handmaid. People who've been ill-treated can often be extremely callous towards other peoples' suffering, Think of Shae saying about Lollys "all they did was fuck her!"

5. and 7. A further indication that Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna.

6. I imagine that the villagers have tried to shut their minds to the horror that they've experienced. Even when the rapes are halted, their position still remains dire, however,

8, 9, 10. MMD's motives are open to dispute. FWIW, I think that her original offer to help was sincere. For a slave, helping to cure the Khal should result in better treatment. As the days pass, she sees her advice ignored, is kicked and beaten by the Dothraki, learns that Dany is due to give birth to the Stalliion that Mounts the World, feels increasing anger towards both Drogo and Dany for what was done to her village, and resolves to wreak revenge on the pair of them.

As an aside, I would say there was a great deal of justification for Mirri's revenge. If we had her point of view, we'd likely see her as a tragic heroine.

[Arya kiddin']

Very good analysis Suzanna, good job. :thumbsup:

1. Jorah is not exactly pro slavery, he's just an opportunist. He knows that a system exists, which he has no business breaking, so he thinks how best to utilize it. In those terms he is definitely pragmatic. Of course he doesn't score very high as long as morality is concerned.
   
2. As Sean notes, Golden company was waiting for a Khalasar to turn up with Viserys. I don't think we are in any capacity to speculate on Varys and Illyrio's motives as of now with too little to go on, who knows if GC were also being played or not.
   
3. It is apalling indeed to note that everyone in Essos takes slavery as a given, nobody is trying to question it. More apalling is the fact that no one, not even Jorah show slightest empathy towards these people. We know many slaves are well treated, so it is not necessary to humiliate them in this fashion.
   
6. We see that the women who look at her through dead eyes are thinking if Dany has saved them for some worse fate. As for MMD, I'm completely with you, and disagree with Sean - I maintain that she had sworn revenge right from the start, and all that she does afterwards was part of her scheme

Some more points.

1. Khal Ogo first, and then the son, Fogo, who became khal when Ogo fell.
   
   This clears up the fact, that despite the Dothraki following 'strength', bloodlines are important to them. Another nod perhaps to the conjecture that Drogo was indeed interested in Dany's blood.
   
2. I always like to draw up similarities between the fire and ice aspects of things. Here look what words GRRM uses to describe a Maegi, which we know MMD is, and so is Melisandre.
   
   A maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.
   
   Contrast this with:
   
   Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
   
   I don't know how convincing this is, but there it is. Poor poor Stannis, the firey Night's King..
   
   
3. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs
   
   Moon is once again being associated to childbirth - contrast this with Doreah's theory, you can tell Dany is indeed the moon, that kisses the pyre to have the dragons burst forth.
   
   
4. "I am no man," she whispered, "so you may lean on me." - As you say Lady Eowyn. :rolleyes:
   

[MoIaF]

Suzanne! Thank you very much and excellent analysis. :thumbsup:

1. Like others have already mentioned Jorah is a pragmatist. He has little scruples but that's the world he lives in - he can't afford to have any if he wants to survive as a sellsword. It is of course disgusting, he suggestion is repulsive and it shows the level of depravity of the people he so rounds himself with.

2 & 4. I know that supposedly the GC was expecting Viserys, but I'm not sure how this was going to work out. What I mean is, if Illyrio is as smart as he is made up to be than I can't see him thinking that Viserys would survive his time with the Dothraki. Illyrio knows the Dotraki well and he also knew how incompetent Viserys was. If you master plan hinges on Viserys getting the Dothraki to cross the "poison waters" then you don't have a very good master plan. So yeah, I'm in agreement with you. :D

3. I take the scene as a whole. At first Dany tells herself she is the blood of the dragon, she then tells herself this is the price of the IT but finally realizes that at this point she is unwilling to pay that price. What Dany does best is empathize, she can put herself in someone else's shoes, she knows how to relate. In this is why at times she has such a volatile temper, it's because she feels strongly, especially about the abuse of people who can't help themselves.

5 & 8. We have been discussing Dany's growing confidence with Drogo. She feels she has some pull with him and is able to stand up for what she believes. The Dothraki follow the strong, and Dany has demonstrated that she can be strong, in this she has earned her khals respect.

6, 9 & 10. I think we need to make a differentiation between someone willing to help and someone eager to help. After what happened to MMD I can see her being willing to help out in oder to get in the good graces of the khal, however, it's her eagerness that sends warning bells to my head.

I'm with you (I don't think that's where MMD's from, she is obviously a well traveled woman, what she there on a temporary basis, who knows. I will say that she knew exactly what she was doing when she so eagerly offered to help Khal Drogo, she really had no intention of helping. I don't blame her for this, she was in her right to seek revenge for what had happened to her. My problem with MMD is her taking vengeance on Rhaego, there was no need for that especially if she had already mess Dorogo up.