Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[MoIaF]

snip

Glad to hear you're okay. Excellent analysis - thank you! :thumbsup:

RockofFergus:

"I think GRRM was trying to convey how taken Drogo is with Daenerys, the intense passion he has with her than he can only last a short time. He could probably last longer with any other girl, but Daenerys is so desirable to him on an emotional level he can’t last long."

She describes taking pleasure in an earlier chapter, but I do agree he is not ideal. Daario is at his most annoying (in my opinion) when he's off screen

I don't doubt that Dany finds pleasure in her lovemaking with Drogo but that's more of a bonus than an actual result of Drogo consciously looking to please Dany.

Analysis

Adaptable… with limits

Daenerys ability to adapt is one of her strengths, one that her brother does not share and it has been talked about in previous chapters. But I will argue that this chapter hints that Daenerys is not fully commited 100% to the Dothraki and it is the way Daenerys views the Dosh Khaleen.

“Even the mightiest of khals bowed to the wisdom and authority of the dosh khaleen. Still it gave Dany shivers to think that one day she might be sent to join them, whether she willed it or no.”

It is clearly not a prospect that entices her. This is a mere hint, but she will clash with Dothraki customs and their way of life further down the road.

We saw some of this in Dany's last chapter when she was discussing home with Ser Jorah. She has accepted and embraced the Dothraki but at the end of the day home is still Westeros.

Rock of Fergus. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Has Daenerys (subconsciously) swept Viserys aside to make her son King Robert’s chief rival for the Iron Throne? Daenerys and Ser Jorah have had discussions on how poor a king Viserys would be

Her feelings about Viserys are conflicted (as we discussed upthread). She has realised that he's weak, vicious, cowardly, and incompetent, and guess he'll never take back the Iron Throne. So, consciously or not, she's already thinking of her unborn son as the next King.

However, we also see that she still thinks of Viserys as her King, and even refers to him as the King after his death.

As we discussed earlier it's not so much that she has supplanted her son for Viserys it's more that she realize as you mentioned that he's not going to be able to take the IT no matter how much help he gets. Deep inside I imagine she would want her brother to be king to get what they believe is rightfully his, but she also understands that he wouldn't make a very good king.

Her complicated feelings on Viserys have all these different layers of conflicting thoughts, that she has honestly not dealt with.

[SeanF]

As we discussed earlier it's not so much that she has supplanted her son for Viserys it's more that she realize as you mentioned that he's not going to be able to take the IT no matter how much help he gets. Deep inside I imagine she would want her brother to be king to get what they believe is rightfully his, but she also understands that he wouldn't make a very good king.

Her complicated feelings on Viserys has all these different layers of conflicting thoughts, that she has honestly not dealt with.

Imagine what a nightmare Dany's life would have been if Viserys had won back the Iron Throne, and married her.

[MoIaF]

I'm not sure if that's the case. Dany saw Rhaego - a man with copper skin and silver hair, leading an army, with burning cities behind him, in her dream while she was in fever after her stillbirth; and she saw the same vision as one of the "daughter of death" visions in the House of the Undying. Those seem to be the visions of what could have been if Rhaego had been born alive, if MMD had not performed the blood magic ritual to revive Drogo. This may have been what the one-eyed crone saw. The vision in THOTH suggests that the future is not set in stone; the prophecies and visions may refer to just one possible future, which was likely to happen at the time, but that was changed by MMD. If Rhaego had been born alive, Dany would have probably never hatched her dragons, nor would she become a leader herself - she may have even ended up in Dosh Khaleen, or at best, she may have become an a counselor/advisor to her son the way Catelyn was to Robb. But with Rhaego dead, Dany's path became a different one; she was 'reborn' in the fire, hatched her dragons, and became a leader and ruler in her own right.

Although probably unintentional, it's a very appropriate typo. :)

I've always found the STMTW prophecy quite intriguing. However, I have a different interpretation of the final line of the prophecy. The final line states: The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.

The most popular interpretation of this line is that the milk men in the stone tents are the Qartheen. This is, IMO, the more 'obvious' interpretation, the Qartheen are known as the Milk Men, due to their fair skin color, and they live in what the Dothraki call 'stone tents'. However, I don't think that the milk men referred to in the prophecy are the Qartheen. IMO, the milk men are Daenerys' enemies in Westeros.

WRT to the 'stone tents', the Dothraki are a nomadic people, and thus have no permanent homes or housing, so it follows that they would describe castles and other such permanent buildings and fortifications as stone tents because they have no words to describe such buildings. Qarth has such buildings, but Westeros is far more known for stone fortifications and buildings. Pretty much every castle in the Seven Kingdoms is made of stone. In her first chapter in AGOT she even describes Westeros as "a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords."

Westeros is overwhelmingly based on European societies and peoples. The Westerosi are very clearly white people, arguably with the exception of some of the Dornish. Since the Qartheen are called Milk Men because of their white skin, is it so far a stretch to assume that a Westerosi person could be described as 'milk-colored'? The Westerosi make far more sense, as it is very unlikely that Daenerys will go backwards to Qarth at this point in the story. Yes, she and Drogon destroyed the HOTU and the Qartheen were afraid of Dany, but her actions did not seem to cause Qarth any lasting harm, in contrast to how she has irrevocably altered Slaver's Bay. IMO, Daenerys' impact on Qarth is not significant enough to be such an important part of the prophecy.

The last line(s) of prophecies often contain the most vital information, so I personally think that her Westerosi enemies' fear is far more appropriate. It is almost certain that the climax of Dany's story arc will take place in Westeros, so it makes sense that she will make a huge impact on Westeros, and bring fear to her enemies. Daenerys is definitely heading to Westeros and she will surely unleash fire and blood upon her enemies.

About the STMTW:

Annara:

I see what you're saing and it would fall in line with GRRM's thoughts about prophecies. However, to me the stallion who mounts the world is a description of someone riding a dragon. What better than a dragon to mount the world. That's why i believe the prophecy was about Dany not Rhaego. As for the visions of Rhaego, I think of them as subconcious wants, thefirst in Dany's dream and then in the HOTU what she sees is part of her subconcious thoughts.

TheMysteriousOne:

That's interesting - I didn't consider that. And if you think about it it goes well with what SerJorah tells Dany:

"He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised."

Hello, Land of Always Winter... :D

Although probably unintentional, it's a very appropriate typo. :)

LMAO - That stupid auto correct! :lmao:

[MoIaF]

Great job again MOIAF!!!

Also I think there was foreshadowing of Dany being the moon that will crack from this quote.

"The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it."

Thank you very much!

That's an excellent catch, good job.

Imagine what a nightmare Dany's life would have been if Viserys had won back the Iron Throne, and married her.

Sean:

Let's hope that not even the staunchest of Dany’s detractors would wish that on her. That is a fate almost worce than death. .

[DragonDreamer]

Although "dragon" is often used as a metaphor/synonym for "Targaryen", Dany wasn't using it in that meaning, and neither was Jorah when he previously said that Rhaegar was the last dragon and that Viserys was just a "shadow of a snake". Obviously, Viserys is a Targaryen, but he was no "dragon" in the sense of being a strong, powerful, brave Targaryen who would make a great and fearsome leader. Now, great Targaryens do not have an immunity to fire - and GRRM has said that Dany's immunity to fire was a magical one-time deal - but Dany had at the time noticed that she was more fire-resistant than most people, including Viserys (maybe that was a result of her bond with and promixity to the dragon eggs?) so she was drawing a contrast between herself and Viserys, and realizing that she was the stronger of the two and potentially a better Targaryen ruler.

Dany's partial/temporary immunity to fire could refer metaphorically to Dany isn't threatened by fight or passion (fire and blood), but that stagnation and compromise can really hurt her (as we saw in Meereen).

I believe you are correct regarding the manner in which this phrased was used by Daenerys. If we go back to the earlier discussion of Daenerys previous chapters we see her have dreams about embracing her inner dragon or better yet her inner strength.

Viserys fed Daenerys a lot of crap about the greatness of their house and Daenerys took it in, there was no one else to contradict what Viserys was telling her. Once her marriage took place and she realized that as a khaleesi she had more power than she’d ever had before she was able to see and admit to herself that her brother did not have the inner strength of character or the courage to live up to their family name and that someone else would have to restore their house to its former glory.

At this point in the story she still has a lot of self-doubt, she most certainly wouldn’t see herself as the scion of her house, even though she becomes that when her brother dies. So, she images her son will be able to live up to her family’s name, that he unlike his uncle Viserys will be a true dragon. It’s not until she loses everything that she is force to become a true dragon herself, but of course she couldn’t become one if she wasn’t one already.

This is something that I admire about Daenerys she didn't give up where many would have, she understood the burden that had been placed upon her and took it. She didn’t want it, it was trust upon her and she is still learning to deal with it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I believe you are correct regarding the manner in which this phrased was used by Daenerys. If we go back to the earlier discussion of Daenerys previous chapters we see her have dreams about embracing her inner dragon or better yet her inner strength.

Viserys fed Daenerys a lot of crap about the greatness of their house and Daenerys took it in, there was no one else to contradict what Viserys was telling her. Once her marriage took place and she realized that as a khaleesi she had more power than she’d ever had before she was able to see and admit to herself that her brother did not have the inner strength of character or the courage to live up to their family name and that someone else would have to restore their house to its former glory.

I agree that Viserys fed her a lot of crap about the greatness of their house. Here is where I sort of disagree. Wasn't their house great? didn't they rule westeros and ride dragons (the only family to do so) for hundreds of years? And I have been re-reading and I cannot find one passage in Dany's POV's where she thinks to herself that she or her family is better than it is. She never thinks 'I am fireproof' or 'I can drink wildfire'.

If anything she has her little mantra that helps her through tough times "i am the blood of the dragon' . But in what way is she lying to or deceiving herself. She is the blood of the dragon. (IMO shown by having a baby that was basically part dragon, same as PATQ dragon-baby)(beside the point)

It has definitely not been proven yet that her family is not 'the blood of the dragon'.

IMO the only lies VIserys is telling her and himself is about how the Targaryens are so wanted and sought after, and how Westeros will welcome them with open arms. he is delusional in the fact that he thinks everyone is just sitting at home waiting, pining, hoping the Targs will come back. but what does he really say that is a flat out lie about the greatness of their family? and more to the point, what does Dany ever say that implies her family is greater than it was?...... She has some wrong ideas about what kind of man her father was for sure, but most of what she has heard about Rhaegar is correct. And she comes to her own conclusions about how she thinks it was stupid for Rhaegar to run off with Lyanna.

IMO there is too much said about the "targ propaganda'. Dany loves scalding hot baths, Viserys didn't tell her to like them, or that their whole family likes them. She just likes them naturally, and she has never been sick, she knows that, no one told her about it. She doesn't ever mention if viserys ever had any sicknesses or not, but I think we can assume he did not or she would have probably mentioned that int he same sentence right?

I just feel like people give them so much hate and grief for 'targ propaganda' but tell me what other family has been ruling westeros and riding dragons for 300 years, don't they deserve some credit?

This goes back to my thing that we came into these stories at the tail-end of their reign, brought on by Aerys being such a psycho asshole. But obviously he was the (arguably) worst Targ to sit the throne. He was the one who was overthrown and we as the reader get to know a lot about him, but there were 17 generations of Targ's who ruled and kept the kingdoms in order and rode dragons. Isn't it ok if Dany thinks she comes from a great family? Just like it's ok if the Starks feel they came from a great, ancient family.----Arya will never lose her sense of Stark even in THOBAW, because her blood is awesome and she shouldnt loose it. IMO Dany should feel proud.

[Parwan]

As we discussed earlier it's not so much that she has supplanted her son for Viserys it's more that she realize as you mentioned that he's not going to be able to take the IT no matter how much help he gets...

This relates to an interesting matter concerning the Eddard-Robert debate about Dany's marriage. On the way to King's Landing, Robert tells Eddard about the marriage. At this point, it appears that both men consider Viserys at least a potential threat. The Baratheon king says that there are still Targaryen supporters in the realm, and "If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him." Ned does not maintain that the young man in question is incompetent. He argues that he will not get the horselords to cross, and, if he somehow manages it, the Barateheon forces will throw him back into the sea. Things change entirely in the second debate. Now the threat is from the pregnant young woman. Her brother has somehow become an afterthought--"that fool Viserys." As readers, we know this is accurate. Daenerys is the threat. There is no reason, however, for King Robert and the Hand to have come to this conclusion. I believe GRRM slipped up a bit here. He is giving Bob and Ned knowledge that he and his readers have.

Another interesting point: Both Daenerys Targaryen and Eddard Stark have a thing about "the children." In both cases, this is an admirable trait that will cause the character problems. For Eddard, the problems start here. He insists that Dany is still really a child. This infuriates his king. Actually, in this case, Bob has the stronger position. Dany may wish that she could be a child, but she no longer is one.

[Annara Snow]

This relates to an interesting matter concerning the Eddard-Robert debate about Dany's marriage. On the way to King's Landing, Robert tells Eddard about the marriage. At this point, it appears that both men consider Viserys at least a potential threat. The Baratheon king says that there are still Targaryen supporters in the realm, and "If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him." Ned does not maintain that the young man in question is incompetent. He argues that he will not get the horselords to cross, and, if he somehow manages it, the Barateheon forces will throw him back into the sea. Things change entirely in the second debate. Now the threat is from the pregnant young woman. Her brother has somehow become an afterthought--"that fool Viserys." As readers, we know this is accurate. Daenerys is the threat. There is no reason, however, for King Robert and the Hand to have come to this conclusion. I believe GRRM slipped up a bit here. He is giving Bob and Ned knowledge that he and his readers have.

There was a lot of opportunity for Robert to get the scoop on Viserys from some spies and informants, or even just people who have heard stories about Viserys from Essos. Varys, naturally, does not tell Robert everything, but I'm sure he had to at least give him some information on Viserys Targaryen and his sister in order to justify his position as "the master of whisperers". And Viserys is so obviously incompetent that it wouldn't be hard to notice. Robert didn't plan to kill him after he heard of Dany's marriage.

[Nictarion]

There was a lot of opportunity for Robert to get the scoop on Viserys from some spies and informants, or even just people who have heard stories about Viserys from Essos. Varys, naturally, does not tell Robert everything, but I'm sure he had to at least give him some information on Viserys Targaryen and his sister in order to justify his position as "the master of whisperers". And Viserys is so obviously incompetent that it wouldn't be hard to notice. Robert didn't plan to kill him after he heard of Dany's marriage.

Yeah, Illyrio would likely have told Varys what kind of man Viserys was.

[Parwan]

There was a lot of opportunity for Robert to get the scoop on Viserys from some spies and informants, or even just people who have heard stories about Viserys from Essos. Varys, naturally, does not tell Robert everything, but I'm sure he had to at least give him some information on Viserys Targaryen and his sister in order to justify his position as "the master of whisperers". And Viserys is so obviously incompetent that it wouldn't be hard to notice. Robert didn't plan to kill him after he heard of Dany's marriage.

The opportunity to "get the scoop on Viserys" existed for years before Robert first spoke to Eddard about the marriage. If the Baratheon king knew about the young man's incompetence, why was he worried about the possibility of an invasion? Why did he think the beggar king had a chance to come over and lead a successful rebellion? And how is it that this potentially threatening fellow became a fool in the time (maybe a few weeks?) between the first conversation and the big argument? Anyway, Robert did plan to kill him after he heard of the marriage--

"I want them dead, mother and child both, and that fool Viserys as well."

There is a matter of greater importance here. We don't learn about all the info that Varys passes to the small council. It does seem certain that, as you indicate, there would be lots of people who would pass information about events in Essos to people in Westeros. The small council could hardly avoid learning things that "the master of whisperers" might not want them to learn. I have some questions about "intelligence" (in both senses of the word) that I'll bring up as we go along in this Dany thread.

[Annara Snow]

The opportunity to "get the scoop on Viserys" existed for years before Robert first spoke to Eddard about the marriage. If the Baratheon king knew about the young man's incompetence, why was he worried about the possibility of an invasion? Why did he think the beggar king had a chance to come over and lead a successful rebellion? And how is it that this potentially threatening fellow became a fool in the time (maybe a few weeks?) between the first conversation and the big argument? Anyway, Robert did plan to kill him after he heard of the marriage--

"I want them dead, mother and child both, and that fool Viserys as well."

Wasn't that after he heard Dany was pregnant? Robert's concerns about the Dothraki army weren't that strong when he thought it would just be Viserys trying to invade with a Dothraki army of his brother-in-law - he wasn't concerned enough to send an assassin. Who says that he didn't think Viserys was incompetent? He only thought the situation was critical when he heard that Dany was pregnant with the khal's baby. So, he considered a potential baby son of Dany and a Dothraki khal a considerably bigger danger to his throne than Viserys himself. Why would he think that, if he didn't presume that Viserys would be passed over, and it would be Dany's son that would be the real pretender to the throne?

[Parwan]

1. Wasn't that after he heard Dany was pregnant?

2. Robert's concerns about the Dothraki army weren't that strong when he thought it would just be Viserys trying to invade with a Dothraki army of his brother-in-law - he wasn't concerned enough to send an assassin. Who says that he didn't think Viserys was incompetent? He only thought the situation was critical when he heard that Dany was pregnant with the khal's baby. So, he considered a potential baby son of Dany and a Dothraki khal a considerably bigger danger to his throne than Viserys himself. Why would he think that, if he didn't presume that Viserys would be passed over, and it would be Dany's son that would be the real pretender to the throne?

1. We may simply be using words differently here. Robert said "I want them dead..." after he knew that Dany was pregnant. This, of course, was after he heard of the marriage. It wasn't immediately after he heard of the marriage, but I don't think that is too important. At any rate, Robert clearly indicated an intention to kill both siblings in the first Ned-Bob conversation:

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on..."

2. Robert's concerns were very strong. The fact that he didn't specifically talk about killing Viserys in the first conversation does not prove he was not concerned. He got Ned from his tent early in the morning and hauled him out on a long ride. He shifted uncomfortably in his saddle before saying that he did not like "this marriage." He worried about Targaryen loyalists. Then he talked about an invasion that he clearly believed could be successful. Try making a substitution in the quote I provided above:

If the incompetent fool crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him.

That doesn't make any sense. King Robert wasn't thinking of Viserys as incompetent at this time. It's clear from the later Ned-Bob argument that the Baratheon king believes that Dany and her son are "a considerably bigger danger to his throne." My point is that the transition to Viserys-the-fool idea is too quick. I'd say it is based on reader-author knowledge, not character knowledge.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

This is GoldenFleece2 aka RockofFergus aka GoldenFleece. Name changes all around lol. Mods thought it would be easier.

1. We may simply be using words differently here. Robert said "I want them dead..." after he knew that Dany was pregnant. This, of course, was after he heard of the marriage. It wasn't immediately after he heard of the marriage, but I don't think that is too important. At any rate, Robert clearly indicated an intention to kill both siblings in the first Ned-Bob conversation:

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on..."

2. Robert's concerns were very strong. The fact that he didn't specifically talk about killing Viserys in the first conversation does not prove he was not concerned. He got Ned from his tent early in the morning and hauled him out on a long ride. He shifted uncomfortably in his saddle before saying that he did not like "this marriage." He worried about Targaryen loyalists. Then he talked about an invasion that he clearly believed could be successful. Try making a substitution in the quote I provided above:

If the incompetent fool crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him.

That doesn't make any sense. King Robert wasn't thinking of Viserys as incompetent at this time. It's clear from the later Ned-Bob argument that the Baratheon king believes that Dany and her son are "a considerably bigger danger to his throne." My point is that the transition to Viserys-the-fool idea is too quick. I'd say it is based on reader-author knowledge, not character knowledge.

Hmm fools have won thrones before. Augustus Caesar for example wasn't an incompetent fool was not gifted with military strategy and he relied on his generals to win his wars. Even Viserys could have won Westeros if he chose the right people to rely on. If he was capable of it.

I've always been confused by Robert's apparent apathy towards the Targaryen siblings until the marriage. And we don't actually know if Robert actually tried to have them killed, there is no mention of it. We only know this part of the story through Ned after all.

But I would say a Dothraki - Targaryen at a head of a Dothraki army (which would be able to demands soliders from other free cities and afford sellswords) with a claim to the iron throne worried him, and worried Viserys as well by the looks of it. Targaryens are considered in Westoros to be potentially great monarachs and well-loved leaders as well. The coin could always land on the greatness side for Daenerys son.

[Parwan]

This is GoldenFleece2 aka RockofFergus aka GoldenFleece. Name changes all around lol. Mods thought it would be easier.

Hmm fools have won thrones before. Augustus Caesar for example wasn't an incompetent fool was not gifted with military strategy and he relied on his generals to win his wars. Even Viserys could have won Westeros if he chose the right people to rely on. If he was capable of it.

I've always been confused by Robert's apparent apathy towards the Targaryen siblings until the marriage. And we don't actually know if Robert actually tried to have them killed, there is no mention of it. We only know this part of the story through Ned after all.

But I would say a Dothraki - Targaryen at a head of a Dothraki army (which would be able to demands soliders from other free cities and afford sellswords) with a claim to the iron throne worried him, and worried Viserys as well by the looks of it. Targaryens are considered in Westoros to be potentially great monarachs and well-loved leaders as well. The coin could always land on the greatness side for Daenerys son.

Okay, let's put aside any consideration about how GRRM wrote the Ned-Bob conversations. I see a problem there, others don't. We can agree to disagree.

A more important issue is the one I mentioned in my second reply to Annara Snow. Elsewhere, I have put the matter this way: There is a lack of intelligence, in both senses of the word, on both sides of the narrow sea. Dany is sometimes criticized, legitimately it seems to me, for not trying to make any contacts in Westeros. That's an issue for later consideration. Early in the story, however, I started thinking about the powers that be in King's Landing: These people are almost entirely focused on screwing each other, figuratively and literally. They are so focused on this that they are ignoring some very serious threats to the kingdom. The threat of relevance to this thread relates to Daenerys and the Dothraki (later Daenerys and her dragons). Even with all the thundering of Robert, all the vile "steel kiss" and other comments from the council, most council members are missing some important facts. Varys is a man just about all of the nobles and all of the people view with suspicion, even contempt. Yet they seem entirely dependent on him for information about events across the narrow sea. Information is quite available. Indeed, it's essentially unavoidable. However, they pay just about no attention to it whatsoever. They depend upon this guy that they dislike and suspect.

One example will be instructive: The fat Pentosi cheesemonger is obviously an important man. He is a big Targaryen supporter. Can anyone fail to recognize him? Aren't his movements of importance to the crown? How is it that he came across the narrow sea and had a meeting with Varys in King's Landing, and no one reported this fact to King Robert or his Hand? Okay, maybe no one would recognize the spider in his disguise. How could they avoid recognizing Illyrio? Did they think the fellow was just in KL on business? What sort of "business" would that be?

[MoIaF]

Okay, let's put aside any consideration about how GRRM wrote the Ned-Bob conversations. I see a problem there, others don't. We can agree to disagree.

A more important issue is the one I mentioned in my second reply to Annara Snow. Elsewhere, I have put the matter this way: There is a lack of intelligence, in both senses of the word, on both sides of the narrow sea. Dany is sometimes criticized, legitimately it seems to me, for not trying to make any contacts in Westeros. That's an issue for later consideration. Early in the story, however, I started thinking about the powers that be in King's Landing: These people are almost entirely focused on screwing each other, figuratively and literally. They are so focused on this that they are ignoring some very serious threats to the kingdom. The threat of relevance to this thread relates to Daenerys and the Dothraki (later Daenerys and her dragons). Even with all the thundering of Robert, all the vile "steel kiss" and other comments from the council, most council members are missing some important facts. Varys is a man just about all of the nobles and all of the people view with suspicion, even contempt. Yet they seem entirely dependent on him for information about events across the narrow sea. Information is quite available. Indeed, it's essentially unavoidable. However, they pay just about no attention to it whatsoever. They depend upon this guy that they dislike and suspect.

One example will be instructive: The fat Pentosi cheesemonger is obviously an important man. He is a big Targaryen supporter. Can anyone fail to recognize him? Aren't his movements of importance to the crown? How is it that he came across the narrow sea and had a meeting with Varys in King's Landing, and no one reported this fact to King Robert or his Hand? Okay, maybe no one would recognize the spider in his disguise. How could they avoid recognizing Illyrio? Did they think the fellow was just in KL on business? What sort of "business" would that be?

You make some very excellent observations.

I would say especially concerning Illyrio. A man of his stature and wealth openly supporting (as far as public image is concern) the last two Targaryen princess should be of the upmost concern to King's Landing. Not only did he broker a marriage which would potentially lend 40,000 to the Dothraki to the Targaryen cause. He himself (Illyrio) has many resources. How can King's Landing not be worried or suspicious that Illyrio could lend his resources to the Targaryen claim, when he has already helped them and shown them loyalty (as far as public imagine is concern).

Also, being in King's Landing should have risen all kinds of red flags. I would say that perhaps the small council was to blind to see what was in front of their faces but wouldn't Littlefinger notice? He himself has very good resources.

[Parwan]

You make some very excellent observations.

I would say especially concerning Illyrio. A man of his stature and wealth openly supporting (as far as public image is concern) the last two Targaryen princess should be of the upmost concern to King's Landing. Not only did he broker a marriage which would potentially lend 40,000 to the Dothraki to the Targaryen cause. He himself (Illyrio) has many resources. How can King's Landing not be worried or suspicious that Illyrio could lend his resources to the Targaryen claim, when he has already helped them and shown them loyalty (as far as public imagine is concern).

Also, being in King's Landing should have risen all kinds of red flags. I would say that perhaps the small council was to blind to see what was in front of their faces but wouldn't Littlefinger notice? He himself has very good resources.

Your thoughts about Littlefinger are worthwhile. One of the interesting things that HBO did with the story is to give us some verbal duels between the master of coin and the master of whisperers. In one of these exchanges, Baelish makes an oh-so-coy comment about a stranger from the east who has been in town. I don't have the exact quote available. It's something along the lines of--there's this eastern merchant who came to town and had a meeting with someone important. Of course, LF doesn't give a damn about this, except in as far as it affects LF. As we would expect, he is looking for an advantage. He is letting Varys know, "Be careful, buddy. I have something on you."

Of course, the book is the book and the TV show is the TV show. In the book, we don't get any such conversation. Nevertheless, if there is anyone who suspects that the spider is up to something, is not being honest with the council about events in Essos, that person would be Lord Baelish.

For now, I'll leave the general matter where it is. There are some important things to say about intelligence and information flow in both directions--from Essos to Westeros and from Westeros to Essos. I'll have more comments after we get to other chapters.

[SeanF]

One example will be instructive: The fat Pentosi cheesemonger is obviously an important man. He is a big Targaryen supporter. Can anyone fail to recognize him? Aren't his movements of importance to the crown? How is it that he came across the narrow sea and had a meeting with Varys in King's Landing, and no one reported this fact to King Robert or his Hand? Okay, maybe no one would recognize the spider in his disguise. How could they avoid recognizing Illyrio? Did they think the fellow was just in KL on business? What sort of "business" would that be?

I'm sure Varys' intelligence network could get Illyrio in and out of King's Landing, with no one the wiser. I doubt if he was wandering openly about the city.

[Arya kiddin']

Great analysis, both Maester and Goldenfleece

One thing that intrigued me was the description of the cleansing bath.

The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it.

This as QA pointed out is pretty much related to shattering of the moon part, to have a dragon burst forth. The whole description sounds like sex. The specific mention of "lower lips" makes me believe it even more

Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips

And I do believe this coldness here may signify a Stark.

The stallion's blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth.

This implies her memories of Drogo would have been washed away by the time this foreshadowing - Dany taking a Stark to love comes true.

Three mounts you shall ride - one to dread and one to bed and one to love....

As Annara points out upthread, her relationship with Drogo is one he hasn't entered willingly, it is her coping with the circumstances. With Daario it is just her giving in to her physical needs - she does despises Daario as a person. So I believe this third mount to love may be Jon. :P

One more thing - Dany comes out of the womb of the world which is beneath the Mother of the Mountains. This kind of makes her the child of the Mother - the foremost Dothraki - more evidence pointing to her being TStMTW and clever wordplay by Martin. :D

[MoIaF]

Great analysis, both Maester and Goldenfleece

One thing that intrigued me was the description of the cleansing bath.

The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it.

This as QA pointed out is pretty much related to shattering of the moon part, to have a dragon burst forth. The whole description sounds like sex. The specific mention of "lower lips" makes me believe it even more

Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips

And I do believe this coldness here may signify a Stark.

The stallion's blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth.

This implies her memories of Drogo would have been washed away by the time this foreshadowing - Dany taking a Stark to love comes true.

Three mounts you shall ride - one to dread and one to bed and one to love....

As Annara points out upthread, her relationship with Drogo is one he hasn't entered willingly, it is her coping with the circumstances. With Daario it is just her giving in to her physical needs - she does despises Daario as a person. So I believe this third mount to love may be Jon. :P

One more thing - Dany comes out of the womb of the world which is beneath the Mother of the Mountains. This kind of makes her the child of the Mother - the foremost Dothraki - more evidence pointing to her being TStMTW and clever wordplay by Martin. :D

Arya kidin'!

Very interesting analysis - thank you.

Looking at the scene after reading your analysis of it I can see the sexual undertones of it. We know what a "kiss in the lower lips is" it's a Lord's Kiss... :D

I did note a comparison with Khal Drogo and Jon:

Tyrion II:

"He [Jon] had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away."

Dany V

"The khal’s face did not often betray the thoughts within."

[Arya kiddin']

Arya kidin'!

Very interesting analysis - thank you.

Looking at the scene after reading your analysis of it I can see the sexual undertones of it. We know what a "kiss in the lower lips is" it's a Lord's Kiss... :D

I did note a comparison with Khal Drogo and Jon:

Tyrion II:

"He [Jon] had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away."

Dany V

"The khal’s face did not often betray the thoughts within."

The Lord's Kiss was what I was gonna say too! But I was not sure if it is book canon or show only, so I didn't write it there. :lol: