Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[MoIaF]

The Lord's Kiss was what I was gonna say too! But I was not sure if it is book canon or show only, so I didn't write it there. :lol:

You know - I'm not sure now. I'll have to check when I get home.

[Arya kiddin']

You know - I'm not sure now. I'll have to check when I get home.

"Do it again?" Ygritte blurted. "With your mouth? The lord's kiss? And I . .. I could see if you liked it any." - Ygritte ASoS

It is in the books as well. :)

[MoIaF]

"Do it again?" Ygritte blurted. "With your mouth? The lord's kiss? And I . .. I could see if you liked it any." - Ygritte ASoS

It is in the books as well. :)

Yay! We remembered correctly.

[MoIaF]

Back to your interpretation of the scene:

It is an interesting association between the shattering of the moon (the return of the dragons) and the cold of the water. The dragons and the cold – ice and fire.

Getting a little ahead here but I always found it interesting that the prologue of AGOT is the Others, then we get Bran’s chapter (where they get the direwolves) then the last chapter in the book is the pyre scene where Dany gets her dragons. We start the book with ice and end in fire.

[SeanF]

The Lord's Kiss was what I was gonna say too! But I was not sure if it is book canon or show only, so I didn't write it there. :lol:

One can see why she'd like Jon, then.

I don't know if he'd be so keen on giving the Lord's Kiss to his aunt.

[MoIaF]

One can see why she'd like Jon, then.

I don't know if he'd be so keen on giving the Lord's Kiss to his aunt.

My guess is that he probably won't know till the end of the story. However, we don't know how Jon feels about incest between an niece / uncle - aunt / nephew, he never said anything in agreement to Ygritte's claim.

[DragonDreamer]

Your thoughts about Littlefinger are worthwhile. One of the interesting things that HBO did with the story is to give us some verbal duels between the master of coin and the master of whisperers. In one of these exchanges, Baelish makes an oh-so-coy comment about a stranger from the east who has been in town. I don't have the exact quote available. It's something along the lines of--there's this eastern merchant who came to town and had a meeting with someone important. Of course, LF doesn't give a damn about this, except in as far as it affects LF. As we would expect, he is looking for an advantage. He is letting Varys know, "Be careful, buddy. I have something on you."

Of course, the book is the book and the TV show is the TV show. In the book, we don't get any such conversation. Nevertheless, if there is anyone who suspects that the spider is up to something, is not being honest with the council about events in Essos, that person would be Lord Baelish.

For now, I'll leave the general matter where it is. There are some important things to say about intelligence and information flow in both directions--from Essos to Westeros and from Westeros to Essos. I'll have more comments after we get to other chapters.

I'm sure Varys' intelligence network could get Illyrio in and out of King's Landing, with no one the wiser. I doubt if he was wandering openly about the city.

Generally speaking the intelligence gathering operation as Parwan observed is quite flawed. The king completely relies on intelligence gathering from a man no one likes or trusts. Would you not think that even if Varys was useful the king would or could find someone else to be the Spy Master or at least find a counter balance for Varys so that he gets multiple views on the matter (I know there is Littlefinger but he’s technically the Master of Coins). This applies actually not so much to the king (who didn’t care) but to the hand.

Illyrio and Varys have been meeting for years wouldn’t you think that at least once Illyrio would have been seen by other people?

Going back to the analysis of Dany’s chapter:

Also I think there was foreshadowing of Dany being the moon that will crack from this quote.

Great analysis, both Maester and Goldenfleece

One thing that intrigued me was the description of the cleansing bath.

The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it.

This as QA pointed out is pretty much related to shattering of the moon part, to have a dragon burst forth. The whole description sounds like sex. The specific mention of "lower lips" makes me believe it even more

Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips

And I do believe this coldness here may signify a Stark.

The stallion's blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth.

This implies her memories of Drogo would have been washed away by the time this foreshadowing - Dany taking a Stark to love comes true.

Three mounts you shall ride - one to dread and one to bed and one to love....

As Annara points out upthread, her relationship with Drogo is one he hasn't entered willingly, it is her coping with the circumstances. With Daario it is just her giving in to her physical needs - she does despises Daario as a person. So I believe this third mount to love may be Jon. :P

One more thing - Dany comes out of the womb of the world which is beneath the Mother of the Mountains. This kind of makes her the child of the Mother - the foremost Dothraki - more evidence pointing to her being TStMTW and clever wordplay by Martin. :D

This is a keen observation and I honestly did not pick up on it. The cracking of the moon, like an egg, in the womb of the world, birthing the dragons, it’s all there clear as rain (now ‘_-)-*

GRRM once again has provided us with a subtle clue about the return of the dragons. Many people overlook (I did my first time) Doreah’s little story to Dany about where dragons come from. It is important though as we will later see, he has spread the clues throughout we just have to know where to look.

Arya – I like how you broke down the scene. I've noticed a subtle foreshadowing of Dany and Jon throughout her chapters.

It’s definitely sexually descriptive so much so that Drogo himself is aroused by it. Sadly, he only lasted three trusts (T_T). Could the three turst be also indicative of three husbands, who knows but GRRM sure loves Dany and the number 3.

[DragonDreamer]

I agree that Viserys fed her a lot of crap about the greatness of their house. Here is where I sort of disagree. Wasn't their house great? didn't they rule westeros and ride dragons (the only family to do so) for hundreds of years? And I have been re-reading and I cannot find one passage in Dany's POV's where she thinks to herself that she or her family is better than it is. She never thinks 'I am fireproof' or 'I can drink wildfire'.

If anything she has her little mantra that helps her through tough times "i am the blood of the dragon' . But in what way is she lying to or deceiving herself. She is the blood of the dragon. (IMO shown by having a baby that was basically part dragon, same as PATQ dragon-baby)(beside the point)

It has definitely not been proven yet that her family is not 'the blood of the dragon'.

IMO the only lies VIserys is telling her and himself is about how the Targaryens are so wanted and sought after, and how Westeros will welcome them with open arms. he is delusional in the fact that he thinks everyone is just sitting at home waiting, pining, hoping the Targs will come back. but what does he really say that is a flat out lie about the greatness of their family? and more to the point, what does Dany ever say that implies her family is greater than it was?...... She has some wrong ideas about what kind of man her father was for sure, but most of what she has heard about Rhaegar is correct. And she comes to her own conclusions about how she thinks it was stupid for Rhaegar to run off with Lyanna.

IMO there is too much said about the "targ propaganda'. Dany loves scalding hot baths, Viserys didn't tell her to like them, or that their whole family likes them. She just likes them naturally, and she has never been sick, she knows that, no one told her about it. She doesn't ever mention if viserys ever had any sicknesses or not, but I think we can assume he did not or she would have probably mentioned that int he same sentence right?

I just feel like people give them so much hate and grief for 'targ propaganda' but tell me what other family has been ruling westeros and riding dragons for 300 years, don't they deserve some credit?

This goes back to my thing that we came into these stories at the tail-end of their reign, brought on by Aerys being such a psycho asshole. But obviously he was the (arguably) worst Targ to sit the throne. He was the one who was overthrown and we as the reader get to know a lot about him, but there were 17 generations of Targ's who ruled and kept the kingdoms in order and rode dragons. Isn't it ok if Dany thinks she comes from a great family? Just like it's ok if the Starks feel they came from a great, ancient family.----Arya will never lose her sense of Stark even in THOBAW, because her blood is awesome and she shouldnt loose it. IMO Dany should feel proud.

The Tags were indeed a great house I won’t deny that (they are my favorite house after all, as my username might imply ‘_-)-*). However, you yourself have noted that Viserys provided Dany with lies incorrect information, which he probably told himself, about Westeros welcoming them. This was the type of poor propaganda I was referring too, that as well as the reasons for the fall of their house.

The funny thing is that in Dany’s first chapter she notes that these things Viserys is saying are pipe dreams, in specific I’m thinking about the scene were they are on their way to Drogo’s manse and Illyrio smirks at something Viserys says. Yet, she later sort of start to believe it herself when she talks to Jorah about her son in the IT.

What I want for Dany is for her to know the full history of her house. She has to learn about the great Targaryen as well as the not so great. She needs to have full understanding of her family’s history, this will allow her to have realistic expectation when she arrives in Westeros. This knowledge would also allow her to take off some of the pressure she feels. She has an ideal of what the Targs were and feels the need to live up to that ideal which is quite daunting for her. She needs to be able to put her family’s achievements in prospective and needs to be able to put her own achievements in prospective. She shouldn’t have to live up to her family’s ideal; she needs to live up to her own ideal.

As for the Targeryen differences to other people, GRRM has muddied the waters in regards to that. For example:

The hot baths, she likes them and GRRM has said that Targs do enjoy baths hotter than the normal person, but in Dnay’s third chapter when Irri and Jhiqui bring her tub:

Irri and Jhiqui fetched the big copper tub—another bride gift—from the packhorses and carried water from the pool. When the bath was steaming, Irri helped her into it and climbed in after her.

Obviously the bath is not so hot that Irri can’t climb in after her.

About the sickness, perhaps she wasn’t sick often but in the Dothraki Sea she noted she was catching a fever (which means she knows what it is from prior experience). I will say that the events of the Dothraki Sea were an extreme circumstance.

Truth be told the Targs were a great house, they controlled dragons for pete’s sake! But they also had a lot of faults and that’s what I want Dany to know.

[SeanF]

I don't think Viserys is deliberately lying. He probably has persuaded himself that people long for a Targaryen restoration.

And, nor is he completely wrong. There are people who would love to see them return, such as the Martells, as well as lords and knights who were dispossessed.

[DragonDreamer]

I don't think Viserys is deliberately lying. He probably has persuaded himself that people long for a Targaryen restoration.

And, nor is he completely wrong. There are people who would love to see them return, such as the Martells, as well as lords and knights who were dispossessed.

My bad, I probably should have used a different word. I didn't mean to say he was outright lying on purpose, he was lying to himself believing what he needed to believe to sustain his dream and thus fed Dany what he believed.

To the point that people would be waiting for the true king to return, I don’t believe that the support of a few houses and scattered knights was what he was referring too. Their support would not have been much use ageist a united Westeros. To me it seemed he was saying that the majority of houses would rise up once he arrived in Westeros.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The Tags were indeed a great house I won’t deny that (they are my favorite house after all, as my username might imply ‘_-)-*). However, you yourself have noted that Viserys provided Dany with lies incorrect information, which he probably told himself, about Westeros welcoming them. This was the type of poor propaganda I was referring too, that as well as the reasons for the fall of their house.

The funny thing is that in Dany’s first chapter she notes that these things Viserys is saying are pipe dreams, in specific I’m thinking about the scene were they are on their way to Drogo’s manse and Illyrio smirks at something Viserys says. Yet, she later sort of start to believe it herself when she talks to Jorah about her son in the IT.

What I want for Dany is for her to know the full history of her house. She has to learn about the great Targaryen as well as the not so great. She needs to have full understanding of her family’s history, this will allow her to have realistic expectation when she arrives in Westeros. This knowledge would also allow her to take off some of the pressure she feels. She has an ideal of what the Targs were and feels the need to live up to that ideal which is quite daunting for her. She needs to be able to put her family’s achievements in prospective and needs to be able to put her own achievements in prospective. She shouldn’t have to live up to her family’s ideal; she needs to live up to her own ideal.

As for the Targeryen differences to other people, GRRM has muddied the waters in regards to that. For example:

The hot baths, she likes them and GRRM has said that Targs do enjoy baths hotter than the normal person, but in Dnay’s third chapter when Irri and Jhiqui bring her tub:

Obviously the bath is not so hot that Irri can’t climb in after her.

About the sickness, perhaps she wasn’t sick often but in the Dothraki Sea she noted she was catching a fever (which means she knows what it is from prior experience). I will say that the events of the Dothraki Sea were an extreme circumstance.

Truth be told the Targs were a great house, they controlled dragons for pete’s sake! But they also had a lot of faults and that’s what I want Dany to know.

Yes I agree it would be best all around if Dany knows the complete and true history of her entire family so she can learn from past mistakes and know which past kings and Queens she should look to for guidance, especially concerning her dragons. I just feel like the house is so diminished at this point, and viserys is a perfect example of all thats left of once great house. But I still think that they are a great and powerful family and there is nothing wrong with having family pride. And I also think that a ton of the 'dany-haters' posts about false family propaganda are incorrect. IMO Viserys is paranoid, shown in the first/second chapters when Dany remembers moving all over Essos trying to escape the usurpers killers, but she never even sees any evidence that they were being chased. And we, the reader, know that Robert was in fact not chasing them until after she married Drogo. So a lot of what viserys thinks is just weird thinking brought on by years of paranoia. Haha actually his character to me has a lot of parallels to Cate Blanchett in Blue Jasmine. The rich and powerful go nuts when all their money and power is taken away.

the 'bath' passage above is an example of Dany getting into a regular heated bath, but there are other examples of the bath being above normal temperature. I don't remember her getting a high-fever, are you referring to her being pregnant or when she is in the red waste? Either way Ill admit there isn't much to the sickness immunity thing, as it doesn't come to play much in any of the books, but I dont think she is lying when she thinks that she has never been ill int he past 13 years of her life (although that's not very long, and therefore not so impressive).

But a lot of the houses do take pride in their families and past stories and none of them have ever tamed and rode dragons and ruled the seven kingdoms for 17 generations. The Baratheons are the only other and we see what a giant mess they made of everything. Brothers to war against brothers fighting for the throne, definitely they have no room to talk about being better or more civilized than the Targaryens. from PATQ we learn that when Targaryens fight more people could die due to the addition of the dragons. But, IMO, Dany and even Viserys have a lot to be proud of from their history. But yes I 100% agree that Dany needs a very accurate and detailed lesson about exactly who in her family was a maniac and who should be looked up to.

I don't think Viserys is deliberately lying. He probably has persuaded himself that people long for a Targaryen restoration.

And, nor is he completely wrong. There are people who would love to see them return, such as the Martells, as well as lords and knights who were dispossessed.

there definitely are people secretly routing for Targ's, even Robert admits as much to Ned in GOT. Which is why he wants to destroy them so bad, I just don't think it is quite as widespread as Viserys believes.

My bad, I probably should have used a different word. I didn't mean to say he was outright lying on purpose, he was lying to himself believing what he needed to believe to sustain his dream and thus fed Dany what he believed.

To the point that people would be waiting for the true king to return, I don’t believe that the support of a few houses and scattered knights was what he was referring too. Their support would not have been much use ageist a united Westeros. To me it seemed he was saying that the majority of houses would rise up once he arrived in Westeros.

Yes he is wrong about that. But I don't recall any passages where Dany feels the same way, that Westeros is just sitting there pining for her return... I could be wrong...

[Annara Snow]

Great analysis, both Maester and Goldenfleece

One thing that intrigued me was the description of the cleansing bath.

The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it.

This as QA pointed out is pretty much related to shattering of the moon part, to have a dragon burst forth. The whole description sounds like sex. The specific mention of "lower lips" makes me believe it even more

Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips

And I do believe this coldness here may signify a Stark.

The stallion's blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth.

This implies her memories of Drogo would have been washed away by the time this foreshadowing - Dany taking a Stark to love comes true.

Three mounts you shall ride - one to dread and one to bed and one to love....

As Annara points out upthread, her relationship with Drogo is one he hasn't entered willingly, it is her coping with the circumstances. With Daario it is just her giving in to her physical needs - she does despises Daario as a person. So I believe this third mount to love may be Jon. :P

This is more of a subject for ADWD... But I wouldn't agree that she despises Daario as a person, or that it's just about physical needs. She was purely indulging her physical needs with Irri, who she didn't feel any attraction for. But she's very much taken with Daario - with his confidence, flamboyance, bluntness and unapologetic sexuality, as much as with his looks. Dany thinks she's in love with him - and it's a kind of love, although not a particularly deep one, it's more like an intense infatuation. She doesn't trust Daario, she is aware that he is not the "stuff of kings", and a part of her even tells her he's a "monster" when he openly tells her his views of what she should do. But she still dreams of him, and imagines a life as an ordinary woman with him, in those moments when she allows herself impossible escapist dreams. I certainly don't see Daario as the so-called "endgame" relationship for Dany, and I do think she will have a third, deeper love (and like you, I suspect it will be Jon, based on bits of foreshadowing) but he is, or was, what Dany needed. He was pretty much the only way of sunshine in her life in Meereen - the more she - afraid of being a "monster" - made herself be a "queen" who makes compromises and makes peace with the slavers and goes against her instincts, the more the other, more primal part of her nature was drawn for Daario as an epitome of an uncomplicated approach to life that she secretly longs for but could not afford. The scene where she sends Daario away, calling him a monster, is the one where he asks her if she has forgotten who she is.

At the end of ADWD, after she had flown away from Meereen with Drogon, she contrasts him favorably with Hizdahr: "Daario would just laugh and cut a chuck of meat" - showing that those two men were epitomes of two different approaches to ruling and dealing with enemies that Dany was torn between, and that she was at that point definitely done with Hizdahr and all he represented - the peace that comes at the cost of compromising herself, her principles, and all she stands for and had achieved before. If ever was a book that made the point that peace is not always a good thing, it's ADWD. Does that mean that she's completely on the side of "Daario" - unapologetic use of violence to deal with the enemies and achieve what you want? I hope she doesn't go into that extreme, either, and finds a wiser middle ground.

[Parwan]

Generally speaking the intelligence gathering operation as Parwan observed is quite flawed. The king completely relies on intelligence gathering from a man no one likes or trusts. Would you not think that even if Varys was useful the king would or could find someone else to be the Spy Master or at least find a counter balance for Varys so that he gets multiple views on the matter (I know there is Littlefinger but he’s technically the Master of Coins). This applies actually not so much to the king (who didn’t care) but to the hand.

Illyrio and Varys have been meeting for years wouldn’t you think that at least once Illyrio would have been seen by other people?

...

Yes, the intelligence gathering is flawed. This, in my opinion, is part of a general downward spiral of things. I've developed a series of threads with the overall title of "Systemic Problems." The idea is that the entire society and polity of the 7K is in serious trouble. It's not just a matter of some bad leadership. There is institutional failure on a large scale. Some matters are relevant to this thread, and I'll go into them more deeply after we've progressed further into the story. For now, consider this:

The spymaster is a traitor. The man who is supposed to inform the crown about threats from its enemies is himself one of the crown's worst enemies. He has been an enemy from day one. He didn't go over to the other side part way through the game. He wasn't paid off. He swore a false oath. On the day he bent the knee, he was already working toward the downfall of the Baratheon dynasty.

[Arya kiddin']

One can see why she'd like Jon, then.

I don't know if he'd be so keen on giving the Lord's Kiss to his aunt.

Yes. A claim not by birthright, but by conquest. Agreed. :rolleyes:

Back to your interpretation of the scene:

It is an interesting association between the shattering of the moon (the return of the dragons) and the cold of the water. The dragons and the cold – ice and fire.

Getting a little ahead here but I always found it interesting that the prologue of AGOT is the Others, then we get Bran’s chapter (where they get the direwolves) then the last chapter in the book is the pyre scene where Dany gets her dragons. We start the book with ice and end in fire.

Yes, that is a good symmetry, and this sometimes confuses me. If you talk about the contrast between Fire and Ice, Dany and Bran and not Jon make the perfect parallel. So I'm a little reluctant to follow up more on Jon x Dany, and I can't for the love of God imagine Dany x Bran.

This is a keen observation and I honestly did not pick up on it. The cracking of the moon, like an egg, in the womb of the world, birthing the dragons, it’s all there clear as rain (now ‘_-)-*

GRRM once again has provided us with a subtle clue about the return of the dragons. Many people overlook (I did my first time) Doreah’s little story to Dany about where dragons come from. It is important though as we will later see, he has spread the clues throughout we just have to know where to look.

Arya – I like how you broke down the scene. I've noticed a subtle foreshadowing of Dany and Jon throughout her chapters.

It’s definitely sexually descriptive so much so that Drogo himself is aroused by it. Sadly, he only lasted three trusts (T_T). Could the three turst be also indicative of three husbands, who knows but GRRM sure loves Dany and the number 3.

You know, I'm not entirely sure of the "three quick strokes and it was done" part. I would like to believe there is some subtle foreshadowing at work here, otherwise in my opinion it is not very good writing.

[MoIaF]

Yes, that is a good symmetry, and this sometimes confuses me. If you talk about the contrast between Fire and Ice, Dany and Bran and not Jon make the perfect parallel. So I'm a little reluctant to follow up more on Jon x Dany, and I can't for the love of God imagine Dany x Bran.

This symmetry is more about the overarching theme of the story than it is about individual relationships. The relations between Bran (ice) and Dany (fire) is why Jon is important. He is supposed to be the bridge between the two. He already has a relationship with Bran as they are brother's (I know they are technically cousins but they are really brothers because that's how they were raised) however, he has no relationship with Dany, he doesn't know she even exist.

Jon finding out she is his aunt would not automatically create a bond between them; it might even antagonize him to know who he really is. However, if there was a romantic connection between Jon and Dany then he [Jon] would have an emotional pull towards her a bond. He would then have an investment in both his relationship with Bran and his relationship with Dany and would try much harder to bridge the gap between the two.

For me the middle ground can only be achieved if you have an investment of both sides. I suppose having no investment at all can have a similar effect, but to me when you dont care you dont try as hard.

Now this is all crazy speculation on my part, it might not even be this way at all but it's one of the different scenarios I could see happening.

So, anyhow, back to Dany V AGOT:

I thought of something in regards to Viserys death. He was known as a beggar and he died as a beggar both in lack of wealth and that he begged for his life in the end. A bit sad I have to say.

This is GoldenFleece2 aka RockofFergus aka GoldenFleece. Name changes all around lol. Mods thought it would be easier.

I've always been confused by Robert's apparent apathy towards the Targaryen siblings until the marriage. And we don't actually know if Robert actually tried to have them killed, there is no mention of it. We only know this part of the story through Ned after all.

You know it is weird. He was bloodthursty after the wat and wante to kill them as children was talked out of it by Jon Aryn and never thought about it again until the marriage.

If they had been a risk to him he would have tried harder to have them killed.

[DragonDreamer]

Yes, the intelligence gathering is flawed. This, in my opinion, is part of a general downward spiral of things. I've developed a series of threads with the overall title of "Systemic Problems." The idea is that the entire society and polity of the 7K is in serious trouble. It's not just a matter of some bad leadership. There is institutional failure on a large scale. Some matters are relevant to this thread, and I'll go into them more deeply after we've progressed further into the story. For now, consider this:

The spymaster is a traitor. The man who is supposed to inform the crown about threats from its enemies is himself one of the crown's worst enemies. He has been an enemy from day one. He didn't go over to the other side part way through the game. He wasn't paid off. He swore a false oath. On the day he bent the knee, he was already working toward the downfall of the Baratheon dynasty.

Couldn’t agree more, especially the bolded section Varys worked for the Targs and even if he changed sides I still wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him. The worst part is that he wasn’t even loyal to the Targs themselves. There are a lot of loose ends here.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

One more thing - Dany comes out of the womb of the world which is beneath the Mother of the Mountains. This kind of makes her the child of the Mother - the foremost Dothraki - more evidence pointing to her being TStMTW and clever wordplay by Martin. :D

I agree!!!

Clever wordplay.

Another thing that has been on my mind in terms of the womb of the world, is that the Dothraki say that it has no bottom.

I wonder if that meaning is literal or metaphoric, cause I am sure many women have gone in to see that it has a bottom yet they still say it.

[Parwan]

... And I have been re-reading and I cannot find one passage in Dany's POV's where she thinks to herself that she or her family is better than it is. She never thinks 'I am fireproof' or 'I can drink wildfire'.

If anything she has her little mantra that helps her through tough times "i am the blood of the dragon' . But in what way is she lying to or deceiving herself. She is the blood of the dragon...

Even at the end of Dany V, I don't think the young woman has said the word "dragon" out loud. She certainly hasn't publicly informed anyone that she is the blood of the dragon. She thinks, she dreams, she whispers. A lot of the “blood of the dragon” stuff with her to this point is, as you indicate, a matter of talking to herself, trying to keep her courage up. Then, when she asserts herself with her brother, she does so as khaleesi. In part, this is in regard to her own power: "Leave me now, before I summon my khas to drag you out." In part, however, she depends on the power of her husband: "And pray that Khal Drogo does not hear of this..." After Viserys leaves her tent, she talks to the baby developing in her womb. She calls him "the true dragon."

For a woman who would be queen, things will have to change. There are times when a leader has to let people know who is the boss. This is definitely true for Daenerys Targaryen. It has been said that she is the only female in the story who seizes power. Other women get it as an inheritance, or they become regents when there are no adult males available to take control of things. Take note of the number of times she is called “child” to her face. I do not believe anyone would do that to Cersei Lannister. As a matter of fact, the only similar situation I can think of is with Catelyn Stark and Brynden Tully . He calls her “child.” She corrects him. Later, he calls her “child” again. With Dany, Ser Jorah calls her a child a few times after she has made it clear that she is not one. Later, some characters will call her a “woman,” using the term as essentially a synonym for “child.”

No leader can allow this situation to continue. I believe that too much is sometimes made in these forums about characters who think they are entitled. My response is--Of course they think this. They're aristocrats, damn it. They have titles. It is natural for Daenerys to claim the blood of the dragon. In truth, I think it is her best method for publicly asserting her authority.

[MoIaF]

Even at the end of Dany V, I don't think the young woman has said the word "dragon" out loud. She certainly hasn't publicly informed anyone that she is the blood of the dragon. She thinks, she dreams, she whispers. A lot of the “blood of the dragon” stuff with her to this point is, as you indicate, a matter of talking to herself, trying to keep her courage up. Then, when she asserts herself with her brother, she does so as khaleesi. In part, this is in regard to her own power: "Leave me now, before I summon my khas to drag you out." In part, however, she depends on the power of her husband: "And pray that Khal Drogo does not hear of this..." After Viserys leaves her tent, she talks to the baby developing in her womb. She calls him "the true dragon."

For a woman who would be queen, things will have to change. There are times when a leader has to let people know who is the boss. This is definitely true for Daenerys Targaryen. It has been said that she is the only female in the story who seizes power. Other women get it as an inheritance, or they become regents when there are no adult males available to take control of things. Take note of the number of times she is called “child” to her face. I do not believe anyone would do that to Cersei Lannister. As a matter of fact, the only similar situation I can think of is with Catelyn Stark and Brynden Tully . He calls her “child.” She corrects him. Later, he calls her “child” again. With Dany, Ser Jorah calls her a child a few times after she has made it clear that she is not one. Later, some characters will call her a “woman,” using the term as essentially a synonym for “child.”

No leader can allow this situation to continue. I believe that too much is sometimes made in these forums about characters who think they are entitled. My response is--Of course they think this. They're aristocrats, damn it. They have titles. It is natural for Daenerys to claim the blood of the dragon. In truth, I think it is her best method for publicly asserting her authority.

This is so very true, especially the bolded part. Some people forget the fact that Dany lives in a male dominated world. Dany has to work twice as hard to assert herself, because not only is she a woman she is also very young woman. It easy for some to want to talk down to her and you’ve mentioned example, if she is to be a leader, you are right, she really can’t tolerate that.

Perhaps when her accomplishments are know then she won’t have to say anything at all.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Even at the end of Dany V, I don't think the young woman has said the word "dragon" out loud. She certainly hasn't publicly informed anyone that she is the blood of the dragon. She thinks, she dreams, she whispers. A lot of the “blood of the dragon” stuff with her to this point is, as you indicate, a matter of talking to herself, trying to keep her courage up. Then, when she asserts herself with her brother, she does so as khaleesi. In part, this is in regard to her own power: "Leave me now, before I summon my khas to drag you out." In part, however, she depends on the power of her husband: "And pray that Khal Drogo does not hear of this..." After Viserys leaves her tent, she talks to the baby developing in her womb. She calls him "the true dragon."

For a woman who would be queen, things will have to change. There are times when a leader has to let people know who is the boss. This is definitely true for Daenerys Targaryen. It has been said that she is the only female in the story who seizes power. Other women get it as an inheritance, or they become regents when there are no adult males available to take control of things. Take note of the number of times she is called “child” to her face. I do not believe anyone would do that to Cersei Lannister. As a matter of fact, the only similar situation I can think of is with Catelyn Stark and Brynden Tully . He calls her “child.” She corrects him. Later, he calls her “child” again. With Dany, Ser Jorah calls her a child a few times after she has made it clear that she is not one. Later, some characters will call her a “woman,” using the term as essentially a synonym for “child.”

No leader can allow this situation to continue. I believe that too much is sometimes made in these forums about characters who think they are entitled. My response is--Of course they think this. They're aristocrats, damn it. They have titles. It is natural for Daenerys to claim the blood of the dragon. In truth, I think it is her best method for publicly asserting her authority.

Well said :cheers: i totally agree. If she wasn't self assured, no one else would be sure of her either.