Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[MoIaF]

Some more points.

1. Khal Ogo first, and then the son, Fogo, who became khal when Ogo fell.

   This clears up the fact, that despite the Dothraki following 'strength', bloodlines are important to them. Another nod perhaps to the conjecture that Drogo was indeed interested in Dany's blood.

2. I always like to draw up similarities between the fire and ice aspects of things. Here look what words GRRM uses to describe a Maegi, which we know MMD is, and so is Melisandre.

   A maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.

   Contrast this with:

   Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

   I don't know how convincing this is, but there it is. Poor poor Stannis, the firey Night's King..

3. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs

   Moon is once again being associated to childbirth - contrast this with Doreah's theory, you can tell Dany is indeed the moon, that kisses the pyre to have the dragons burst forth.

4. "I am no man," she whispered, "so you may lean on me." - As you say Lady Eowyn. :rolleyes:

All excellent points. :D

[Arya kiddin']

All excellent points. :D

Haha, my thanks. TBH, it was not..... worthy of Martin to use the LOTR reference so crudely. I'm no man...... indeed you're not. :lol:

[SeanF]

I'm with you (I don't think that's where MMD's from, she is obviously a well traveled woman, what she there on a temporary basis, who knows. I will say that she knew exactly what she was doing when she so eagerly offered to help Khal Drogo, she really had no intention of helping. I don't blame her for this, she was in her right to seek revenge for what had happened to her. My problem with MMD is her taking vengeance on Rhaego, there was no need for that especially if she had already mess Dorogo up.

Save that Rhaego is to be The Stallion That Mounts the World (as far as everyone knows at the time, and as far as we can see from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying). MMD has reason to believe that what took place at the village would be magnified 1000 fold, if Rhaego grew to manhood.

And that's assuming that Dany didn't trade Rhaego's life for Drogo's.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Great analysis Suzzana :thumbsup: .

This part of AGOT is a very important part of the story in terms of Dany's development. At this point of the story she is the first female character to be exposed to the ways of wars directly. And she is also exposed to it at a very young age. Shes sees at first hand what happens when men go to war, which involves raping, sacking cities etc. Another sign that she is being groomed to take part in war at some point in the story, also her advisory is a military commander. We also see more signs of these later on such as Barristan teaching her how to count armies etc.

This chapter also sheds more light on the Queen vs. Khaleesi symbol. An ordinary Queen in silk, or at least the Queens in the story such as Cersei and Margaery won't take a chance at trying to change things that are already common in culture such as men getting their rewards after war.However a Khaleesi is there as it happens and has a chance to change things.

This chapter also shows one of Dany's admirable traits. At this point in the story she had no dragons and her power is limited especially by being a female yet she still tried to make a difference, And I think even the kindest of characters would be afraid to make such a stand but Dany does and I believe this is one of her admirable traits compared to other characters.

This chapter also showed me how similar Dany is with Queen Alysanne. Queen Alysanne is mostly remembered for abolishing lord's First Night. They are both similar in terms of changing social justices that are unfair in their eyes.

I also agree with Suzanna's point that, as readers we are deceived into thinking MMD is as good as Dany thinks she is but when switch into the eyes of a Dothraki we think to ourselves, "why would people that don't like us, and people we just sacked their city try and help us?"

On the flip side MMD is Dany's first "teacher" in the school of magic and plays a large role in how she got her dragons so lets see how that unfolds. I also suspect as Marwyn is mentioned he will play a role similar to MMD when Dany meets him in terms of the "school of magic" at least.

Save that Rhaego is to be The Stallion That Mounts the World (as far as everyone knows at the time, and as far as we can see from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying). MMD has reason to believe that what took place at the village would be magnified 1000 fold, if Rhaego grew to manhood.

And that's assuming that Dany didn't trade Rhaego's life for Drogo's.

That's what I think too. I think she was on her own personal mission to kill Rhaego. It also funny that she says knows the birthing song, and the moment she starts singing in the tent is when Dany's water broke. Maybe MMD forced the pregnancy?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Haha, my thanks. TBH, it was not..... worthy of Martin to use the LOTR reference so crudely. I'm no man...... indeed you're not. :lol:

I just realized he made a reference from LOTR :lol:

[MoIaF]

I just realized he made a reference from LOTR :lol:

Doesn't Dany have another, but we are not men lines. Or was that only on the tv show?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Doesn't Dany have another, but we are not men lines. Or was that only on the tv show?

Yea I think it was the TV show.

Valar Morghulis "All men must die, but we are not men"

It was still an awesome quote though :P

[Parwan]

Many thanks for this analysis and summary, Suzanna Stormborn. My comments are:-

...

2. and 4. I don't think so. We'll learn in ADWD that the Golden Company were expecting Viserys to turn up with a Khalasar.

...

As an aside, I would say there was a great deal of justification for Mirri's revenge. If we had her point of view, we'd likely see her as a tragic heroine.

Very good analysis Suzanna, good job

...

As Sean notes, Golden company was waiting for a Khalasar to turn up with Viserys. I don't think we are in any capacity to speculate on Varys and Illyrio's motives as of now with too little to go on, who knows if GC were also being played or not.

...

I agree that, at this point, we can't come up with a full analysis of the plans that Illyrio and Varys have made. Things are complicated. It is far from certain that the two men agree on everything. They may not wind up on the same side. I don't agree with Suzanna's claim that "Clearly the idea of taking the khalasar across the Narrow Sea to fight for Westeros is a fool’s errand, and no one really thought it could be done, Viserys was a moron to think it would work and Illyrio most definitely never thought it would actually happen. Selling Dany to Drogo with dreams of grandeur was all a big play to get her and Viserys killed, " The cheesemonger spent too much time and energy in helping Viserys and Dany for this effort to be just some sort of fake or feint. When he and Varys were planning things, they wouldn't have known that Viserys would insist on riding with the khalasar. Maester of Ice and Fire notes Illyrio's knowledge of Visery's inadequacies. I don't think that this knowledge proves that the Pentosi was sure no Dothraki would cross to Westeros. He didn't have to respect the "true king" to believe the crossing would happen. He just had to believe that Drogo's word was good.

Also, Illyrio is taking a chance; he is putting himself out there. Any fool can see that he has made himself a major enemy of the Baratheon dynasty. If someone more competent than King Good Time Charlie starts making important decisions, this person might well decide that it is past time to get rid of the trouble-making Pentosi cheese merchant. The trip to KL would have increased Illyrio's risk. Varys is not perfect. His security procedures could not possibly be 100% certain to prevent anyone from detecting the presence of an enemy of the throne in the capital city. Illyrio is taking chances. He must think they are worth taking--that the Dothraki-Targaryen alliance can work.

We will probably get more info on the exact motivations and goals of Varys and Illyrio. The same can't be said for MMD. What source do we have concerning her religion, her history, her ethnicity, her goals? The source is MMD, and she's dead now. There's enough uncertainty and conflict (even contradiction) in her statements and behavior for multiple interpretations of her desires and actions. Readers will continue to disagree on these matters.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree that, at this point, we can't come up with a full analysis of the plans that Illyrio and Varys have made. Things are complicated. It is far from certain that the two men agree on everything. They may not wind up on the same side. I don't agree with Suzanna's claim that "Clearly the idea of taking the khalasar across the Narrow Sea to fight for Westeros is a fool’s errand, and no one really thought it could be done, Viserys was a moron to think it would work and Illyrio most definitely never thought it would actually happen. Selling Dany to Drogo with dreams of grandeur was all a big play to get her and Viserys killed, " The cheesemonger spent too much time and energy in helping Viserys and Dany for this effort to be just some sort of fake or feint. When he and Varys were planning things, they wouldn't have known that Viserys would insist on riding with the khalasar. Maester of Ice and Fire notes Illyrio's knowledge of Visery's inadequacies. I don't think that this knowledge proves that the Pentosi was sure no Dothraki would cross to Westeros. He didn't have to respect the "true king" to believe the crossing would happen. He just had to believe that Drogo's word was good.

Also, Illyrio is taking a chance; he is putting himself out there. Any fool can see that he has made himself a major enemy of the Baratheon dynasty. If someone more competent than King Good Time Charlie starts making important decisions, this person might well decide that it is past time to get rid of the trouble-making Pentosi cheese merchant. The trip to KL would have increased Illyrio's risk. Varys is not perfect. His security procedures could not possibly be 100% certain to prevent anyone from detecting the presence of an enemy of the throne in the capital city. Illyrio is taking chances. He must think they are worth taking--that the Dothraki-Targaryen alliance can work.

We will probably get more info on the exact motivations and goals of Varys and Illyrio. The same can't be said for MMD. What source do we have concerning her religion, her history, her ethnicity, her goals? The source is MMD, and she's dead now. There's enough uncertainty and conflict (even contradiction) in her statements and behavior for multiple interpretations of her desires and actions. Readers will continue to disagree on these matters.

I hear you, but Illyrio's actions just dont make sense. Why send Dany and Viserys out to the Dothraki sea to join with Drogo and eventually take the IT, and at the same time raise fAegon to also take the throne. Why send the last scion Targ out with the Dothraki around the same time that the Blackfyre heir (possibly Illyrio's own son) comes of age to take the throne? It makes no sense for IIyrio to send 2 draonspawns out to take the throne at the same time. I really do believe the whole point was to start this blackfyre rebellion, that fAegon was the real goal for Varys and Illyrio. Dany and Viserys were just something they needed to get rid of.

Viserys approached the GC when him and Dany were on the run and was denied by them. But then, shortly after, they sign up with fAegon and agree to do the exact same job that Viserys had requested of them previously?? IMO fAegon is the one Varys and Illyrio really care about. And I think Illyrio's letter to Jorah in this chapter shows that he was trying to get Dany as far from Westeros as possible. it was Jorah's idea for her to buy ships in Slaver's Bay......thoughts?

[Parwan]

I hear you, but Illyrio's actions just dont make sense. Why send Dany and Viserys out to the Dothraki sea to join with Drogo and eventually take the IT, and at the same time raise fAegon to also take the throne. Why send the last scion Targ out with the Dothraki around the same time that the Blackfyre heir (possibly Illyrio's own son) comes of age to take the throne? It makes no sense for IIyrio to send 2 draonspawns out to take the throne at the same time. I really do believe the whole point was to start this blackfyre rebellion, that fAegon was the real goal for Varys and Illyrio. Dany and Viserys were just something they needed to get rid of.

Viserys approached the GC when him and Dany were on the run and was denied by them. But then, shortly after, they sign up with fAegon and agree to do the exact same job that Viserys had requested of them previously?? IMO fAegon is the one Varys and Illyrio really care about. And I think Illyrio's letter to Jorah in this chapter shows that he was trying to get Dany as far from Westeros as possible. it was Jorah's idea for her to buy ships in Slaver's Bay......thoughts?

Two quick thoughts: 1. It is difficult to make sense of the whole thing. Overall, I'd say that I question Varys's actions more than Illyrio's. One possibility is that GRRM didn't (and perhaps still doesn't) have everything worked out. 2. Illyrio is a merchant. He wants to make a profit. It seems he has already done this in the case of the Drogo-Daenerys wedding. The man "had collected a fortune in horses and slaves..." That, at least, was Dany's impression, and I think she'd probably know about the matter. Most likely, the cheesemonger would like to do even better, perhaps become the master of coin in King's Landing. It wouldn't matter to him exactly how this happened. He doesn't expound any ideology or proclaim fealty to any dynasty. Viserys, Daenerys, Aegon--all of this could be just a matter of hedging his bets.

[Fire Eater]

1.--Jorah has absolutely no problem with what is going on here. He sheds no tears for these people being slaughtered, granted he is a knight, used to battle and fighting and has a harder heart than Dany, but he still comes from Westeros. He says in an earlier chapter that Ned Stark was in the wrong for exiling him, I thnk it’s pretty clear that Ned did the right thing. We can see that not only is Jorah nonplussed by all this, but he immediately starts telling Dany and Drogo where they should take their slaves and where they can get the best price. Not only Jorah but Illyrio as well, he writes to Jorah that there has been plague and how much they can get for their younger male and female slaves in Slaver’s Bay. So obviously Dany is all alone in Essos thinking that something about this is wrong. What is wrong with all these people?

For the Dothraki, they seem themselves as a superior race and the Lhazareen as inferior. It starts with "they're different from me," it then goes to "I'm inherently superior to them, and they're inherently inferior to me." It then goes to "they are subhuman," and ends in "their lives don't matter."

As for Illyrio, if he has no qualms against having the tongues of children torn out, then I doubt he will have any qualms against children being sold into slavery to be bedslaves, pillow boys and forced laborers.

Dany shows some courage (including moral) to have women and girls taken from Drogo's men.

[Annara Snow]

This was a chapter where Dany started to become a heroine in the true sense of the word; not just sympathetic and strong and relatable, but a person who performs acts of compassion and courage and goes out of her way to save others. And she did not grow up having these values instilled in her by anyone, she comes by them herself.

Many thanks for this analysis and summary, Suzanna Stormborn. My comments are:-

1. Ser Jorah is pragmatic and amoral. He's sold poachers into slavery, witnessed (and maybe participated in) the Sack of King's Landing, and doubtless had no qualms about burning villages and executing their inhabitants during Robert's Rebellion. This is normal in war. The suffering in the Riverlands at the hands of Ser Kevan Lannister and his lieutenants is every bit as bad. Even allowing for that, though, his suggestion that they sell children into brothels is an evil one.

The truth, though, is that this is the price of the Iron Throne. Anyone who wants to win it has to be hard-hearted.

Not necessarily. There's no evidence that selling children into sex slavery will be necessary to take the IT; it's not like it's been proven that there is no other way, and Jorah is certainly not conflicted.

I thought this was particularly ironic:

"Make them stop", said Dany.

"Khaleesi?" The knight seemed perplexed.

Another reminder that knights are not really noble heroes and "defenders of women and children", but ruthless killers. In Westeros, Jorah was no doubt used to rape, pillage and murder of smallfolk and other innocents as a part of war, and he is perplexed at the idea of someone trying to put a stop to it. He also thinks that anyone who is too moral and honorable will lose and die, as we see in ASOS with his comment about Rhaegar.

And Ned was definitely right to exile him. Selling adult men into slavery may not seem as abhorent as seling children into sex slavery, but it's still an awful crime, and it's even worse to hear Jorah talk with contempt about these men as "lice-ridden poachers", as if being poor made them subhuman.

5. and 7. A further indication that Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna.

Yes, and furthermore, the fact that it's said by Jorah, who was not close to Rhaegar and probably barely even know him, and who fought on the side of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon, indicates that it was common knowledge that Rhaegar was a highly moral person who didn't allow rape. Ser Barristan also holds Rhaegar in high regard, as does everyone else. It makes me wonder if there's anyone who was alive and grown up during the time of RR who really believed in the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" story, apart from Robert himself. It's even questionable if Lord Rickard or Brandon believed it; Brandon may have wanted to kill Rhaegar because he "dishonored" his sister, but I think there is no evidence that he thought Rhaegar kidnapped her or that anything happened againt her will; that may not have made a difference for him.

6. I imagine that the villagers have tried to shut their minds to the horror that they've experienced. Even when the rapes are halted, their position still remains dire, however,

8, 9, 10. MMD's motives are open to dispute. FWIW, I think that her original offer to help was sincere. For a slave, helping to cure the Khal should result in better treatment. As the days pass, she sees her advice ignored, is kicked and beaten by the Dothraki, learns that Dany is due to give birth to the Stalliion that Mounts the World, feels increasing anger towards both Drogo and Dany for what was done to her village, and resolves to wreak revenge on the pair of them.

As an aside, I would say there was a great deal of justification for Mirri's revenge. If we had her point of view, we'd likely see her as a tragic heroine.

I'm not sure when MMD decided to take revenge/kill Rhaego, but I agree with the second paragraph.

I always thought this storyline was brilliantly written, with so much moral ambiguity. MMD is an antagonist, but I never thought of her as a villain, and I find it easy to see things from her POV, at the same time as we see them from Dany's. On one hand, she kills an innocent unborn child - but on the other hand, she believes in the prophecy of Rhaego as the Stallion Who Mounts the World, so from her POV, it's similar to the quandry "What would you do if you could go back in time and kil Hitler?" She thinks she is stopping a great evil that is to come. It's possible that she already knew about the prophecy and that she realized quickly that it was Dany who was meant to give birth to TSWMTW, so if that was the case, it gives her a reason to immediately ingratiate herself in Dany's inner circle by offering help to Drogo. She didn't think she had anything left to lose and didn't want to live, so she didn't care that they would kill her afterwards.

As for the contempt she shows later when Dany reminds her she saved her; while Dany is, of course, doing everything she can to make things better for these women, look at it from their POV, it's not really that better: first off, Dany is the khal's wife and the khaleesi of the Dothraki khalasar, so MMD would see her as an accomplice/one of the people who did all these crimes to her town; it's not surprising that the other women did not trust her at first and wondered why she was doing it and what horrible fate she had in store for them. Furthermore, are things really that better for them? They are still slaves, and now they are forced to live among those who had raped them, burned down their town, and killed everyone they loved. The Dothraki like Irri and Jicqui may have been taught that this is the way things are and they should accept it, but I don't think the Lhazareen think along those lines - and MMD certainly does not. Dany also tries to stop the brutal gang rapes by suggesting that the Dothraki who want to 'mount' the women should treat them gently and take them as wives. What she doesn't understand is that this is still rape, and they are still slaves and have no choice in the matter, and they will have to live with these men and be raped every day by their husbands. Which is not that different from what happens in Westeros not so rarely, but with the purposes of stealing lands and claims rather than women's bodies, which are more of a bonus. It makes me think of Jeyne Poole, and Sansa having to live among the Lannisters and being forced to marry a Lannister, and Alys Karstark's almost-marriage to her uncle.

And while some of the Lhazareen women may have been satisfied that their condition was somewhat improved and that they may at least survive, it doesn't surprise me that there were some - or at least one - who wasn't grateful to a woman who is a part of the Dothraki khalasar and who came and saved (?) them by making them her personal slaves, who have to travel with the Dothraki, and may have to marry their rapists or potential rapists. Like I said, it's the best that Dany could do under the circumstances, but it was not good enough. It will be very different when she starts freeing slaves in ASOS; she was not aligned with the people who were enslaving them and abusing them, but was opposed to them, and she did in fact give freedom and a choice to the former slaves - so of course she was genuinely adored by the majority of the slaves and former slaves in Essos.

On another note, I had forgotten that Maester Marwyn was mentioned in AGOT. That's why it's necessary to re-read these books, you can't catch everything the first time. He is interesting as a link between magic and Westerosi science. Maybe we will even learn a bit more about MMD's background from him.

Yea I think it was the TV show.

Valar Morghulis "All men must die, but we are not men"

It was still an awesome quote though :P

It's one of the worst lines on the show, IMO. It makes me cringe because it makes no sense at all. Unless Dany has found the secret of immortality :p I'm pretty sure all women must die, too. If they wanted a pun on "valar", they should have written it as: "All men must serve. But we are not men."

[SeanF]

This was a chapter where Dany started to become a heroine in the true sense of the word; not just sympathetic and strong and relatable, but a person who performs acts of compassion and courage and goes out of her way to save others. And she did not grow up having these values instilled in her by anyone, she comes by them herself.

Not necessarily. There's no evidence that selling children into sex slavery will be necessary to take the IT; it's not like it's been proven that there is no other way, and Jorah is certainly not conflicted.

I thought this was particularly ironic:

"Make them stop", said Dany.

"Khaleesi?" The knight seemed perplexed.

Another reminder that knights are not really noble heroes and "defenders of women and children", but ruthless killers. In Westeros, Jorah was no doubt used to rape, pillage and murder of smallfolk and other innocents as a part of war, and he is perplexed at the idea of someone trying to put a stop to it. He also thinks that anyone who is too moral and honorable will lose and die, as we see in ASOS with his comment about Rhaegar.

And Ned was definitely right to exile him. Selling adult men into slavery may not seem as abhorent as seling children into sex slavery, but it's still an awful crime, and it's even worse to hear Jorah talk with contempt about these men as "lice-ridden poachers", as if being poor made them subhuman.

I don't necessarily mean that selling children into sexual slavery is necessary to win the Iron Throne, but a willingness to inflict atrocities on enemies will be. Suppose a town is offered the chance to surrender and refuses, then thoroughly sacking it is a good way of persuading other towns to come to terms. Henry V, for example, is portrayed as a hero in Shakespeare's play, yet induces the leaders of Harfleur to surrender by threatening them with the rape of their wives and daughters if he has to take the town by storm. That's the price of the Iron Throne, even if one avoids wanton sadism.

Later on, we'll see that Meereen will be "savagely sacked" when it refuses to come to terms.

[Annara Snow]

I don't necessarily mean that selling children into sexual slavery is necessary to win the Iron Throne, but a willingness to inflict atrocities on enemies will be. Suppose a town is offered the chance to surrender and refuses, then thoroughly sacking it is a good way of persuading other towns to come to terms. Henry V, for example, is portrayed as a hero in Shakespeare's play, yet induces the leaders of Harfleur to surrender by threatening them with the rape of their wives and daughters if he has to take the town by storm. That's the price of the Iron Throne, even if one avoids wanton sadism.

Later on, we'll see that Meereen will be "savagely sacked" when it refuses to come to terms.

There are some critics who have questioned that and made a very good case for "Henry V" being a very slyly subversive play beneath the "heroic" surface that was, of course, necessary for it to be played at all. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the critic who developed this interpretation - I read it at the university, his book was one of the books on the suggested reading list for Shakesperean criticism. I've never been able to see the play as a jingoistic one celebrating Henry V since I read it, even though the best known film versions all subscribe to the popular interpretation and smooth over most of the subversive parts.

ETA: This excerpts is not from that essay, but it makes some of the same arguments. http://public.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/shakespeare/sample11.html

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It's one of the worst lines on the show, IMO. It makes me cringe because it makes no sense at all. Unless Dany has found the secret of immortality :P I'm pretty sure all women must die, too. If they wanted a pun on "valar", they should have written it as: "All men must serve. But we are not men."

:lmao:

I kind of agree though looking at it from your angle :p

[Parwan]

...

8, 9, 10. MMD's motives are open to dispute. FWIW, I think that her original offer to help was sincere. For a slave, helping to cure the Khal should result in better treatment. As the days pass, she sees her advice ignored, is kicked and beaten by the Dothraki, learns that Dany is due to give birth to the Stalliion that Mounts the World, feels increasing anger towards both Drogo and Dany for what was done to her village, and resolves to wreak revenge on the pair of them.

As an aside, I would say there was a great deal of justification for Mirri's revenge. If we had her point of view, we'd likely see her as a tragic heroine.

... As for MMD, I'm completely with you, and disagree with Sean - I maintain that she had sworn revenge right from the start, and all that she does afterwards was part of her scheme

...

I'm not sure about MMD's original motives. One thing seems clear to me though. She knew what she was getting into:

"Remember Maegi, as the khal fares, so shall you."

"As you say, rider."

She agreed without any qualification or possible exemption. She didn't say anything like, "Okay, that's a deal as long as the khal follows my instructions." It's very clear what the Dothraki are and what they do to their enemies. When the khal fell from his horse, she could not have expected to survive, or even to die a relatively easy death. Her final statement in Daenerys VII appears rather cryptic to me: "The Great Shepherd guards the flock." I'd say that the Great Shepherd has done a pretty damn poor job of guarding up to this point. One might speculate that she is thinking about the possibility that she will be able to prevent the birth of the Stallion. That's possible, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me. At any rate, Mirri clearly went into this business with her eyes open.

... What Dany does best is empathize, she can put herself in someone else's shoes, she knows how to relate. In this is why at times she has such a volatile temper, it's because she feels strongly, especially about the abuse of people who can't help themselves.

...

Yes, empathy is an important part of Dany's character. Her actions with regard to the Lhazareen were very much a matter of empathy. A girl about her age is being raped. When Dany hears the "heartrending sound, a long sobbing wail," I'd say she almost has to act. She has been in the girl's position; that wail went right through her.

Also, there is a reasonable similarity between Dany's action and Sansa's intervention to save Ser Dontos. In neither case, was the young woman involved in an academic discussion or a policy debate. She needed to act quickly to prevent or bring to an end a terrible thing. After that, she had to do some quick thinking to come up with an alternative. Dany didn't sit in a council chamber and say, "Well, chattel slavery is terrible, but forcing the women of a conquered people into marriage is okay."

[SeanF]

There are some critics who have questioned that and made a very good case for "Henry V" being a very slyly subversive play beneath the "heroic" surface that was, of course, necessary for it to be played at all. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the critic who developed this interpretation - I read it at the university, his book was one of the books on the suggested reading list for Shakesperean criticism. I've never been able to see the play as a jingoistic one celebrating Henry V since I read it, even though the best known film versions all subscribe to the popular interpretation and smooth over most of the subversive parts.

ETA: This excerpts is not from that essay, but it makes some of the same arguments. http://public.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/shakespeare/sample11.html

Thanks for that very interesting link. I'm not convinced, though, that an English 16th century audience would have considered sacking a French town that resisted, or the execution of prisoners at Agincourt, to be war

crimes at all (though Shakespeare may have done).

Indeed, many modern historians still defend the executions at Agincourt.

[Arya kiddin']

I'm not sure about MMD's original motives. One thing seems clear to me though. She knew what she was getting into:

"Remember Maegi, as the khal fares, so shall you."

"As you say, rider."

She agreed without any qualification or possible exemption. She didn't say anything like, "Okay, that's a deal as long as the khal follows my instructions." It's very clear what the Dothraki are and what they do to their enemies. When the khal fell from his horse, she could not have expected to survive, or even to die a relatively easy death. Her final statement in Daenerys VII appears rather cryptic to me: "The Great Shepherd guards the flock." I'd say that the Great Shepherd has done a pretty damn poor job of guarding up to this point. One might speculate that she is thinking about the possibility that she will be able to prevent the birth of the Stallion. That's possible, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me. At any rate, Mirri clearly went into this business with her eyes open.

Yes, empathy is an important part of Dany's character. Her actions with regard to the Lhazareen were very much a matter of empathy. A girl about her age is being raped. When Dany hears the "heartrending sound, a long sobbing wail," I'd say she almost has to act. She has been in the girl's position; that wail went right through her.

Also, there is a reasonable similarity between Dany's action and Sansa's intervention to save Ser Dontos. In neither case, was the young woman involved in an academic discussion or a policy debate. She needed to act quickly to prevent or bring to an end a terrible thing. After that, she had to do some quick thinking to come up with an alternative. Dany didn't sit in a council chamber and say, "Well, chattel slavery is terrible, but forcing the women of a conquered people into marriage is okay."

"The Great Sheperd guards the flock" - that I suppose is the key here and sadly up for various interpretations. While reading it I thought the reverse of what you're saying here - that Oh Rider, the great shepherd still guards us, we're not as powerless as you take us to be. I'm not really convinced on TStmTW point because I don't believe she knew about the prophecy when the town was sacked, she must've come to know about it during her time in the Khalasar. And yet she is eager to help the Khal right away, and we know it is that treatment that led the wound to fester. So I believe she acted with a plan right from the start.

I like the Sansa parallel here that you suggest. The only difference between the two girls being that Sansa doesn't have any actual power in KL, and manages to save Dontos only by her glib tongue quick thinking. Dany on the other hand saves the girls by exercising real power, even if that is being derived from her husband.

[Parwan]

I don't necessarily mean that selling children into sexual slavery is necessary to win the Iron Throne, but a willingness to inflict atrocities on enemies will be. Suppose a town is offered the chance to surrender and refuses, then thoroughly sacking it is a good way of persuading other towns to come to terms. Henry V, for example, is portrayed as a hero in Shakespeare's play, yet induces the leaders of Harfleur to surrender by threatening them with the rape of their wives and daughters if he has to take the town by storm. That's the price of the Iron Throne, even if one avoids wanton sadism.

Later on, we'll see that Meereen will be "savagely sacked" when it refuses to come to terms.

At some point, a decent person has to question what achieving a victory or winning a throne is supposed to mean. I don't think anyone (or at least anyone with any power) in Westeros is doing such questioning. One important difference between events in Westeros and those in Slaver's Bay--In the former case we have a civil war. That means everyone being killed should, in some sense, be considered "your people." Any individual, leader or follower, who claims to be 'for the realm" should worry about that. Another important factor--winter. Despite the Stark words, no one is doing adequate thinking about winter. It's all great for the high lords to "have fun" slaughtering peasants and burning crops. However, when it looks like large numbers of people are going to freeze or starve simply because of the weather, any decent person should conclude that a negotiated peace, even one that lets "traitors" go free or allows a partial breakup of the kingdom, might be the best result possible. If damn near everyone dies, what does it matter who winds up with his (or her) rear end on that ugly iron chair?

It's debatable how Dany stands in this matter. She isn't in Westeros, and she doesn't appear to have any knowledge about the onset of winter there. Some have claimed that Dany's ignorance of the seven kingdoms is a reason that she shouldn't be queen. On the other hand, she might, at this point in the story, be given a little slack because she doesn't know the current condition of the realm. She isn't one of the leaders killing people and animals, destroying supplies, and otherwise making a bad situation worse.

...

I like the Sansa parallel here that you suggest. The only difference between the two girls being that Sansa doesn't have any actual power in KL, and manages to save Dontos only by her glib tongue quick thinking. Dany on the other hand saves the girls by exercising real power, even if that is being derived from her husband.

Sansa needed help though. If Sandor Clegane hadn't supported her story about bad luck on your name day, then her glib tongue wouldn't have availed her anything.

[Arya kiddin']

Sansa needed help though. If Sandor Clegane hadn't supported her story about bad luck on your name day, then her glib tongue wouldn't have availed her anything.

Like Dany depending upon her husband? You just gave more fodder to all the SanSan shippers. :lol: