Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[bemused]

I do remember in Catelyn's first chapter that she mentions how Ned would always clean the blood from his sword after an execution around the Heart Tree.

Don't you think that seems more like a cleansing ritual ?.. and in Bran's vision, Ned is specifically cleaning his sword with an oily rag , not wiping it on the tree , ( or washing it in the pool as I've seen some suggest ). It might even be to demonstrate that he's keeping himself prepared , if there's anything to the suggestion that Starks form part of the defense system of the old gods.

I think that in a world where magic exists there may be multiple ways of achieving the same results . Different cultures may work or tap into magic in different ways. It's when religion comes into it and "gods" demand sacrifice , that things get ... messy. ;)

[Annara Snow]

What MMD actually was responsible for, and at which point she planned it, is vague and open to discussion. I don't see any evidence that Mirri did something to make Drogo's wound worse, as opposed to Drogo negating the healing effect because he didn't like how it hurt and stang (it's ironic that the Dothraki, who pride themselves on courage and endurance, can't endure a bit of stinging pain) and didn't trust a maegi, taking the pain to be the sign of something bad about the medicine). And is it really that unusual for a khal to die of an infected wound? The Dothraki don't seem to be experts in medicine.

On the other hand, I do think that she planned to kill Rhaego, since she later implies to Dany that she knew what would be the price of Khal's life*; and she clearly knew that the "life" he would get would be that of a vegetable. She basically screwed over Dany by deliberately withholding information, making her feel responsible for her child's life, which is worse than simply killing him.

* Even though this is contradicted by MMD telling Dany she shouldn't enter the tent. But if she didn't plan to sacrifice Rhaego, who did she plan to sacrifice?

Therefore I'm leaning towards the interpretation that she offered to heal Drogo in order to get closer to Dany and Drogo and get a chance for revenge (and she may have correctly guessed that a Dothraki probably wouldn't listen to her advice on healing anyway, so no harm, or rather, no healing done); or, if she already knew about the prophecy, to stop it from happening. Which one was her main objective, is not entirely clear. It's also not entirely clear if she had a plan from the beginning, or early on, or just used the opportunities as they presented themselves. The only two things she makes absolutely clear is that she deeply resents not just Drogo, for obvious reasons, but also Dany, for behaving like a savior to her, which MMD is contemptuous of, since she sees Dany as guilty by association for what happened to her and her town in the first place; and that she found it very important that the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy would be stopped. Killing Rhaego may be awful as he is just an innocent unborn child; but, since MMD believes in the prophecy, from her perspective, it is very similar to the idea - and moral quandry - of "going back in time to kill Hitler... as a child/prevent Hitler from being born".

Another interesting question: Jorah mentioned that her child may be murdered in the fight for power that would start in the khalasar. If MMD hadn't performed her blood magic ritual, would Rhaego have survived?

On another note, "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved" is a heavily romanticized version of the historical events, just as much as "Robert started the war over Lyanna". In truth, while Lyanna's "abduction" was what started the chain of events that lead to RR, Robert actually started the war because the Mad King had asked for his and Ned's deaths, which Jon Arryn refused (and actually, it would be more correct to say that it was Jon Arryn who started the rebellion, not Robert) and Rhaegar fought in the Trident because he had to, because the lives of his entire family and his own depended on it. Lyanna, being Ned's sister, was the least in danger, though the same can't be said of her child.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

When Dany is being carried by Jorah and trying to tell them all not to take her into the tent, she says something along the lines of: "why can't they see the shadows dancing"

I think had they been able to see the shadows they wouldn't have insisted that Jorah bring Dany into the tent.

Thats what I think also. It seems possible that she was part of the ritual through Rhaego, in the pyre Dany saw similar things and she was also part of that ritual, so I think its a case of only the person part of the ritual can see. Maybe Rhaego would have still died if Dany wasn't brought in the tent if MMD plotted to kill him at the start of the ritual.

indeed anyone have an explanation for how Beric came back w/o a sacrifice

I think cause of the Dragons. Beric says he doesn't even know how he did it, and it was after the birth of the dragons.

Don't you think that seems more like a cleansing ritual ?.. and in Bran's vision, Ned is specifically cleaning his sword with an oily rag , not wiping it on the tree , ( or washing it in the pool as I've seen some suggest ). It might even be to demonstrate that he's keeping himself prepared , if there's anything to the suggestion that Starks form part of the defense system of the old gods.

I think that in a world where magic exists there may be multiple ways of achieving the same results . Different cultures may work or tap into magic in different ways. It's when religion comes into it and "gods" demand sacrifice , that things get ... messy. ;)

There are theories I have seen, that say that the northerners form of executing people may have been a blood sacrifice back in the day but its purpose may have been lost over time.

What MMD actually was responsible for, and at which point she planned it, is vague and open to discussion. I don't see any evidence that Mirri did something to make Drogo's wound worse, as opposed to Drogo negating the healing effect because he didn't like how it hurt and stang (it's ironic that the Dothraki, who pride themselves on courage and endurance, can't endure a bit of stinging pain) and didn't trust a maegi, taking the pain to be the sign of something bad about the medicine). And is it really that unusual for a khal to die of an infected wound? The Dothraki don't seem to be experts in medicine.

On the other hand, I do think that she planned to kill Rhaego, since she later implies to Dany that she knew what would be the price of Khal's life*; and she clearly knew that the "life" he would get would be that of a vegetable. She basically screwed over Dany by deliberately withholding information, making her feel responsible for her child's life, which is worse than simply killing him.

* Even though this is contradicted by MMD telling Dany she shouldn't enter the tent. But if she didn't plan to sacrifice Rhaego, who did she plan to sacrifice?

Therefore I'm leaning towards the interpretation that she offered to heal Drogo in order to get closer to Dany and Drogo and get a chance for revenge (and she may have correctly guessed that a Dothraki probably wouldn't listen to her advice on healing anyway, so no harm, or rather, no healing done); or, if she already knew about the prophecy, to stop it from happening. Which one was her main objective, is not entirely clear. It's also not entirely clear if she had a plan from the beginning, or early on, or just used the opportunities as they presented themselves. The only two things she makes absolutely clear is that she deeply resents not just Drogo, for obvious reasons, but also Dany, for behaving like a savior to her, which MMD is contemptuous of, since she sees Dany as guilty by association for what happened to her and her town in the first place; and that she found it very important that the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy would be stopped. Killing Rhaego may be awful as he is just an innocent unborn child; but, since MMD believes in the prophecy, from her perspective, it is very similar to the idea - and moral quandry - of "going back in time to kill Hitler... as a child/prevent Hitler from being born".

I agree with you on this.

Thats where I also lean. Perhaps she was planning on getting into Dany's inner circle and strike at the best oppurtunity and she got the right oppurtunity when Dany allowed her to use magic.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I think cause of the Dragons. Beric says he doesn't even know how he did it, and it was after the birth of the dragons.

I think most time lines have Beric dying first, but who knows. Off topic but i wonder if Thoros tried the kiss with other people

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think most time lines have Beric dying first, but who knows. Off topic but i wonder if Thoros tried the kiss with other people

Hmm I usually date the beginning of the dragons power from Dany's first dragon dream (Dany II), or her second (Dany III) cause thats where she first felt it hot.

Interesting thought on the kiss I have never thought of that.

[MoIaF]

I think most time lines have Beric dying first, but who knows. Off topic but i wonder if Thoros tried the kiss with other people

Hmm I usually date the beginning of the dragons power from Dany's first dragon dream (Dany II), or her second (Dany III) cause thats where she first felt it hot.

Interesting thought on the kiss I have never thought of that.

Fire magic is probably not the same as blood magic and so the "death mist pay for light" might not apply. However, Beric gave a little more of himself ever time he was resurrected so some "life" was being taken from him each time.

[xspicer89x]

Ok, just want to point out:

1) I'm pretty sure other people saw the shadows inside the tent (well at least Jorah says he did in the next chapter):

"I saw maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows." (though Dany can hear the doubt in his voice about them being only shadows). I think Jorah brought her into the tent because he felt that he had no other choice; this is his queen, his Kaleesi, but most importantly his Dany and his love.

2) It is possible that the blood sacrifice ritual is something originating is Essosi culture in general, however it also may be related particularly to worshippers of Rhllor. Its true that fire magic is probably not the same as blood magic, but the idea that "only death can/may pay for life" is a line used only by MMD and Dany in GoT (Dany who heard it from MMD--MMD arguments of Rhllorism usually boil down to her "great healing magic in fire" line and her similarities to Mel like similar powder uses), used by Jaquen in CoK (who has fairly strong arguments for being a follower of the RedGod and his sacrifices), and used by Queen Selyse and Mel in SoS (both of whom are fervid worshippers of the lord of light and promote blood sacrifice). The line is not mentioned by anyone in FfC or DwD. It is interesting to note that Rhllorites may be the only ones who dangerously emphasize that only death may pay for life. I would say that the "fire magic" of Thoros that repeatedly resurrects Beric (and subsequently gets passed on from Beric to Lady Stoneheart) is certainly different kind of magic (though I do like the point mentioned about giving a little more of himself each time).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Ok, just want to point out:

1) I'm pretty sure other people saw the shadows inside the tent (well at least Jorah says he did in the next chapter):

"I saw maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows." (though Dany can hear the doubt in his voice about them being only shadows). I think Jorah brought her into the tent because he felt that he had no other choice; this is his queen, his Kaleesi, but most importantly his Dany and his love.

There's not much evidence of Jorah being 'in love' with Dany at this point. He is loyal to her and wants to protect her, but up until this day she has been married and extremely pregnant. I think he just respects who she is and her strength, and knows she is the last scion of this great house. Also he doesn't really have much else going on in his life besides protecting Dany. More than anything he does want to save the baby and help it to be born.

She would have been better off giving birth on a blanket out in the sand than in that tent. Jorah didn't understand what he was walking into.

[Parwan]

...

She would have been better off giving birth on a blanket out in the sand than in that tent. Jorah didn't understand what he was walking into.

That is a noteworthy point, and it doesn't just apply to Jorah. No one involved performs well. Indeed, their actions are strange, contradicting everything that all the Dothraki have said about Mirri and blood magic--

A maegi is a terrible person.

Blood magic is forbidden.

This must not be.

We should kill the witch.

Then the khaleesi goes into labor--

Take her to the maegi.

That doesn't make sense, whether they saw the shadows or not.

[xspicer89x]

There's not much evidence of Jorah being 'in love' with Dany at this point. He is loyal to her and wants to protect her, but up until this day she has been married and extremely pregnant. I think he just respects who she is and her strength, and knows she is the last scion of this great house. Also he doesn't really have much else going on in his life besides protecting Dany. More than anything he does want to save the baby and help it to be born.

She would have been better off giving birth on a blanket out in the sand than in that tent. Jorah didn't understand what he was walking into.

Ya i suppose you're right on that, he has'nt really let his 'love' affection show or be known yet, but being a reread we do have the foresight to know that this could have potentially played a part in his decision.

However, I don't agree with the idea that more than anything he wanted to save the baby; I would say that more than anything he wanted to save Dany. He had just finished killing to protect her, and now he's holding her in his arms and shes convulsing in pain. What is he to do? None of the handmaids know anything about delivering a child and the birthing women will not go near Dany or have fled, and I'm sure that women dying during labour was much more common relative to modern day so Jorah must have known this was a possibility.

When someone says "take her to the maegi", nobody questions it because Dany has so fervently put her hope and trust in MMD. It is a last resort worth trying in their eyes, since at least MMD knows birthing songs, and if their Khaleesi trusts her, its better to try than just let their Khaleesi potentially die. In hindsight its much easier to say "she would have been better off outside on a blanket giving birth", but nobody who knew anything about delivering a child was around to know that would be a safe possibility, and like I said I believe they feared more for Dany's life (convulsing and screaming in pain).

[xspicer89x]

That is a noteworthy point, and it doesn't just apply to Jorah. No one involved performs well. Indeed, their actions are strange, contradicting everything that all the Dothraki have said about Mirri and blood magic--

A maegi is a terrible person.

Blood magic is forbidden.

This must not be.

We should kill the witch.

Then the khaleesi goes into labor--

Take her to the maegi.

That doesn't make sense, whether they saw the shadows or not.

As I mentioned above, I wouldn't say that "no one performed well". Indeed, given the circumstances they performed satisfactorily to their capabilities. None of them seem to have any clue about how to deliver a child or what to do with a mother in labour, and there is no one around that does. IMO they performed well in the sense that at the right moment when it is needed someone remembers MMD, and another remembers that she knows birthing songs, and Jorah gets Dany to MMD. Given the circumstances and their knowledge, they did perform well towards Dany and her safety (and potentially the baby's safe birth).

Its easy in hindsight to say their actions contradict everything they believe in about MMD and bloodmagic, but in the heat of the moment it is not hard to imagine how their religious beliefs could be forgotten/replaced by more basic emotional instincts of safety and survival (i.e. they see not only their Khaleesi but their friend in pain and suffering and unsure as to wether or not she is alright, and MMD may potentially know how to help her, who cares if shes a bloodmage).

[Parwan]

As I mentioned above, I wouldn't say that "no one performed well". Indeed, given the circumstances they performed satisfactorily to their capabilities. None of them seem to have any clue about how to deliver a child or what to do with a mother in labour, and there is no one around that does. IMO they performed well in the sense that at the right moment when it is needed someone remembers MMD, and another remembers that she knows birthing songs, and Jorah gets Dany to MMD. Given the circumstances and their knowledge, they did perform well towards Dany and her safety (and potentially the baby's safe birth).

Its easy in hindsight to say their actions contradict everything they believe in about MMD and bloodmagic, but in the heat of the moment it is not hard to imagine how their religious beliefs could be forgotten/replaced by more basic emotional instincts of safety and survival (i.e. they see not only their Khaleesi but their friend in pain and suffering and unsure as to wether or not she is alright, and MMD may potentially know how to help her, who cares if shes a bloodmage).

We may have to agree to disagree on this. I just can't see the actions of those involved, especially the Dothraki, as satisfactory. Suppose, in some past time, you had a group of devout Christians who thought a woman was a witch and a devil worshipper. Some of them were of the opinion that this woman was responsible for the apparently terminal condition of their leader. None of them denied this; none defended her in any way. Even one of the devoted servants of the leader's wife wanted to kill the witch. The witch starts in on a ceremony which alarms everyone. Then the wife goes into labor, and her friends decide to take her to the witch. That makes no sense to me, and I don't see why hindsight is relevant. It would make no sense to me even if things did not turn out badly.

Women die in childbirth, but the Dothraki expect everyone to be tough. I find it hard to believe that no Dothraki woman has ever given birth without the aid of a midwife. Witches can cause death, and also things that are "less clean." There is no reason to believe that a witch might not cause death that is both painful and very "unclean."

[xspicer89x]

We may have to agree to disagree on this. I just can't see the actions of those involved, especially the Dothraki, as satisfactory. Suppose, in some past time, you had a group of devout Christians who thought a woman was a witch and a devil worshipper. Some of them were of the opinion that this woman was responsible for the apparently terminal condition of their leader. None of them denied this; none defended her in any way. Even one of the devoted servants of the leader's wife wanted to kill the witch. The witch starts in on a ceremony which alarms everyone. Then the wife goes into labor, and her friends decide to take her to the witch. That makes no sense to me, and I don't see why hindsight is relevant. It would make no sense to me even if things did not turn out badly.

Women die in childbirth, but the Dothraki expect everyone to be tough. I find it hard to believe that no Dothraki woman has ever given birth without the aid of a midwife. Witches can cause death, and also things that are "less clean." There is no reason to believe that a witch might not cause death that is both painful and very "unclean."

I can see how it certainly appears to make no sense at all, you make a convincing case. However the point I was trying to make is that behaviour always has a motivation. The behaviour and actions of individuals is not always governed by their belief system (and in fact it is quite common to have people acting against their beliefs), and as you have pointed out, the beliefs of the Dothraki concerning MMD clearly did not play a part in their behaviour, since they acted almost in complete opposite manner to what we would expect given their position towards MMD and bloodmagic. If not their beliefs, then what motivated their behaviour? My position is that is was a more basic emotional response; in the heat of the moment, they saw their friend, their queen wailing and convulsing in agonizing pain and their instinct was to act on the only option they thought they had--to take her to MMD. They may not trust "the witch", but at this moment there is no other observable solution to the problem at hand; instinct tells us either we take her to someone who knows what shes doing or we risk her dying right here and now. For all we know, none of them had ever observed child labour before and did not know what to expect (and so Dany's condition would have appeared all the more severe and life-threatening).

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Ok, just want to point out:

1) I'm pretty sure other people saw the shadows inside the tent (well at least Jorah says he did in the next chapter):

"I saw maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows." (though Dany can hear the doubt in his voice about them being only shadows). I think Jorah brought her into the tent because he felt that he had no other choice; this is his queen, his Kaleesi, but most importantly his Dany and his love.

2) It is possible that the blood sacrifice ritual is something originating is Essosi culture in general, however it also may be related particularly to worshippers of Rhllor. Its true that fire magic is probably not the same as blood magic, but the idea that "only death can/may pay for life" is a line used only by MMD and Dany in GoT (Dany who heard it from MMD--MMD arguments of Rhllorism usually boil down to her "great healing magic in fire" line and her similarities to Mel like similar powder uses), used by Jaquen in CoK (who has fairly strong arguments for being a follower of the RedGod and his sacrifices), and used by Queen Selyse and Mel in SoS (both of whom are fervid worshippers of the lord of light and promote blood sacrifice). The line is not mentioned by anyone in FfC or DwD. It is interesting to note that Rhllorites may be the only ones who dangerously emphasize that only death may pay for life. I would say that the "fire magic" of Thoros that repeatedly resurrects Beric (and subsequently gets passed on from Beric to Lady Stoneheart) is certainly different kind of magic (though I do like the point mentioned about giving a little more of himself each time).

I think Jorah meant he only saw shadows. Maybe he didn't see the shapes only the shadows, thats why he still took Dany in.

I think the term "only life can pay for death" could also be related to Valyrian magic alongside worshippers of the Red god.

Marwyn said in AFFC all valyrian magic was rooted in fire or blood. I think Beric's magic is tied to the dragons thats why its different than Mel's magic, its also similar to Bennero and Moqorro.

[xspicer89x]

I think the term "only life can pay for death" could also be related to Valyrian magic alongside worshippers of the Red god.

Marwyn said in AFFC all valyrian magic was rooted in fire or blood. I think Beric's magic is tied to the dragons thats why its different than Mel's magic, its also similar to Bennero and Moqorro.

Hmmm I like the idea of blood sacrifice related to Valyrian magic a lot :D that seems to fit. But i'm not quite sure if Beric's magic is tied to the dragons. It would seem that the blood sacrifice was necessary for bringing about dragons, but Thoros's ability to resurrect Beric appears to be relatively costless (besides Beric feeling less and less himself each time). Also, timeline wise i'm not sure if it works. Maybe it has to do with the return of the Others and there power into the world; with the return of evil comes the return of good? lol I'm not sure, but your point certainly merits more exploration I think :D

[xspicer89x]

. I think Beric's magic is tied to the dragons

Just checked. Beric first dies at the battle of the Mummer's Ford, and the closest mention of this is within a fortnight by Robb in Catelyn VIII of GoT. In the book this is just after Drogo vows to seat Dany on the Iron Throne. Granted the book is not written with a perfect linear timeline, but it would appear that Beric dies/resurrects long before Dany hatches Dragons (though if you consider her Dragon dreams as the start of when Dragons returned to the world thats a different story :P).

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Just checked. Beric first dies at the battle of the Mummer's Ford, and the closest mention of this is within a fortnight by Robb in Catelyn VIII of GoT. In the book this is just after Drogo vows to seat Dany on the Iron Throne. Granted the book is not written with a perfect linear timeline, but it would appear that Beric dies/resurrects long before Dany hatches Dragons (though if you consider her Dragon dreams as the start of when Dragons returned to the world thats a different story :P).

Yea I kind of consider the moment when she first felt the egg hot as the beginning of the dragon's magic stirring. Cause Dany got healed at that moment. :p

[Ragnorak]

Very nice write up Arya Kiddin'

I like the feel and mood that gets set at the opening of the chapter. I imagine that if Quentyn had taken the Demon Road past Valyria to get to Dany that the setting and the feel at the opening of the journey would be similar to what we get here.

<snip>

Her reaction here is not to immediately disagree, but to question herself. Perhaps deep down she knew all along what the cost would be. She might be tricking herself by believing that a horse would pay the price.

There's a build up to the ritual by MMD. She speaks of the dire price she paid for the knowledge and the cost of the ritual itself-- only death can pay for life. Dany's first reaction is that it will be her own life that pays for Drogo's and she thinks back Rhaegar dying for a woman he loved. In our first introduction to Dany she is suspicious of Illyrio because she knows that such things don't come without a price. The horse was no price to her at all. One could read the events as Dany really knowing on some level that her child was the price, but I don't think that's required. It would be natural to question herself because she knew the horse was too easy. On some level Dany did know that "the price" was something she would feel, something that would cost her personally. I read her as in a blind desperation and once she was told that she wasn't the price and her Drogo would live she stopped thinking about it. I think desperation combined with knowing the horse was "too easy" is enough to make her question herself later without requiring her to know it was Rhaego. There are plenty of tales with some amorphous future price for a service that the character "never imagines would be X" even though he or she knew full well the cost would be felt dearly.

Here is the link to Stoned Dragon's thread about MMD's dagger and the old gods connection.

Mirri's Treatment of Drogo

Here is the passage where she treats Drogo.

She let the rags of her gown fall to her waist as she opened a carved chest, and busied herself with bottles and boxes, knives and needles. When she was ready, she broke off the barbed arrowhead and pulled out the shaft, chanting in the singsong tongue of the Lhazareen. She heated a flagon of wine to boiling on the brazier, and poured it over his wounds. Khal Drogo cursed her, but he did not move. She bound the arrow wound with a plaster of wet leaves and turned to the gash on his breast, smearing it with a pale green paste before she pulled the flap of skin back in place. The khal ground his teeth together and swallowed a scream. The godswife took out a silver needle and a bobbin of silk thread and began to close the flesh. When she was done she painted the skin with red ointment, covered it with more leaves, and bound the breast in a ragged piece of lambskin.

“Drink neither wine nor the milk of the poppy,” she cautioned him. “Pain you will have, but you must keep your body strong to fight the poison spirits.”

...

“He has been dulling the hurt with milk of the poppy.”
“Yes,” Dany admitted.
“I made him a poultice of firepod and sting-me-not and bound it in a lambskin.”
“It burned, he said. He tore it off. The herbwomen made him a new one, wet and soothing.”
“It burned, yes. There is great healing magic in fire, even your hairless men know that.”

For comparative purposes we have Aemon treating Jon in a case of known benevolence

“Jon, be gentle with yourself. It is good that you have woken, but you must give yourself time to heal. We drowned the wound with boiling wine, and closed you up with a poultice of nettle, mustard seed and moldy bread, but unless you rest…”

We also have the Dothraki healing poultrice

Beneath his painted vest, a plaster of fig leaves and caked blue mud covered the wound on his breast.

We also have Cressen's observations about healing and killing:

and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel. All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill.

MMD certainly has the knowledge to poison Drogo and if we look at her actions and attitudes it isn't a stretch at all to believe that she intentionally tried to kill him. When I try and speculate on the elaborate details, I like to imagine that she knew the Dothraki healing arts and mixed a poison minus some ingredient so that the Dothraki poultice, the alcohol, or the milk of the poppy would activate the poison. I like the way that works on a number of levels, but it isn't really a knowable or especially important detail for Dany.

It is interesting that we have red, blue and green as colors in our healing treatments as they correspond to fire, ice, and the old gods-- our three main schools or sources of magic.

The plaster had caked hard as the mud walls of the Lamb Men, and like those walls it cracked easily.

The plaster as the mud of the Lamb Men walls evokes the idea of protection and fits with MMD the poisoner. Pondering this line of thought makes me think of Lysa talking about poison and a woman's honor being different. Dany is no longer a Maid but not quite a Mother in opposition to the Crone MMD as well as the crones back at Vaes Dothrok.

The child kicked inside her, as if he had heard. Dany remembered the story Viserys had told her, of what the Usurper’s dogs had done to Rhaegar’s children. His son had been a babe as well, yet they had ripped him from his mother’s breast and dashed his head against a wall. That was the way of men.

There is a theme of the ways of men vs. the ways of women here. Walls seem to play into it-- the walls of protection that keep Dothroki invaders out, the inadequate walls of the Lamb Men, the metaphorical wall of poison that killed Drogo, the wall Aegon's head was bashed against.

A final observation-- Jorah reverts to calling her "Princess" as soon as he believes Drogo is dead.

“Your khal is good as dead, Princess.”

[Arya kiddin']

Two points that I believe are worthy of development:

1. The claim, made in several threads, that Dany is all about entitlement and self-aggrandizement doesn’t stand up.

In earlier posts, I said that Dany’s “blood of the dragon” claims are definitely understandable. In truth, they are a proper way for her to assert her authority in the tough situations she faces. The last two chapters show this clearly. Earlier, Dany just thought the “dragon” business or whispered it to herself. Now she is issuing orders, and she is meeting considerable resistance. We have Jorah continuing to call her “child.” We have Qotho saying things like, “It is not for a woman to bid us halt.” Would any of the followers of Robb, Cersei, Asha, Joffrey…behave this way? I think not. Dany simply has to make it clear who is in charge. We reach a critical point when Qotho sees Drogo’s condition and says this about the khaleesi: “When he dies, she is nothing.” Dany’s reply is, “Before I was khaleesi, I was the blood of the dragon. Ser Jorah, summon my khas.” This is the end of a long process. The young queen not only claims the authority to issue orders, she puts the emphasis on her blood, her heritage, not the power she has through her husband.

Yes, and it resonates very well with her character build up. She is the last scion of a dying dynasty - the most magnificent dynasty Westeros ever saw. That is all that sustained those siblings during the rough time they had fleeing from city to city. And as you point out - she is different from all the other POVs that we see in the book along her. Robb, Cersei, Jon, Ned, Tyrion - all these people are handed power and a built up command structure. Daenerys has to eize power at every step in her arc - sometimes by force, sometimes by guile and sometimes by charisma. She is never given a built up command structure; a perk that characters like Robb and Jon enjoy.

2. Mirri Maz Duur is an anomalous character and purveyor of cryptic statements. GRRM meant her to be this.

.

“Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson.”

Some would say this. Can we take it that others would disagree? Is “the way” a good deal for “some”? One really can’t tell much from Mirri’s statement. It is vague; it was meant to be vague. Also, the maegi says she paid dear. Did anyone else pay for what she learned in Asshai? She did something or other. Presumably, she did it to someone. It seems to me that blood magic is not as tough on the practitioner as it is on the recipients. One wouldn’t know this from what MMD says here though. And what does all this have to do with being a godswife of a Lhazareen temple?

Note that I don't maintain the one thing has nothing to do with the other. Our only source of knowledge of the Lharzareen faith is MMD. We are not given any info on what the Lamb Men think about blood magic. And it still seems possible to me that Mirri's original offer to help was sincere. She didn't know anything about the prophecy at the time (unless one wants to attribute some kind of clairvoyance to her). How important would revenge be? If one khal dies, another will take his place. So what? That won't bring back any dead people, and it won't change Dothraki behavior. Also, I can't believe that MMD would have liked the idea of the sort of death that awaited her if Drogo died. On the other hand, if she cured him, she might hope for better treatment, both for herself and her people.

“Not your death, Khaleesi.”

If a person desires to be open and clear about matters, then said person can be open and clear about matters. If the deals is, “You will have to sacrifice your unborn son for your husband,” then this can be stated. Mirri Maz Duur is less open and honest than Rumpelstiltskin. Of course, Dany could have asked the maegi to spell things out. She didn’t have to presume that the death of the horse would pay for Drogo’s life. The business about seeking clarity in negotiations, especially negotiations with people you don’t trust, will be important in later Daenerys POVs. For now, I’ll just underline my claim about an anomalous character putting out cryptic statements. I think Martin wanted a character that different readers would read different ways. Did MMD ever intend to heal Khal Drogo? I don’t think the text will ever provide a definitive answer to that question.

I agree - all her tatements have been kept purposefully vague by GRRM. I don;t think MMD keeps to a particular faith - as Melisandre does (or Thoros) or as say Kindly Man does. She is a witch. She has studied widely about magic and healing from wherever she could - from a Maester, from Shadowbinders and Moonsingers and from godswives of the Lhazareen too, apparently.

As for killing Drogo - I think there is equal evidence for and against it. I so far remain quite undecided. And would she even think of getting a better station in the Khalasar after all she has lost. I think she is past that. In next chapter we'll see her tell Dany - 'Look what life is worth when all else is gone' : implying she had already lost hope of ever improving her life now. All she did she did either out of spite, or for averting the birth of Rhaego, or both.

The business about seeking clarity in negotiations, especially negotiations with people you don’t trust, will be important in later Daenerys POVs. - A good point indeed.

<snip>

The question that I find most interesting about this similarity is whether or not MMD is using the powder only to scare away Dany and her handmaids so that no one interferes with her ceremony or does the powder actually have a deeper purpose to MMD’s ceremony? I like to think that it’s more than just a “smoke for fear” as Mel claims—she’s wrong way too often, and is certainly more of a novice than the master sorceress she attempts to portray to the outside world. Mel just doesn’t have the expertise that she would have us believe, so its quite possible that MDD knows a bit more about the powders true purpose (I.e. involved with sacrifice and sorcery), while Mel has only been noticing side effects (i.e. like the inducement of fear).

Thanks for proviing the quotes, it is much more clearer now. :)

It would be very intereting if thi indeed is true. Mel clearly is too full of herself - we see in her POV that it is not a lie she tell the world, but she herself is quite convinced that she is a Master Sorcerer, better than any in her order. We already know that Thoros possesses magic far greater than he does, it would be interesting if it turns out that MMD indeed was more accomplished than Mel.

It's interesting, at this stage, to consider Mirri's overall association with magic. She has a bronze knife from the Old God's, sacrificing in their style. She's studied in Asshai, where the Red God must have had a huge influence on her (the only other time we hear the 'only death may pay for life' mantra happens to be with Jaqen when in Red God mode). She studied shadowbinding. She's from a deeply religious family, and is a Godswife to the Lamb God temple. She's studied birthing songs of the moonsingers (sings as the dragons are born). She knows herbal (poultice) uses of the Dothraki tradition and also the medicines of Maester Marwyn (!)

So much of this expertise seems useful to her role in the story in such a short space of time with Dany. It's quite curious. With Marwyn headed out to Dany, it will be very interesting to hear what he has to say about Mirri.

I don't think it was so clear, because of this....

Her reaction here is not to immediately disagree, but to question herself. Perhaps deep down she knew all along what the cost would be. She might be tricking herself by believing that a horse would pay the price.

This irked me as well. She has such a wide arsenal of talents. I'm indeed curious on what Marwyn will have to say about her.

Dany when asked by Mirri firt tries to give herself up for sacrifice. When Mirri assures her that it is not her life that is needed, she just says 'do it' - without any further ado. This was a little naive on her part, entering into a deal without knowing what she has bargained for, but she realizes that the price is too high in the same chapter actually. When she sees all the three bloodriders dead, she knows that the horse is not the only life she has had to sacrifice:

"No," she wept, "no, please, stop it, it's too high, the price is too high."

That's very good Arya Kidding.

IMO, MMD never told an outright lie to Dany, but she never told her the whole truth either. As I explained upthread, I'm very sympathetic to MMD, but I don't accept the argument that she acted in good faith, and fell victim to Dany's spite at the end.

Dany's actions will have consequences in TWOW.

1. Khal Jhaqo, Mago, and their followers must absolutely hate her, given the general reaction to the use of blood magic. I don't see any realistic possibility of negotiation between them. If Drogon were to fly off, I think Dany would be killed hideously. There'd be no question of her being brought back to Vaes Dothrak.

2. How will Marwyn react to someone who burned his student alive?

1. As Maester notes upthread, I do believe she will be taken to VD, where she will be proclaimed TStmTW. :)

2. Marwyn appears to me a practical man. I believe the news will keep him on his toes, but he would be largely indifferent to it.

[Arya kiddin']

Nice job, Arya kiddin'

She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

The great wolf is Ghost, and the man wreathed in flames is wighted Othor when Jon threw the burning drapes on him.

Yes I've seen that interpretation before. But I'll have to disagree here with you and yolkboy. I think those shadows that are so symbolic of a Stark-Targ ort of a lineup have to be understood in terms of an event to be expected to be much more grander (for the lack of a better word) incident, and not just an event that happened a few months past. As Ser Pollo says, I think it can refer to Jon's 'resurrction', I'm not sure how.

Add that in, and I think we have enough foreshadowing for Jon's resurrection using the magic of greenseeing associated with the Old Gods.

Agreed. :cheers: