Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[Parwan]

.....Wow. You know I never thought about that before. 'Fossil' doesn't apply to an egg that's 50-100 years old, they are ancient eggs. No chance of life within them whatsoever. They are not related to any of the Dragons in PATQ. They are older, much older and not from the same lands as all the other dragons we have met. Which would explain why they are so big and healthy, not like the dying breed hold up at KL. This sheds a completely different light on the Pyre, I don't know why I hadn't ever really looked at this side of it before........DOn't you all agree that no other Targaryen could have felt the warmth in the eggs?? It had to be Dany, for instance Viserys could have never felt warmth in those eggs, could have never brought them to life....... I think Dany is a worthy, perhaps reincarnated member of her ancient race. I think there have been very few Targaryens we have met who would fit into this description.....Something is beyond special about her. She is like an idea of a human brought to life by the Gods, seen on Earth through their eyes of what a perfect person would be (not to say everything she chooses in life is perfect) but something along the lines of The Fifth Element. she is elevated among the human race.......you guys get what I mean?

My basic response is, "Well, that's one way of looking at it." You and some other people put the emphasis on Dany. Others put the emphasis on the situation. For example, it may be that Dany is fulfilling part of a prophecy. Someone else could have fulfilled it; Daenerys was just the right person at the right place & time. Upthread, Gogossos says that Dany's situation was different from that of her relatives. The other Targs were calling on dragons when there were no dragons around to answer.

Queen Alysanne has a theory that sound, particularly song, is of vital importance. She defends this idea here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96606-rethinking-magic-in-asoiaf-part-i-dragonbinders-dragonbonding-and-dragonlords-adwd-affc-and-agot-spoilers/

Of course, it's possible to combine the idea of a special situation and a special person. I mentioned my thread "Dany the Rider" earlier. In that thread, RoamingRonin maintains that Daenerys was the "focal point " of what happened on the pyre. In that thread or a similar one, The Mother of The Others refers to Dany as "a magic savant." I like that phrase.

There are many possibilities. My main assertions are that deep magic is involved and that Dany herself is magical.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

My basic response is, "Well, that's one way of looking at it." You and some other people put the emphasis on Dany. Others put the emphasis on the situation. For example, it may be that Dany is fulfilling part of a prophecy. Someone else could have fulfilled it; Daenerys was just the right person at the right place & time. Upthread, Gogossos says that Dany's situation was different from that of her relatives. The other Targs were calling on dragons when there were no dragons around to answer.

Queen Alysanne has a theory that sound, particularly song, is of vital importance. She defends this idea here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96606-rethinking-magic-in-asoiaf-part-i-dragonbinders-dragonbonding-and-dragonlords-adwd-affc-and-agot-spoilers/

Of course, it's possible to combine the idea of a special situation and a special person. I mentioned my thread "Dany the Rider" earlier. In that thread, RoamingRonin maintains that Daenerys was the "focal point " of what happened on the pyre. In that thread or a similar one, The Mother of The Others refers to Dany as "a magic savant." I like that phrase.

There are many possibilities. My main assertions are that deep magic is involved and that Dany herself is magical.

But Dany wasn't calling the Dragons, She seemed to have an idea that the fossilized eggs would hatch. Even though by all laws of science and nature they should not be hatching. I do not think that 'just anyone' could have felt the warmth or hatched the eggs. It was her destiny.

[Annara Snow]

Great analysis, SeanF, and great thoughts, everyone!

I would like to discuss something that has always bothered me about this part of Dany's arc - the seeming inconsistency in Drogo's sexual behavior at the start of this chapter and in the previous one. In the previous chapter, we saw Drogo being surprisingly gentle with Dany and being very good in foreplay, getting her aroused and willing to have sex. But in this chapter, before Dany takes control of their sex life, it seems that he just comes to their tent and 'takes' Dany, not bothering much to get her into the mood and not paying attention if she is enjoying herself or not. How do you explain this? Did he think he just needed to ease her into it the first time, but that this wasn't needed afterwards? Is it really just something that Dany needed to learn to endure and even come to like, as she does in this chapter? One poster on this forum even thinks the book version of their wedding night makes Drogo look worse due to the next chapter, because it shows that he knows how to make sex enjoyable to Dany, but isn't bothering after the first time. And what do you think of the TV version of the story compared to the book? Does it make more sense for Drogo and their relationship? Or does the TV version make Dany falling in love with him less believable?

Great Essay SeanF!! I agree on all of it :bowdown:

I found this interesting as its almost similar to the comparison of Daario and Hizdahr at the end of ADWD, meaning this is where the author wants Dany to go, rather than being a "Queen" in silks.

Again GRRM makes another distinction in Dany's character:

“You are learning to talk like a queen, Daenerys.” “Not a queen,” said Dany. “A khaleesi.” She wheeled her horse about and galloped down the ridge alone.

I think this quote is very important towards Dany's arc as she later goes on to become a "queen". I think the difference between a queen and a khaleesi is very symbolic in Dany's arc. As I made the distinctions above between her and Viserys and also Hizdahr and Daario and I believe they all point toward the distinction of Queen vs. Khaleesi in Dany's arc.

I think the symbolic difference is that a "Queen" sits back and lets others do things for them vs the Khaleesi symbol which is taking command, being proactive and doing things along side your people more like a leader. This motif is a very important part of Dany's arc, later on we will even see that it is even symbolized as Dany wearing a Dothraki vest in some instances.

Great thoughts.

"I pray for home too," she told him, believing it.

Ser Jorah laughed. "Look around you then, Khaleesi."

Jorah can give some sage words sometimes, his words being a way of saying "home is where you make it." Dany is pretty rootless, and had never known a real home, and she is starting to call the Dothraki Sea home.

It is ironic in a sad way that Dany is thinking of Westeros as home, but cannot still see the Dothraki Sea as 'home', but at the end of the book, as she's lying half-conscious and dreaming after the stillbirth of Rhaego, she dreams of being back in the Dothraki Sea with Drogo and the Dothraki khalasaar. That time of her life will becomee a lost memory of one of the happiest times in her life, alongside her childhood in the house with the red door.

Other Notes

Here are a few things that also occurred to me while reading the chapter:

1. Ser Jorah

"Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end"

"That thought gave Dany the shivers. “I don’t want to talk about that now,” she said. “It’s so beautiful here, I don’t want to think about everything dying."

Two things occurred to me while reading this exchange:

a. I thing the ghost grass might be related to the Others. We will see in ADWD that Xaro Xhaon Daxos has reached Qarth, so it has began to spread.

b. The subject is unpleasant to Dany and she ask Jorah to stop because she doesn’t want it to ruin the day. For the first time in her life she is able to control the "unpleasantness of life" and so decides to shut it away. However, this will later reflect negatively on her ability to listen to the harsh truths of life.

That first paragraph you quoted caught my attention this time, too - although I don't remember paying any attention to it when I was first reading the book. It didn't occur to me that the grass may be related to the Others - I just thought it was foreshadowing a war against the Others that may be Dany's ultimate destiny, and I wasn't sure if the ghost grass really existed. (Do we have evidence that it does?) But if it does, what kind of connection does it have to the Others, being so geographically removed? The Others cannot survive south of the Wall. The ghost grass grows in the Shadowlands; does it also have some boundary that's preventing it from spreading throughout the world?

4. Finally, we hear from Doreah the Qarthian story regarding the origins of the dragons"

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

I think this is a clear hint from GRRM regarding one of Dany's purposes. She is clearly the second moon (Moon of my life) who will later "kiss the sun" (the pyre) and bring back the dragons.

Brilliant, I never thought of that!

Dany is "the moon (of my life)" and Khal Drogo is "(my) sun (and stars)"; but instead of her marriage to Drogo producing a metaphorical young dragon (a Targaryen heir and Dothraki stallion), another "marriage" - to the fire - produces Dany's "children", the dragons.

I think it was butterbumps! who said that Dany's relationship with Drogo is metaphorical of her relationship with raw power, her growing discovery of it within herself, and her learning how to control it. I think there's a lot of truth in that, but Dany's relationship with power and violence (which can be both good and bad, and which, as we see in her arc, she uses to achieve her goals, such as the liberation of slaves, and which she arguably must use to achieve her goals, whether it's simply to survive or to liberate slaves and end slavery) is primarily portrayed through her relationship with her dragons; particularly the one she has always had the strongest bond with, Drogon. (The link Drogo - Drogon is obvious.)

As mentioned by all of you, it's an exceptionally strong bond; it's been compared to the Starks' relationships with their direwolves, but what's particularly astonishing is that Dany could feel her dragons, particularly Drogon, while they were just fossilized fetuses inside the eggs. Dany starts feeling her dragon babies in the eggs even before she starts feeling her unborn human baby in her womb. In a later chapter, it seems she has some kind of special feeling that tells her it is going to be a boy. At the end of the book, her human son Rhaego, presumably as a result of a "fire and blood" magic ritual, apparently turns into a dead dragon-like baby, who has been "dead for years" (like the dragon fetuses?). His life was presumably taken, together with a horse's life (?), to give Drogo another shot at "life", even though it can barely be called that. Dany proceeds to exchange Drogo's supposed life, a horse, and Mirri Maz Duur's life, for the life of her three dragon babies. Indirectly, Rhaego's life is exchanged for the life of Dany's dragon children; if Dany had given birth to a healthy human Rhaego, her dragons wouldn't have been hatched. Put another way: if she had remained a powerful man's wife and become a happy mother of a future Stallion Who Mounts the World, she wouldn't have needed to step into the fire and be reborn as a ruler and wielder of power and violence, "fire and blood", in her own right.

Dany's dragon dream, in which she sees the black and red dragon (the colors of the House Targaryen!), Drogon, with blood on his scales, which she realizes is her blood, made me wonder if this is just foreshadowing of the ending of AGOT, when dragons are born after Dany's stillbirth of Rhaego, or (also) the ending of ADWD, when Dany rides Drogon for the first time and goes back to find the Dothraki, after miscarrying.

Dany's second pregnancy is completely different from the first: in AGOT, when she was pregnant with Rhaego, Dany was aware of her pregnancy very early on, was sure it would be a son and named him, and had great expectations. The second time, she wasn't even aware that she was pregnant, because she had been so overcome with the problems of ruling Meereen, that she didn't even pay attention to her periods and couldn't remember when it was. Which is a reflection of how out of touch with herself and the "blood" she had been in Meereen.

But both times, Dany's unsuccessful pregnancies ended in life-changing, dramatic moments when Dany connected or re-connected with her inner dragon, and the literal dragons she has hatched. Since everything seems to come in threes in Dany's life (or at least the prophecies suggest that), does it mean that she will have a third pregnancy? How will that pregnancy end, and what life-changing event will it signal?

-----------------

Finally, there were a couple of lines that seem like ironic foreshadowing on the re-read: Viserys yells at Dany: "You do not command the dragon!"...As a matter of fact, that's exactly what she will be doing, and what she learns to do in Daznak's Pit. He also asks her "Have you forgotten who you are?" - which will become the big question for Dany in ADWD, but in a completely different meaning that the one Viserys had in mind!

[Parwan]

But Dany wasn't calling the Dragons, She seemed to have an idea that the fossilized eggs would hatch. Even though by all laws of science and nature they should not be hatching. I do not think that 'just anyone' could have felt the warmth or hatched the eggs. It was her destiny.

It's true that, to this point in the story, Daenerys has not tried to call dragons. That will change though. A fuller discussion of the matter can be postponed until we get to the pyre scene. For now, I will note that saying Dany has a destiny is not as strong a claim as saying, " I think Dany is a worthy, perhaps reincarnated member of her ancient race. I think there have been very few Targaryens we have met who would fit into this description.....Something is beyond special about her. She is like an idea of a human brought to life by the Gods, seen on Earth through their eyes of what a perfect person would be (not to say everything she chooses in life is perfect) but something along the lines of The Fifth Element." It's possible that the latter claim may be justified, but there are other possibilities. There are also matters other than just the question of who can raise dragons. A matter that has been discussed elsewhere and no doubt will be discussed on this thread: Is bringing forth dragons a good thing? It's not clear to me that, in the final analysis, the answer is "yes."

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

As mentioned by all of you, it's an exceptionally strong bond; it's been compared to the Starks' relationships with their direwolves, but what's particularly astonishing is that Dany could feel her dragons, particularly Drogon, while they were just fossilized fetuses inside the eggs. Dany starts feeling her dragon babies in the eggs even before she starts feeling her unborn human baby in her womb. In a later chapter, it seems she has some kind of special feeling that tells her it is going to be a boy. At the end of the book, her human son Rhaego, presumably as a result of a "fire and blood" magic ritual, apparently turns into a dead dragon-like baby, who has been "dead for years" (like the dragon fetuses?). His life was presumably taken, together with a horse's life (?), to give Drogo another shot at "life", even though it can barely be called that. Dany proceeds to exchange Drogo's supposed life, a horse, and Mirri Maz Duur's life, for the life of her three dragon babies. Indirectly, Rhaego's life is exchanged for the life of Dany's dragon children; if Dany had given birth to a healthy human Rhaego, her dragons wouldn't have been hatched. Put another way: if she had remained a powerful man's wife and become a happy mother of a future Stallion Who Mounts the World, she wouldn't have needed to step into the fire and be reborn as a ruler and wielder of power and violence, "fire and blood", in her own right.

Dany's dragon dream, in which she sees the black and red dragon (the colors of the House Targaryen!), Drogon, with blood on his scales, which she realizes is her blood, made me wonder if this is just foreshadowing of the ending of AGOT, when dragons are born after Dany's stillbirth of Rhaego, or (also) the ending of ADWD, when Dany rides Drogon for the first time and goes back to find the Dothraki, after miscarrying.

Dany's second pregnancy is completely different from the first: in AGOT, when she was pregnant with Rhaego, Dany was aware of her pregnancy very early on, was sure it would be a son and named him, and had great expectations. The second time, she wasn't even aware that she was pregnant, because she had been so overcome with the problems of ruling Meereen, that she didn't even pay attention to her periods and couldn't remember when it was. Which is a reflection of how out of touch with herself and the "blood" she had been in Meereen.

But both times, Dany's unsuccessful pregnancies ended in life-changing, dramatic moments when Dany connected or re-connected with her inner dragon, and the literal dragons she has hatched. Since everything seems to come in threes in Dany's life (or at least the prophecies suggest that), does it mean that she will have a third pregnancy? How will that pregnancy end, and what life-changing event will it signal?

I agree with this completely.

So far we have seen 2 of the dragon dreams in Dany II and Dany III, and in the first one she has a still birth which calls out a dragon and the the second one she is connected to the dragon.

I agree with you completely on the similarities between ADWD and AGOT endings. She has stillbirths in both of them, her hair is burned both of them and she is connected to the Drogon in both. I think they signify some sort of rebirth, bonding and also magic.

The blood from the stillbirth in the dream is the same blood she sees on Drogon and this causes him to "sing" to her.

This part is kind of far-fetched but I'll throw it out there anyway. In celtic and norse mythology (which GRRM has inspired alot of his magic in the series) moon blood/ stillbirth blood etc. is usually used as a binding spell to attract men or animals and bind them to the woman's will. Dany stillbirths in both occasions called Drogon so I don't know if I'm reaching here.

[Odon]

Great analysis, SeanF, and great thoughts, everyone!

I would like to discuss something that has always bothered me about this part of Dany's arc - the seeming inconsistency in Drogo's sexual behavior at the start of this chapter and in the previous one. In the previous chapter, we saw Drogo being surprisingly gentle with Dany and being very good in foreplay, getting her aroused and willing to have sex. But in this chapter, before Dany takes control of their sex life, it seems that he just comes to their tent and 'takes' Dany, not bothering much to get her into the mood and not paying attention if she is enjoying herself or not. How do you explain this? Did he think he just needed to ease her into it the first time, but that this wasn't needed afterwards? Is it really just something that Dany needed to learn to endure and even come to like, as she does in this chapter? One poster on this forum even thinks the book version of their wedding night makes Drogo look worse due to the next chapter, because it shows that he knows how to make sex enjoyable to Dany, but isn't bothering after the first time. And what do you think of the TV version of the story compared to the book? Does it make more sense for Drogo and their relationship? Or does the TV version make Dany falling in love with him less believable?

While the TV version has been criticised by those who read the books first, I think it does show how Danys is thrown in the deep end and has to use what tools she has to survive and flourish. Traditionally a woman who uses sex to manipulate men is portrayed in a negative light, even as evil (eg. Cersei) but here it's a sign of Danys taking control of her situation. Danys is advised by Doreah how to take a more assertive role, which changes how her husband views her. Given that the only other powerful (and sexual) male in her life was her brother, it makes sense she'd fall for Drogo who is more than capable of living the alpha male role without having to bully her.

[MoIaF]

That first paragraph you quoted caught my attention this time, too - although I don't remember paying any attention to it when I was first reading the book. It didn't occur to me that the grass may be related to the Others - I just thought it was foreshadowing a war against the Others that may be Dany's ultimate destiny, and I wasn't sure if the ghost grass really existed. (Do we have evidence that it does?) But if it does, what kind of connection does it have to the Others, being so geographically removed? The Others cannot survive south of the Wall. The ghost grass grows in the Shadowlands; does it also have some boundary that's preventing it from spreading throughout the world?

Yes, we see the Ghost Grass mentioned again, Xaro Xhaon Daxis tells Dany that the Ghost Grass is growing in Qarth in the Garden of Gehane. This could be either a sign or a parallel of the coming winter or also a sign of the Others movement. I imagine that Asshai and The Shadow Lands being sources of fire magic would have their own signs of the coming of winter.

Whatever source of magic or barrier has kept the Ghost Grass from not growing outside of the Shadow Lands has somehow been eroded and in turn this might parallel the erosion of magic at the Wall which is how the Others might get through.

1. Brilliant, I never thought of that!

Dany is "the moon (of my life)" and Khal Drogo is "(my) sun (and stars)"; but instead of her marriage to Drogo producing a metaphorical young dragon (a Targaryen heir and Dothraki stallion), another "marriage" - to the fire - produces Dany's "children", the dragons.

I think it was butterbumps! who said that Dany's relationship with Drogo is metaphorical of her relationship with raw power, her growing discovery of it within herself, and her learning how to control it. I think there's a lot of truth in that, but Dany's relationship with power and violence (which can be both good and bad, and which, as we see in her arc, she uses to achieve her goals, such as the liberation of slaves, and which she arguably must use to achieve her goals, whether it's simply to survive or to liberate slaves and end slavery) is primarily portrayed through her relationship with her dragons; particularly the one she has always had the strongest bond with, Drogon. (The link Drogo - Drogon is obvious.)

2. Dany's second pregnancy is completely different from the first: in AGOT, when she was pregnant with Rhaego, Dany was aware of her pregnancy very early on, was sure it would be a son and named him, and had great expectations. The second time, she wasn't even aware that she was pregnant, because she had been so overcome with the problems of ruling Meereen, that she didn't even pay attention to her periods and couldn't remember when it was. Which is a reflection of how out of touch with herself and the "blood" she had been in Meereen.

But both times, Dany's unsuccessful pregnancies ended in life-changing, dramatic moments when Dany connected or re-connected with her inner dragon, and the literal dragons she has hatched. Since everything seems to come in threes in Dany's life (or at least the prophecies suggest that), does it mean that she will have a third pregnancy? How will that pregnancy end, and what life-changing event will it signal?

1. Thanks! It's funny now that we are reading these chapters knowing what's going to happen because there is an awful lot of foreshadowing going on. I like how you put it:

“Dany is "the moon (of my life)" and Khal Drogo is "(my) sun (and stars)"; but instead of her marriage to Drogo producing a metaphorical young dragon (a Targaryen heir and Dothraki stallion), another "marriage" - to the fire - produces Dany's "children", the dragons.”

Mother of dragons, Bride of Fire...

2. I think there will be a third pregnancy; Dany is the child of three. If things follow as they have so far then the third pregnancy will be of a live baby (three adepts to produce Lightbringer). ;) Just kidding...

As you mentioned above it most likely will culminate in a life changing event as the other two have. My wish is that she does not die giving birth, we’ve had way too many mother dying given birth and it would at least for me be anticlimactic. Dany is such a dynamic character and has survived so much (including two miscarriages) if she dies she should die fighting. As for the life-changing event perhaps with the birth of her child Dany will finally find peace and a home. But that’s probably too hopeful. :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It's true that, to this point in the story, Daenerys has not tried to call dragons. That will change though. A fuller discussion of the matter can be postponed until we get to the pyre scene. For now, I will note that saying Dany has a destiny is not as strong a claim as saying, " I think Dany is a worthy, perhaps reincarnated member of her ancient race. I think there have been very few Targaryens we have met who would fit into this description.....Something is beyond special about her. She is like an idea of a human brought to life by the Gods, seen on Earth through their eyes of what a perfect person would be (not to say everything she chooses in life is perfect) but something along the lines of The Fifth Element." It's possible that the latter claim may be justified, but there are other possibilities. There are also matters other than just the question of who can raise dragons. A matter that has been discussed elsewhere and no doubt will be discussed on this thread: Is bringing forth dragons a good thing? It's not clear to me that, in the final analysis, the answer is "yes."

Yes sometimes I expand my thoughts quite a lot, I basically meant the same thing though. That it is her destiny to bring forth the dragons and that she is an old soul from her ancient family.

I think we could have a whole thread on whether or not it is 'right' to bring the dragons. As far as an interesting read goes, the answer is yes. As far as how it will affect the people of Westeros based on what Dany knows about the world, the answer is no. Dragons are destructive monsters who have brought fire and terror to thousands of people over millenniums. But the third answer, will the dragons be an ultimate good or bad thing in ASOIAF, is definitely yes. What else on this planet could possibly stop the (ice) white walkers? The only answer is (fire) dragons, so yes I think ultimately the dragons will save all the seven kingdoms from the long night and a 100+ year reign of the WW's. We have gotten off point here, I just wanted to tell you how I felt in general. :cool4:

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree with this completely.

So far we have seen 2 of the dragon dreams in Dany II and Dany III, and in the first one she has a still birth which calls out a dragon and the the second one she is connected to the dragon.

I agree with you completely on the similarities between ADWD and AGOT endings. She has stillbirths in both of them, her hair is burned both of them and she is connected to the Drogon in both. I think they signify some sort of rebirth, bonding and also magic.

The blood from the stillbirth in the dream is the same blood she sees on Drogon and this causes him to "sing" to her.

This part is kind of far-fetched but I'll throw it out there anyway. In celtic and norse mythology (which GRRM has inspired alot of his magic in the series) moon blood/ stillbirth blood etc. is usually used as a binding spell to attract men or animals and bind them to the woman's will. Dany stillbirths in both occasions called Drogon so I don't know if I'm reaching here.

Also about her 2nd dream. She sees a giant black dragon who sings to her. then a few pages later she is looking at the eggs and the one which has been warm to her already is the black one with scarlet tipped scales. And of course that one is Drogon. And that's when she makes the connection that the black/scarlet egg contains the dragon she saw in her dream. It is also the egg that the wisp of light was reaching out too that one day in her tent. So at this point her and Drogon have basically chosen each other already. She dreamed about him full grown, he bathed her in fire, sings to her and his egg is already warm to her touch. What does this mean though? Has the baby dragon already started coming to life in its egg? Why would it already be warm to her? Are these all signs from her subconscious or is the egg actually already heating up?

[Arya kiddin']

Some explanation is eluding me, if someone can clarify a bit. :) So we're constantly observing that the black and scarlet dragon - Drogon was already calling out to Daenerys while dormant in the stone form. We see constantly that the dragon she dreams about is always the same black and scarlet one - that is the one that hatches with the loudest *crack* and that is the one who bonds with her the most.

Yet we see, that on the pyre all three eggs hatch. So while the dream connection was there before the hatching, we may note the connection is not necessary to hatch dragons - it is only necessary for bonding. Otherwise Viserion and Rhaegal might never have been hatched, yet they did, before Drogon. So, when we come to the last chapter and discuss the Pyre, we'll have to examine the details of the scene as to what might've happened that all three dragons hatched and not just the one Dany bonded with.

What would be really interesting to see is if fome other POV is also having such dragon dreams like Tyrion and Bran, and the dragons might've bonded with them instead, chosen them, as Drogon chose Daenerys - thereby clarifying who will be riding whom in the future. :)

[Gogossos]

Interesting exchange there between Parwan and Suzanna, I hope you don't mind me diving in.

My basic response is, "Well, that's one way of looking at it." You and some other people put the emphasis on Dany. Others put the emphasis on the situation. For example, it may be that Dany is fulfilling part of a prophecy. Someone else could have fulfilled it; Daenerys was just the right person at the right place & time. Upthread, Gogossos says that Dany's situation was different from that of her relatives. The other Targs were calling on dragons when there were no dragons around to answer.

There are many possibilities. My main assertions are that deep magic is involved and that Dany herself is magical.

Firstly, the two ideas that either the timing/situation was right or that Dany was the right person aren't exactly mutually exclusive. I love the insight that the dragons are ancient, older than the Westeros brood, and so the question will have to be asked why such old creatures are coming back now? The only answer I can come up with is the Others. Something has stirred both old powers to life and the dragons have chosen Dany as part of their method. Now, I did mention that Summerhall and other attempts didn't work simply because the old powers weren't there. Notice that I said "old powers". The dragons had died away, whatever had sustained their lives had gone. And now Parwan has suggested that ancient dragons are waking, the old life force is back; we have to wonder about the next step. If Summerhall had taken place at this time would it have succeeded? Or do we still need Dany, uniquely Dany, to wake up the dragons from stone?

But Dany wasn't calling the Dragons, She seemed to have an idea that the fossilized eggs would hatch. Even though by all laws of science and nature they should not be hatching. I do not think that 'just anyone' could have felt the warmth or hatched the eggs. It was her destiny.

I tend to lean towards this view, though not to Suzanna's extent of the perfect life incarnate. But I get what she's driving at. Other Targs will still fail if they lived during Dany's time because they wouldn't feel the warmth of those eggs, they wouldn't dream about the exact dragon before it hatched, they wouldn't - in effect - be called. There's a reason why there are prophecies in the series, someone will eventually fulfil at some or most of the criteria. Now, if we step back a little, to the time when a prophecy is made. The old powers would touch a person, to make them see/feel/dream the future. Eventually, the person prophesied about will be approached by those same old powers or will be born with those powers in them. This is what I think is happening here. "Destiny" is perhaps too strong a word for me (I still like the idea of free will) so I will settle for this: Drogon doesn't "force" Dany to bring him, Viserion and Rhaegal forth, but rather they are now there, waiting for her, should she want to rise up to the occasion. Rather like the direwolves, Grey Wind warned Robb but couldn't really force him to do anything.

Finally, I'd like to touch on Arya kiddin's idea above. This basically assumes that Dany's dreams of Drogon are quite separate from her being on the path to waking dragons from stone. That is, though related, those two things are separate: Dany was always going to wind up in the pyre, she just needed to nurse a separate bond with her dragon purely as a rider. I tend to disagree a little. I think Dany's bond with the other two, as a 'mother', is actually stronger than it appears. This is for later discussion but I believe her bond with the dragons is more magical than simply maternal. [Dany, as I always say, for such a major POV, she is so "incurious", she will not let readers into some of her inner, innermost thoughts. I suppose it is our job to pry those open.] The dragons are not, for example, as wild as the trio from TP&TQ. But they are riderless and I have no idea how rider spots are handed out. So while I think it's a good idea that Viserion and Rhaegal reached out to others whilst still fossilised, it still not enough to convince me yet. I'm still too wedded to Suzanna's destiny idea (at least a chunk of it!).

[Parwan]

Interesting exchange there between Parwan and Suzanna, I hope you don't mind me diving in.

1. Firstly, the two ideas that either the timing/situation was right or that Dany was the right person aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

I love the insight that the dragons are ancient, older than the Westeros brood, and so

2. the question will have to be asked why such old creatures are coming back now? The only answer I can come up with is the Others. Something has stirred both old powers to life and the dragons have chosen Dany as part of their method. Now, I did mention that Summerhall and other attempts didn't work simply because the old powers weren't there. Notice that I said "old powers". The dragons had died away, whatever had sustained their lives had gone. And now Parwan has suggested that ancient dragons are waking, the old life force is back;

3. we have to wonder about the next step. If Summerhall had taken place at this time would it have succeeded? Or do we still need Dany, uniquely Dany, to wake up the dragons from stone?

I tend to lean towards this view, though not to Suzanna's extent of the perfect life incarnate. But I get what she's driving at. Other Targs will still fail if they lived during Dany's time because they wouldn't feel the warmth of those eggs, they wouldn't dream about the exact dragon before it hatched, they wouldn't - in effect - be called. There's a reason why there are prophecies in the series, someone will eventually fulfil at some or most of the criteria. Now, if we step back a little, to the time when a prophecy is made. The old powers would touch a person, to make them see/feel/dream the future. Eventually, the person prophesied about will be approached by those same old powers or will be born with those powers in them. This is what I think is happening here. "Destiny" is perhaps too strong a word for me (I still like the idea of free will) so I will settle for this: Drogon doesn't "force" Dany to bring him, Viserion and Rhaegal forth, but rather they are now there, waiting for her, should she want to rise up to the occasion. Rather like the direwolves, Grey Wind warned Robb but couldn't really force him to do anything.

...

1. True

2. I can come up with other answers to the "why now?" question. However, when I think about it for a while, many of these answers are essentially variations on a theme. The rise of the dragons and the return of the threat of the Others are probably linked in some way or other.

3. Is Dany the only female who tries to bring back dragons? As far as I remember, this is the case. At least she is the only female Targaryen to do so. We could include Quaithe and Melisandre as women who have an interest in the return of the dragons and who are doing something to bring it about. Those two, however, are more or less midwives. Is the (or at least a) "mother of dragons" necessary for rebirth?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Some explanation is eluding me, if someone can clarify a bit. :) So we're constantly observing that the black and scarlet dragon - Drogon was already calling out to Daenerys while dormant in the stone form. We see constantly that the dragon she dreams about is always the same black and scarlet one - that is the one that hatches with the loudest *crack* and that is the one who bonds with her the most.

Yet we see, that on the pyre all three eggs hatch. So while the dream connection was there before the hatching, we may note the connection is not necessary to hatch dragons - it is only necessary for bonding. Otherwise Viserion and Rhaegal might never have been hatched, yet they did, before Drogon. So, when we come to the last chapter and discuss the Pyre, we'll have to examine the details of the scene as to what might've happened that all three dragons hatched and not just the one Dany bonded with.

What would be really interesting to see is if fome other POV is also having such dragon dreams like Tyrion and Bran, and the dragons might've bonded with them instead, chosen them, as Drogon chose Daenerys - thereby clarifying who will be riding whom in the future. :)

I agree with this. The second dream is meant to show a connection between Dany and Drogon. The word 'singing' is a very significant word here, it has been used several times in the text for relationships between familiars and humans. Summer Sings to Bran whiles he is sick and this speeds up his healing and also Mel uses a 'song' to control Ghost for a moment and also the horn that can bind dragons uses a 'sound'. All these examples point towards 'singing' and 'sounds' being at least one of the keys to bridging the gap between humans and magical familiars.

[Arya kiddin']

Finally, I'd like to touch on Arya kiddin's idea above. This basically assumes that Dany's dreams of Drogon are quite separate from her being on the path to waking dragons from stone. That is, though related, those two things are separate: Dany was always going to wind up in the pyre, she just needed to nurse a separate bond with her dragon purely as a rider. I tend to disagree a little. I think Dany's bond with the other two, as a 'mother', is actually stronger than it appears. This is for later discussion but I believe her bond with the dragons is more magical than simply maternal. [Dany, as I always say, for such a major POV, she is so "incurious", she will not let readers into some of her inner, innermost thoughts. I suppose it is our job to pry those open.] The dragons are not, for example, as wild as the trio from TP&TQ. But they are riderless and I have no idea how rider spots are handed out. So while I think it's a good idea that Viserion and Rhaegal reached out to others whilst still fossilised, it still not enough to convince me yet. I'm still too wedded to Suzanna's destiny idea (at least a chunk of it!).

I think I could not make my point very clearly. :( Daenerys of course was the principle factor instrumental in bringing the dragons back, yes all of them. Without her, the pyre will not have happened. Whether it is because she was prophesied to be on the pyre and her path took her there, or whether she actively chose to be on pyre and some miracle awoke the dragons is entirely philosophical. I believe it was a mix of both.

The point I was making is that while Daenerys is undoeubtedly the mother of dragons, there is one special bond she shares with one of her dragons, Drogon. This dragon spoke to him while still in the stone form. Drogon also grows faster and is more stronger than his brothers , is the one who protects Daenerys in HotU, the one who obeys her despite being handles to a slaver in chain, and the one who comes to her in Daznak's pit to take her away. She certainly shares more of a bond with Drogon than with other two, and I think it would be interesting if the other two share such a bond with someone else.

[SeanF]

1. True

2. I can come up with other answers to the "why now?" question. However, when I think about it for a while, many of these answers are essentially variations on a theme. The rise of the dragons and the return of the threat of the Others are probably linked in some way or other.

3. Is Dany the only female who tries to bring back dragons? As far as I remember, this is the case. At least she is the only female Targaryen to do so. We could include Quaithe and Melisandre as women who have an interest in the return of the dragons and who are doing something to bring it about. Those two, however, are more or less midwives. Is the (or at least a) "mother of dragons" necessary for rebirth?

We may be getting ahead of ourselves, but it's a very interesting discussion.

IMO, Dany was the right person, in the right place, at the right time, to birth the three dragons. The spell wouldn't work unless those three factors were present.

But, there was a further ingredient that was required to make the spell work, namely human sacrifice, of Mirri Maz Duur. In-universe, human sacrifice seems to release magical power, that can be used by someone with magical abilities, such as Melisandre or Moqorro. Although Dany has not been trained as a magician, I take it as a sign that she has some natural magical talent.

The fact that human sacrifice was required to bring the dragons to life indicates that what Dany did was at best morally ambiguous, at worst an evil act.

It's a tribute to how well-written the series is, that Dany remains a sympathetic and engaging character, despite doing things which, in the hands of a different writer, would mark her down as being unequivocally evil.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We may be getting ahead of ourselves, but it's a very interesting discussion.

IMO, Dany was the right person, in the right place, at the right time, to birth the three dragons. The spell wouldn't work unless those three factors were present.

But, there was a further ingredient that was required to make the spell work, namely human sacrifice, of Mirri Maz Duur. In-universe, human sacrifice seems to release magical power, that can be used by someone with magical abilities, such as Melisandre or Moqorro. Although Dany has not been trained as a magician, I take it as a sign that she has some natural magical talent.

The fact that human sacrifice was required to bring the dragons to life indicates that what Dany did was at best morally ambiguous, at worst an evil act.

It's a tribute to how well-written the series is, that Dany remains a sympathetic and engaging character, despite doing things which, in the hands of a different writer, would mark her down as being unequivocally evil.

Yeah maybe it was evil. If MMD had just tricked me like she tricked Dany and took my almost-born babies life all just to make my husband a vegetable. I would kill her too. Life and death is obviously not quite such a big deal in the Dothraki sea as it is in 2014. Nor are a lot of principles we live by. There were 12 people killed at her wedding and no one seemed to care at all. The way Dany did it was not in the same happy spirit as the screamers killing each other at her wedding. But IMO it is a kill or be killed world out there and MMD could have explained a little better what exactly would happen if tried to save Drogo. Plus she did not heal his wound properly (on puropse or not, we will never know). MMD was playing with fire and got burned.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Good call, especially since she associates herself with slaves later on. She is a more rugged, down-to-earth person compared to the Queen in silk, Cersei.

Good distinction, using Cersei. GRRM once said Cersei and Dany are meant to be compared in their arcs. The silk motive seems to be very bad thing for Dany in her arc as we will later see in ADWD she gets lost as a Queen in silk in Meereen where she should have been a Khaleesi.

Oooh I love this observation, it's something we'll have to keep an eye on as the chapters roll on. Dany finally feels free, at home with the Dothraki and free from Viserys' influence and she obviously loves it. But like you said, it's as if she's duty bound (now that Viserys obviously can't do it) to reclaim the Iron Throne. And I like your choice of words here, "duty bound", because I believe at this moment in time, free and happy for the first time in her life since the red door, she wouldn't really want to leave. I know the group dynamics will change later on (Mago, anyone?) but given the current set of circumstances, she wouldn't want to go to Westeros. So the thing to keep an eye on as we go on, is whether this feeling of "duty bound" persists or it becomes a true calling, something she really wants. It's fascinating, something we never stop to ponder.

I agree with this. A lot of posters make a misconception that Dany is "power-hungry" or that she is forcing herself to be Queen. The only reason she wants to return to westeros is because she feels its her duty as the last member of house Targaryen to seek vengeance for her family.

4. Finally, we hear from Doreah the Qarthian story regarding the origins of the dragons"

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

I think this is a clear hint from GRRM regarding one of Dany's purposes. She is clearly the second moon (Moon of my life) who will later "kiss the sun" (the pyre) and bring back the dragons.

I forgot to comment on this.

It is similar to the lightbringer story in the book at the night's watch.

Which said Nissa Nissa cried soo loud that the moon cracked when AA stabbed her.

[Parwan]

...

The fact that human sacrifice was required to bring the dragons to life indicates that what Dany did was at best morally ambiguous, at worst an evil act.

It's a tribute to how well-written the series is, that Dany remains a sympathetic and engaging character, despite doing things which, in the hands of a different writer, would mark her down as being unequivocally evil.

Yeah maybe it was evil. If MMD had just tricked me like she tricked Dany and took my almost-born babies life all just to make my husband a vegetable. I would kill her too. Life and death is obviously not quite such a big deal in the Dothraki sea as it is in 2014...

I'll put my thoughts about Dany and evil into a larger framework.

Something is fundamentally wrong--

That has been one of my main thoughts since the first page of the first prologue. Three guys ride into a horrible trap. They should have been prepared for the trap, but they weren't. This is because they are part of an organization that is falling apart. And it isn't the only thing that's falling apart. The entire ruling class is failing in a basic obligation--protect the realm, certainly protect it from existential threats. One such threat has been growing in the north for a long time. The powers that be (not just the high lords and members of the government, but also scholars and intellectuals) refuse to see this, and they make fun of those who try to sound a warning

These are not matters which are appropriate for extended discussion on this thread. I mention them here for context. We have started talking about general concepts like evil. I'll have a good many things to say on these topics, and most of them will relate to my basic thoughts about the screwed-up situation in Westeros.

In the beginning of the story, what is the alternative to the good-time-Charlie now sitting on the throne and neglecting the needs of his kingdom? It's a vicious, egotistical, weak, little creep whose main "accomplishment" so far in life is to have abused his younger sister. He is working with a fat Pentosi cheesemonger to acquire an army. This army will consist of barbarian warriors who can be expected to slaughter, burn, and rape their way across a wide swath of Westeros. After this, they will return the true king to power. That would have been a horrible plan in normal circumstances, and the circumstances are much worse than normal.

The vicious creep's sister is a sympathetic creature in her first few POVs. Early on, I believed she was going to do something powerful and important, something to do with dragons, but I wasn't sure exactly what. I would have been amazed if she had turned out to be a kind of Disney heroine. That would not have fit the rest of the story. I was not surprised to see her do some bad things. I more or less expected it. Which things are bad? How bad? What sort of judgements should we make about them? Those are questions for later discussion.

[SeanF]

I'll put my thoughts about Dany and evil into a larger framework.

Something is fundamentally wrong--

That has been one of my main thoughts since the first page of the first prologue. Three guys ride into a horrible trap. They should have been prepared for the trap, but they weren't. This is because they are part of an organization that is falling apart. And it isn't the only thing that's falling apart. The entire ruling class is failing in a basic obligation--protect the realm, certainly protect it from existential threats. One such threat has been growing in the north for a long time. The powers that be (not just the high lords and members of the government, but also scholars and intellectuals) refuse to see this, and they make fun of those who try to

sound a warning

These are not matters which are appropriate for extended discussion on this thread. I mention them here for context. We have started talking about general concepts like evil. I'll have a good many things to say on these topics, and most of them will relate to my basic thoughts about the screwed-up situation in Westeros.

In the beginning of the story, what is the alternative to the good-time-Charlie now sitting on the throne and neglecting the needs of his kingdom? It's a vicious, egotistical, weak, little creep whose main

"accomplishment" so far in life is to have abused his younger sister. He is working with a fat Pentosi cheesemonger to acquire an army. This army will consist of barbarian warriors who can be expected to slaughter, burn, and rape their way across a wide swath of Westeros. After this, they will return the true king to power. That would have been a horrible plan in normal circumstances, and the circumstances are much worse than normal.

The vicious creep's sister is a sympathetic creature in her first few POVs. Early on, I believed she was going to do something powerful and important, something to do with dragons, but I wasn't sure exactly what. I would have been amazed if she had turned out to be a kind of Disney heroine. That would not have fit the

rest of the story. I was not surprised to see her do some bad things. I more or less expected it. Which things are bad? How bad? What sort of judgements should we make about them? Those are questions for later discussion.

I can't think of any fantasy author who handles moral ambiguity as deftly as Martin. There are no Disney heroes or heroines in these works. But, he also avoids justifying atrocities, simply because his protagonists are perpetrating them. And he also avoids turning his protagonists into cynical and amoral criminals, who readers sympathise with only because their opponents are worse, and because they come out with some witty one-liners.

[Nictarion]

And he also avoids turning his protagonists into cynical and amoral criminals, who readers sympathise with only because their opponents are worse, and because they come out with some witty one-liners.

I agree, but its hard trying to argue this with certain posters, especially where Dany is concerned. I get tired of people implying this exactly the case with Dany and the slavers in Essos. I do not agree all her enemies are "one dimensional mustache twirling cartoon villains" as some claim, and this is done intentionally to make Dany sympathetic before pulling the rug out when she gets Westeros. I don't think GRRM would devote the amount of words and time on Dany's arc if that was the case.