Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[SeanF]

Maester of Ice and Fire,

After Martin completes the series, I'd love it if he gave us a short story dealing with Dany's back-story in the Free Cities.

[MoIaF]

Maester of Ice and Fire,

After Martin completes the series, I'd love it if he gave us a short story dealing with Dany's back-story in the Free Cities.

That would be fantstic.

Seeing how Dany reacts to each new city, how she deals with the different cultures / ways of life. It will also be interesting to see if Viserys abusive behavior has always been consistant or if it was a slow decline as the years went on.

[Maia]

It will also be interesting to see if Viserys abusive behavior has always been consistant or if it was a slow decline as the years went on.

I think that one of the future Dany's chapters chapters mentions that it was a slow decline, that the more disappointment and humiliation Viserys encountered, the more his relationship with Dany deteritoriated.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I'm not entirely sure what to make out of that golden collar with Valyrian glyphs. Just to add to the list, there is also Yohn Royce's bronze armor he wears in the tourney - which has First Man runes. Valyrian and First Man sorcery is not so different as it appears.

Thats true. Its just like Norse and Celtic history has records of runes being used for magical purposes.

On the flip side greeks, romans and egyptians believed in the usage of glyphs for magic and we know GRRM was inspired by Greek, Roman and Egyptian culture to make the Valyrians whiles Norse and Celtic culture inspired the first men culture.

Thanks Audrey!

You know, I didn't even think about that. I don't really know whether is was meant as a charm or not, but I do want to note that the slave girl helping Dany get ready for the party said that Khal Drogo's slaves wore gold collar. Then Dany is given a gold collar to wear, maybe signifying she was being sold to Khal Drogo.

Also one of Tyrion's chapters has a slave with a collar and their name is written on it in Valyrian glyphs.

[Parwan]

...

ETA: Also, didn't the Stark men participate in the sack of KL once they arrived?

This has been discussed at least a few times. A couple of years ago, I participated in a thread that debated the matter hotly. I'd say that a reasonable answer is, "Perhaps some of the northerners did this on an individual basis." Some readers have maintained that the Stark forces arrived after the sack was complete. I'm convinced that this is wrong. A plausible (but by no means proven) sequence of events would be: Ned brought his vanguard through a city gate before the sack was well underway. He marched them to the Red Keep to take control of the government. Some elements of the Stark forces may have been left behind in the city, or they may have been assigned positions there after the throne was secured. It's not impossible that they saw the Lannisters looting things and decided to take some of the profits for themselves. I doubt that such activity was widespread. If Lord Eddard had known of it, he would have punished the men.

The only reason why this is relevant here is that it relates to Dany's attitudes. That is a matter of later discussion.

[SeanF]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'd have thought it would be very difficult for any commander to prevent his men from participating in the Sack that the Lannisters were carrying out. Ser Jorah's recollection suggests that the Sack of King's Landing was complete chaos.

[MoIaF]

This has been discussed at least a few times. A couple of years ago, I participated in a thread that debated the matter hotly. I'd say that a reasonable answer is, "Perhaps some of the northerners did this on an individual basis." Some readers have maintained that the Stark forces arrived after the sack was complete. I'm convinced that this is wrong. A plausible (but by no means proven) sequence of events would be: Ned brought his vanguard through a city gate before the sack was well underway. He marched them to the Red Keep to take control of the government. Some elements of the Stark forces may have been left behind in the city, or they may have been assigned positions there after the throne was secured. It's not impossible that they saw the Lannisters looting things and decided to take some of the profits for themselves. I doubt that such activity was widespread. If Lord Eddard had known of it, he would have punished the men.

The only reason why this is relevant here is that it relates to Dany's attitudes. That is a matter of later discussion.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'd have thought it would be very difficult for any commander to prevent his men from participating in the Sack that the Lannisters were carrying out. Ser Jorah's recollection suggests that the Sack of King's Landing was complete chaos.

I don't think we’re derailing the thread too much, but let's focus it in how Viserys and most importantly Dany developed their attitude towards the Starks and the Baratheons. I know it's a matter of heated contention throughout the board Dany's statement of "usurper”, and although I personally don't believe Robert is a usurper I do understand the sentiment behind this accusation.

It isn’t just the taking of the crown but the added anger towards the almost extermination of their family. I have to agree with you Sean that there is really little Eddard could have done to stop his men once the sack got on its way. Of course if he had known of a particular individual doing something truly egregious he would have punish him but in the chaos I doubt if anything like that would have been able to be pointed out.

I think the issue stands whether or not the Starks participated in the sack of KL (and I get the impression from Jorah that to some extent they did) neither Viserys nor Dany would be able to tell the difference and to some extent their anger should be justified.

ETA: I shoudl say we should stay focus on the first chapter for the most part, and get too far ahead of ourselves.

[Parwan]

...

ETA: I shoudl say we should stay focus on the first chapter for the most part, and get too far ahead of ourselves.

Yes, that's the issue here. You and SeanF make some good points. They will be important when we start talking about Dany's attitudes toward things like treason, "dogs," and crimes of various sorts.

[Arya kiddin']

Ok, just giving my opinion here. Viserys had been transported out before the sack right? So would he even had had the correc information about the sack, as in would someone had really confided every single detail to an 8 year old? Viserys' education got ignored because all he had was Ser Willem, and he was ailing. That's why I think Viserys just hates everyone involved in the rebellion from the other side quite impartially and so does Dany. This justifies her clubbing both Lannisters and Starks into the same block. So basically, does it truly even matter if Starks men had any ahnd at all in the sack? As long as they fought on the opposite side, it is justified for Viserys to hate them.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Ok, just giving my opinion here. Viserys had been transported out before the sack right? So would he even had had the correc information about the sack, as in would someone had really confided every single detail to an 8 year old? Viserys' education got ignored because all he had was Ser Willem, and he was ailing. That's why I think Viserys just hates everyone involved in the rebellion from the other side quite impartially and so does Dany. This justifies her clubbing both Lannisters and Starks into the same block. So basically, does it truly even matter if Starks men had any ahnd at all in the sack? As long as they fought on the opposite side, it is justified for Viserys to hate them.

Yea Viserys is justified to hate them, since he didn't know his father was mad and had no one to tell him the truth of the matter. I think its possible Viserys heard bits and pieces of the info since they were on Dragonstone for awhile after the sack, gossip is bound to reach there.

[SeanF]

Yea Viserys is justified to hate them, since he didn't know his father was mad and had no one to tell him the truth of the matter. I think its possible Viserys heard bits and pieces of the info since they were on Dragonstone for awhile after the sack, gossip is bound to reach there.

He'd be sure to have heard an account of the Sack in the Free Cities, too. There must have been people from Essos who were eye-witnesses, and people from Kings Landing who travelled to the Free Cities in succeeding years.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

He'd be sure to have heard an account of the Sack in the Free Cities, too. There must have been people from Essos who were eye-witnesses, and people from Kings Landing who travelled to the Free Cities in succeeding years.

I agree people are also bound to migrate from city after switch of monarchs as in the case with KL and also Dany seemed to have had a wet nurse so she must have stayed with them for awhile, probably also had a role to play in Viserys' story.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Maester of Ice and Fire,

After Martin completes the series, I'd love it if he gave us a short story dealing with Dany's back-story in the Free Cities.

'like' :cheers:

I just started a new job, I will contribute as soon as i can read through all this :)

[Arya kiddin']

'like' :cheers:

I just started a new job, I will contribute as soon as i can read through all this :)

Haha. congrats Suzanna.

[housemanderly]

Yea Viserys is justified to hate them, since he didn't know his father was mad and had no one to tell him the truth of the matter. I think its possible Viserys heard bits and pieces of the info since they were on Dragonstone for awhile after the sack, gossip is bound to reach there.

Hi - new to the forums, hope I'm quoting this right...

I'm almost certain that Viserys would have heard at least some of what had happened, and will have at some point probably been told that his father was in fact mad. But given his pride and undying belief in "the dragon"'s superiority I'm pretty sure he dismissed those people as usurper-supporters and liars.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Hi - new to the forums, hope I'm quoting this right...

I'm almost certain that Viserys would have heard at least some of what had happened, and will have at some point probably been told that his father was in fact mad. But given his pride and undying belief in "the dragon"'s superiority I'm pretty sure he dismissed those people as usurper-supporters and liars.

Actually I dont think so.

Viserys was only 8 and from what we know his mother shielded him from the truth, as told by Barristan, so I doubt Viserys knew his father was mad.

And welcome :)

[MoIaF]

Hi - new to the forums, hope I'm quoting this right...

I'm almost certain that Viserys would have heard at least some of what had happened, and will have at some point probably been told that his father was in fact mad. But given his pride and undying belief in "the dragon"'s superiority I'm pretty sure he dismissed those people as usurper-supporters and liars.

Hello housemanderly!

Welcome to the board and welcome to the thread! As Queen A. mentioned above he probably didn't realize his father was mad growing up because his mother shielded him. However, I would not be surprised that as mentioned he heard rumors or stories growing up in the free cities and dismissed them as usurper lies. In turn, Dany probably never heard any of this and was fed information directly through Viserys. By the time she was old enough to be alert to the street chatter all talk of her father had probably died down.

[Annara Snow]

As you said in your analysis, Queen Alysanne, this chapter makes a very sharp contrast between Dany and Viserys, who is immediately portrayed as arrogant, delusional, incompetent, not too bright, and abusive. This can be partially explained by his bitterness over what has happened to his family, but Dany has a lot of reasons to be bitter, and still hasn't turned out like that. Viserys is truly his father's son.

Some other remarks after re-reading this chapter:

- Dany was born 9 months after her mother fled to Dragonstone; queen Rhaella left King's Landing shortly after Dany's conception. From the later books, we know that running away from the "Usurper" may not have been the only reason why Rhaella wanted to get away from her brother/husband. Dany has been mostly shielded from the harsh truths about her father - Barristan, who knows most on the subject of the people she's been in contact with, has hinted at some of it, but has shied away from telling her the ugly truth. In particular, I can't see him ever telling Dany that she was conceived through a brutal rape, which I imagine would be really hurtful to know.

- No matter how frightening a prospect of being sold as a bride to an adult stranger at age 13, the fate that Dany had believed was in store for her would have been much worse - being married to her abusive brother (and reliving the fate of her mother).

- Dany notes that Viserys never forgave her for "killing" her mother. I've seen people try to defend Viserys with the argument that this makes his attitude to Dany more understandable, but I don't have any sympathy for people who blame newborn babies for their mother's deaths in childbirth. And looking at the other characters whose mothers died birthing them and their families' attitudes, we see that this is not an attitude shared by all or most people; it says a lot that Viserys' attitude is shared by Tywin and Cersei's regarding Tyrion, but not by Jaime, nor by Catelyn regarding Edmure (and there is no account that Hoster Tully hated or abused his son either) nor (if you believe that R+L=J and Lyanna died of the consequences of childbirth, which I do believe) by Ned regarding Jon.

- Viserys' claims that the Targaryens always married their siblings in order to keep the bloodline pure and that "the dragon does not mate with lesser beasts" is an example of his idealized and exaggerated views of his family's history. I wonder if Viserys didn't really know much about this history, or if he just chose to ignore the facts that did not support the exaggerated views he chose to believe in. As a matter of fact, the Targaryens actually did "mate with the lesser beasts" quite often, and I'm not even talking about extra-marrital relations and many Targaryens bastards. We know that, in the two centuries of Targaryen rule over Westeros, there were marriages between the Targaryens and the Martells, Arryns, Hightowers, Velaryons, Baratheons (who were possibly, but not definitely the offspring of Aegon's bastard brother), presumably Starks (judging by Ned's statement that he has a claim on the IT, but a weaker one than Robert), possibly a few other (perhaps not so high) noble houses (since Aegon V and his two younger sons all married for love), and even a commoner (Jenny of Oldstones) who married Duncan the Small, Aegon's eldest son. Other than Aegon V and his sons, most of these marriages were probably made for political reasons; this was certainly the case with the three Martell-Targaryen marriages. I also think that the official reason - "keeping the bloodline pure" - was not the only (or even the main) reason for the incestuous Targaryen marriages; there are reasons to think that this was often done to unite various branches of the family and avoid strife over the throne and civil war, although, as we know, it did not always prevent that outcome.

What Viserys did not know is that the marriage between his parents was arranged not out of custom, but because of a specific prophecy that the Prince That Was Promised would be born out of that marriage. But while Viserys and Dany were born out of a brother/sister Targaryen marriage, their ancestors include an Arryn (Viserys I's firs wife and Rhaenyra's mother), a Martell (Daeron II's wife), and two other non-Targaryen women (the wives of Aegon V and Jaeherys II), at the very least.

I doubt that Viserys would have been so adamant about the idea of the purity of blood if he had been aware that he was to be married to a beautiful heiress of Dorne and receive Dorne's support in the claim for the IT. (Although, the Martells do have a Targaryen ancestor themselves, the first Daenerys.)

- Viserys comes off as a huge hypocrite when he wonders how Drogo can be attracted to such a young girl and comments that the "barbarians" have strange tastes; since we know from Illyrio's account in ADWD that a drunken Viserys wanted to rape Dany before her marriage to Drogo, at because he believed that Dany was "his" and that her maidenhead belonged to him. His attitude to Dany is sexualized - including his abuse of her (pinching her nipples), but at the same time he makes disparaging comments about her looks, criticizing her "skinny" figure, posture and the size of her breasts. I think that his desire for her may not have that much to do with attraction, but rather with his possessive and proprietary attitude to her. He sees her as chattel, practically as a slave; she is his to marry and fuck, or to sell to someone else would fuck her so Viserys can have an army, as he makes clear in that infamous statement about hypothetically letting 10000 men and their horses gang rape her. (GRRM is so good in making his unsympathetic characters utter rage-inducing lines.)

- When we first read this chapter, it seems as if the habit of marrying very young girls (for instance, aged 13) to adult men is something peculiar to Essos, and Viserys makes it seem as if only a "barbarian" would be attracted to and want to bed a girl of Dany's age. But later, we see that "she has had her blood, so she can be wed and bedded" is an attitude shared by at least some of the Westerosi lords, at least when it's not about their daughters and when they need to use girls of that age for their claims. There is officially no slavery in Pentos, but Illyrio clearly has slaves; Dany is not official a slave, but practically she is; but 12-year old Sansa is in no better position (and Tywin can get away with ordering his adult son to rape her to secure her claim), not to mention poor Jeyne Poole, 13-year old and standing in for 11-year old Arya. Generally, the position of a highborn Westerosi girl isn't much better than Dany's and doesn't allow her more freedom or choice - or isn't any better; the extent of her choice depends on the character and benevolence of her father or guardian.

- We get Dany's introductions to Jorah Mormont and Khal Drogo and the first descriptions of them. Dany probably does not have many opportunities to see knights from Westeros - she may not have seen one since her days in the house with the red door - so he captures her attention. The first description of him in this chapter is more favorable than those in the later chapters - while he's over 40 and balding, it's only mentioned that he's fit and strong. Later Dany chapters add the less favorable details about his appearance, noting his lack of good looks, hairiness etc.

a great grey bear of a man [Willem Darry]

Jorah's sigil is a bear, and this foreshadows him looking after Dany like Darry did

I've noticed that, too; it may be one of the reasons why Dany feels so secure in the presence of her "bear" Jorah, tends to trust him so much (until she learns about his spying) and misses him after she exiles him. Ser William Darry was the closest she ever had to a caring father figure. She also mentions that Darry was stern and not so kind with other people, but always kind to her. This also reminds me of Jorah, who is nice to Dany, but really not so nice to most other people, which we particularly see in Tyrion's chapters, which offer a very different and much less pleasant view of Jorah than the one from Dany's POV. But Dany herself noticed that Jorah distrusted and spoke against almost every man she ever came into contact with and relied on or allied with at any point. And, of course, Jorah's crime is that he sold people into slavery, and (at least until he ironically becomes a slave himself) he doesn't feel any remorse.

(If I can make a few observations about things that are more for discussion for later chapters: Like most men in Dany's life, with the exception of Barristan, Jorah is a morally ambiguous figure. Dany abhors rape, but Dany loved Drogo, who, like most Dothraki, saw rape as a normal part of the war and conquest. Dany hates slavery, but Dany trusted Jorah, who had no problems with selling people into slavery and advocating using a slave army. While I am not a fan of the Dany/Daario relationship, it could be argued that this relationship is much healthier by comparison, since Dany has no illusions about who Daario is and doesn't gloss over the problematic aspects of his character and behavior.)

- Dany's description of Drogo suggests that he's very tall, strong, and while his face is described by her as hard and cruel, he is handsome (she doesn't state that, but she thinks that the slave girls' description of him was true, and they had told her that he was tall and handsome), and not over 30. Interestingly, this is somewhat surprising to Dany, who expected him to be older. This is very different from 11-year old Sansa in AGOT, who thinks of 23-year old Beric Dondarrion as old. It may be because 1) Dany hasn't had opportunities to be around people her own age, and has spent most of her life interacting with older people, which gives her a different perspective, and 2) Dany is aware of the habit of young girls her age being sold to much older men; being around men like Illyrio must have taught her that.

3. You would think that someone as young as Dany would be receptive to that kind of false hope, but it seems like she never bought into it. You can contrast that with Sansa who at this point has dreams of knights in shining armor and who is only a couple of years apart from Dany.

I actually think there are many similarities between Sansa and Dany but what they “fantasize” about is so very different and of course is has a lot to do with the way they have both grown up. Sansa was to be a princess and a queen and go to balls and be at court and Dany fantasizes about finding a home and playing around, generally wishing she could be a kid again. One wants to be a grownup, the other a kid.

It's very common for pre-teens and teenagers to want to be older and do "adult" things. Sansa's fantasies are therefore more typical. Arya and Bran also want to do "adult" things, and Bran likes to think of himself as "almost a man grown" at the age of 7-9. Dany is an exception, because she was forced to grow up so quickly and didn't have a chance to enjoy her childhood for long.

2. I did not notice that, and I wonder if it means anything. We know that Dany's knowledge of Westeros is based on what Viserys has told her. She does mention the Wall though later on in the series.

Yes, Dany mentions at one point that Viserys felt incredibly proud of the Wall and what a tall building it was, as if he had built it himself.

A few more observations:

- Not only we first learn about the red priests and Lord of Light in this chapter; we also meet an Unsullied for the first time, although at this point we still don't know what exactly they are.

- Dany notes a bronze collar on one of the slaves; this marks the only difference between her position and theirs: her collar is golden.

- Illyrio doesn't even try to hide his attitude towards slavery, casually dismissing Jorah's crime and saying that "a man has the right to do what he wants with his chattel".

- One of Viserys' favorite catchphrases, other than "waking the dragon", is "The dragon remembers" - similar to "The North remembers".

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

<snip>

Great post :bowdown:

Just to add on what you said about Dany's childhood. I think what makes Dany a realist compared to most of the other teenagers at this point in the story is that, she has grown up thinking she was always going to marry Viserys, in other words she has a mindset of someone that has been bethrothed their entire life and also she is being abused by that person so she had to grow adapting to that situation.

Whiles Viserys has set his hopes high, she has set her hopes low and is not expecting anything, she has had to learnt to accept everything as it is and never expect anything big.

And I think this will play a role in how they each adapt to the harsh Dothraki society, Dany is used to accepting things she doesn't like and will take it as it is, whiles Viserys doesn't and always keeps trying to get what he wants.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Dany is depicted as having good observational powers- she picks up on small nuances of Illyrio's actions that Viserys misses. In the early chapters of aGoT, someone else was also portrayed as being a good observer.

Jon Snow