R+L=J v.76

[Ygrain]

:agree: He had to have had a DAMN good reason for not telling Catlyn, considering it was, like, the one bit of conflict in their absurdly happy arranged marriage.

:agree:

As I never tire of repeating, Ned's weird behaviour was what actuall set me on the track - this kind, truthful, loving father and husband was hurting both his son and his wife for years by his silence, for no good reason if he had fathered Jon on Ashara/Wylla/whoever.... unless he really couldn't tell, which, again, applied to none of the mentioned candidates, neither to Brandon or Benjen, but made one hell of a sense for Lyanna's child and promise me.

[Ygrain]

Since Ashara is being brought up, could someone refresh my memory on what Harwin tells Arya about it? IIRC, Harwin says there is no stain on Ned's honor because neither Ned or Ashara were promised at the time. However, does Harwin say whether there is (isn't) a stain on Ashara's honor?

Also thanks for the positive comments when I posted about Lyanna's connection with weirwoods few threads back. And please accept my apology for not expressing my gratitude sooner.

“I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

And no worries, most of us do have a RL :-)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

So I don't think she got pregnant during the tournament. She got pregnant during the rebellion. Since we know that Ned was in the Vale, Winterfell, Dorne, and the Riverlands during the rebellion

Not Dorne, no. Only after it's all over.

Ned -- who was smitten with her and about to be forced into a marriage he did not want.

Now was he?

Anyway if that happened before Cat's marriage, their child' be a bit older than Robb, due to the fighting at Stoney Sept ... and afterward he stayed a bit at Riverrun to see Catelyn had conceived a child. So Ashara's possible kid by Ned is not so close in age to Robb as is Jon.

edit: Cat's apostrophe

[Fred of Ashai]

Not Dorne, no. Only after it's all over.

Now was he?

Anyway if that happened before Cat's marriage, their child' be a bit older than Robb, due to the fighting at Stoney Sept ... and afterward he stayed a bit at Riverrun to see Catelyn had conceived a child. So Ashara's possible kid by Ned is not so close in age to Robb as is Jon.

edit: Cat's apostrophe

Catelyn knows where Ned was when Robb was conceived. She also has observed Jon and Robb interacting, so she must have an idea that they are close to the same age. And she thinks Ashara is Jon's mother, so she thinks Ashara and Ned were together shortly before or shortly after the Ned/Catelyn wedding. If Catelyn thinks that is possible, why shouldn't we think it's possible?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Catelyn knows where Ned was when Robb was conceived. She also has observed Jon and Robb interacting, so she must have an idea that they are close to the same age. And she thinks Ashara is Jon's mother, so she thinks Ashara and Ned were together shortly before or shortly after the Ned/Catelyn wedding. If Catelyn thinks that is possible, why shouldn't we think it's possible?

1 Because there'd be no reason for Ned not to mention Ashara as the mother.

2 Because Ned's schedule was just too busy at that time and Catelyn is not really in her mind when it comes to Jon.

[Fred of Ashai]

1 Because there'd be no reason for Ned not to mention Ashara as the mother.

2 Because Ned's schedule was just too busy at that time and Catelyn is not really in her mind when it comes to Jon.

1. But there is. If Ned knows that Ashara is in exile hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, he has to make sure Jon never blows the lid off this secret. Ned can't risk that, when Jon comes of age, he goes to Starfall asking questions best left unasked.

That is why Ned forbade the people of Winterfell ever to mention Ashara's name.

2. It's not just Catelyn. Ned's soldiers and Cersei also think it's possible.

[Ygrain]

1 Because there'd be no reason for Ned not to mention Ashara as the mother.

2 Because Ned's schedule was just too busy at that time and Catelyn is not really in her mind when it comes to Jon.

Besides, it's not like Catelyn had a detailed overview of Ned's and Ashara's whereabouts - those who do have some clues, notably refer only to two events: the tourney of Harrenhal, and Ned's visit to Starfall, neither of which fits with the timeline for Jon's conception/birth.

Another notable aspect is a complete lack of reference to Ashara in Ned's thoughts (the closest we get is how "everything was always for Brandon" which might, or might not, hint at Brandon being the one who dishonoured Ashara at HH). Other than that, not a single thought of the woman whom Ned dishonoured (totally out of character for him) and whose child he took away from her (again totally out of character). Catelyn is definitely not wrong in her assessment that Jon's mother must have meant a lot to him - yet, the only woman on Ned's mind is herself, and Lyanna.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

1. But there is. If Ned knows that Ashara is in exile hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, he has to make sure Jon never blows the lid off this secret. Ned can't risk that, when Jon comes of age, he goes to Starfall asking questions best left unasked.

So the suicide story is not enough for a cover-up? Hmm.

That is why Ned forbade the people of Winterfell ever to mention Ashara's name.

I strictly forbid the children to clean the house. ;)

2. It's not just Catelyn. Ned's soldiers and Cersei also think it's possible.

Hmm... Cersei as a source for a woman in her right mind ;? but you win the argument for Ned's men-at-arms.

[Fred of Ashai]

Besides, it's not like Catelyn had a detailed overview of Ned's and Ashara's whereabouts - those who do have some clues, notably refer only to two events: the tourney of Harrenhal, and Ned's visit to Starfall, neither of which fits with the timeline for Jon's conception/birth.

Another notable aspect is a complete lack of reference to Ashara in Ned's thoughts (the closest we get is how "everything was always for Brandon" which might, or might not, hint at Brandon being the one who dishonoured Ashara at HH). Other than that, not a single thought of the woman whom Ned dishonoured (totally out of character for him) and whose child he took away from her (again totally out of character). Catelyn is definitely not wrong in her assessment that Jon's mother must have meant a lot to him - yet, the only woman on Ned's mind is herself, and Lyanna.

Ned does think about Ashara when he forbids people in Winterfell from ever mentioning her name. And again when Cersei asks if Ashara is Jon's mother.

But Ned is a strange guy. He never thinks about his own mother, either. Stannis, Cersei, Jon, Catelyn, Bran, Tyrion, Oberyn, Kevan, Arya, Sansa, Dany, Quentyn, Theon..all think about or talk about their dead or absent mothers. But not Ned.

[Ygrain]

Hmm... Cersei as a source for a woman in her right mind ;? but you win the argument for Ned's men-at-arms.

Cersei has no idea how old Jon actually is. As for Ned's men-at-arms, note that Harwin's account of the castle gossip places the romance at HH, which is too soon, and the part which Catelyn hears concerns Ned's trip to Starfall, which is too late.

[Fred of Ashai]

Cersei has no idea how old Jon actually is. As for Ned's men-at-arms, note that Harwin's account of the castle gossip places the romance at HH, which is too soon, and the part which Catelyn hears concerns Ned's trip to Starfall, which is too late.

Cersei makes a point of saying she has seen Jon with her own eyes.

And Ned's soldiers think the romance started at Harrenhal. They definitely don't think it ended then, since they think Ned was with her 9 months before Jon was born.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Cersei makes a point of saying she has seen Jon with her own eyes.

Cersei makes a number of points. Most of them are outrageous.

Concerning Jon, she has seen him nearly 15 years after the matter in question. Call it a bang-witness.

And Ned's soldiers think the romance started at Harrenhal.

Now there's romance (flirty eye contact and a dance) ... and romance (making children).

Soldiers will possibly talk about the latter. At least in the books they do.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1. But there is. If Ned knows that Ashara is in exile hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, he has to make sure Jon never blows the lid off this secret. Ned can't risk that, when Jon comes of age, he goes to Starfall asking questions best left unasked.

That is why Ned forbade the people of Winterfell ever to mention Ashara's name.

As to why Ned would forbid his servants from speaking Ashara's name ever again, after learning that there are rumours going on at Winterfell that she is Jon's mother... It is in Ned's character not to want to dishonor anyone who wasn't involved in the situation. Allowing the rumours about Ashara to go around in Winterfell, while knowing that she has got nothing to do with Jon's existence, is completely against his character. He wouldn't want to dishonor Ashara's memory, and so, telling his servants not to speak about her ever again in regards to Jon's parentage, is completely into character, and does absolutely not suggest that Ashara is Jon's mother.

[Alia of the knife]

As to why Ned would forbid his servants from speaking Ashara's name ever again, after learning that there are rumours going on at Winterfell that she is Jon's mother... It is in Ned's character not to want to dishonor anyone who wasn't involved in the situation. Allowing the rumours about Ashara to go around in Winterfell, while knowing that she has got nothing to do with Jon's existence, is completely against his character. He wouldn't want to dishonor Ashara's memory, and so, telling his servants not to speak about her ever again in regards to Jon's parentage, is completely into character, and does absolutely not suggest that Ashara is Jon's mother.

Good point, that and he likely wants to cut off anymore information around Dorne, thus the TOJ.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

“I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

And no worries, most of us do have a RL :-)

Thanks! I am reaffirmed in my belief that it was Ashara and Brandon who hooked up at Harrenhal.

[Lyse Stark]

Good point, that and he likely wants to cut off anymore information around Dorne, thus the TOJ.

That also convinces me that Ned don't wants Jon's existence to come out, especially if the truth about what happened at the ToJ were to be prematurely revealed to Robert's ears. That would endanger Jon, as he, in the KG there's eyes is the rightful king.

[Lyse Stark]

Cersei makes a point of saying she has seen Jon with her own eyes.

And Ned's soldiers think the romance started at Harrenhal. They definitely don't think it ended then, since they think Ned was with her 9 months before Jon was born.

Cersei is a pathological liar, so you shouldn't trust anything that comes out of her mouth to be true.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

It doesn't matter that Cersei saw Jon, Ned claims he is his father, he does look like Ned. Her speculations as to Jon's mother are irrelevant, & wrong.

[Ygrain]

It doesn't matter that Cersei saw Jon, Ned claims he is his father, he does look like Ned. Her speculations as to Jon's mother are irrelevant, & wrong.

Besides, she saw a boy of 14-15. I doubt very much she kept tabs on how old Jon was when he was brought to Winterfell etc., hence her speculations are doubly irrelevant.

[The guy from the Vale]

As to why Ned would forbid his servants from speaking Ashara's name ever again, after learning that there are rumours going on at Winterfell that she is Jon's mother... It is in Ned's character not to want to dishonor anyone who wasn't involved in the situation. Allowing the rumours about Ashara to go around in Winterfell, while knowing that she has got nothing to do with Jon's existence, is completely against his character. He wouldn't want to dishonor Ashara's memory, and so, telling his servants not to speak about her ever again in regards to Jon's parentage, is completely into character, and does absolutely not suggest that Ashara is Jon's mother.

Not just that, but by talking about Ashara as the possible mother, people might find inconsistencies in Ned's story... and get an idea of who Jon really is, which is the one thing Ned fears the most. Better to forbid all speculation about Jon's mother, lest someone stumble over the right idea.