The guy from the Vale Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 And even if Varys did say so, there is nothing that would make it a credible claim. Yes, but we should know Varys' MO by now. When he can get away misleading people by telling them the truth in a slightly warped way so they come to the wrong conclusion eh will always prefer that to telling a lie. It's the omissions in Varys' statements that show us where to look for alternative explanations to his halftruths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horizon Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 And even if Varys did say so, there is nothing that would make it a credible claim. Lying to a dying man would be rather daft. Wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I know there was some friction between Rhaegar and the Martells in the past (the troops that needed to be forced to be loyal) No there was not. That is a common but bad misreading. The Martells had some anger, part of which was related to Elia's treatment (referring to Rhaegar making off with another woman, most likely). But no troops needing forcing to be loyal. They already were loyal, or at least there is no indication whatsoever that they were not. Aerys was just a graceless paranoid idiot and reminded their commander, Lewyn Martell, that he had Elia and her kids with him in the Red Keep, not because that reminder was needed for any reason, just because Aerys was a douchebag and worried that maybe they might change sides out of pure paranoia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Lying to a dying man would be rather daft. Wouldn't it? Doesn't matter. Because Blackfyre theory is sexier, the fact that Varys does not explictly confirm that the Aegon he is talking about is the same Aegon that Kevin is clearly thinking of means he cannot possibly be telling the truth or even talking about the same Aegon. Add in some extreme explanations about Varys not actually being in control of his little birds and lying for the benefit of someone and you have all bases covered. /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Lying to a dying man would be rather daft. Wouldn't it? “Thank you.” She felt absurdly proud for puzzling it out, but confused as well. “I’m not, though. Your daughter. Not truly. I mean, I pretend to be Alayne, but you know . . .” Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. “I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling.” “Even when we are alone?” “Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 No there was not. That is a common but bad misreading. The Martells had some anger, part of which was related to Elia's treatment (referring to Rhaegar making off with another woman, most likely). But no troops needing forcing to be loyal. They already were loyal, or at least there is no indication whatsoever that they were not. Aerys was just a graceless paranoid idiot and reminded their commander, Lewyn Martell, that he had Elia and her kids with him in the Red Keep, not because that reminder was needed for any reason, just because Aerys was a douchebag and worried that maybe they might change sides out of pure paranoia. Actually, the Dornish kept out of most of the war. There were small fights close to the Dornish border, and they most likely participated in that, but Doran did not send any troops to join the loyalists. I doubt he was asked to do so anyway, since the fighting took place mostly in the Stormlands in the first part of the war, where loyalists from the Reach were quick to respond, and in the Riverlands, where Riverlords and Lords from the Crownlands were quick to respond. Only for the Trident did Dorne send an army. They most likely would have done so anyway, but Aerys wanted to be certain, so he kept Elia and Aegon by his side, and reminded Lewyn Martell what could happen to them if Lewyn decided to join the rebels. The Dornish went to battle, suffered heavy losses, with Lewyn even dying, and still, Aerys was convinced the Dornish had betrayed him, and thus Elia and Aegon were not allowed to flee when Rhaella and Viserys were. For lives of Elia and Aegon (and Rhaenys, of course) Dorne would have fought for Aerys until the bitter end. Aerys, due to his paranoia indeed, thought he needed to force them into loyalty, which was his mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Lying to a dying man would be rather daft. Wouldn't it? Varys was not alone in the room, however, his little birds were present, too, and as Qyburn had taken over Varys structure of informers, odds are he was not going to let something this significant go public, no matter how slim the chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 “Thank you.” She felt absurdly proud for puzzling it out, but confused as well. “I’m not, though. Your daughter. Not truly. I mean, I pretend to be Alayne, but you know . . .”Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. “I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling.”“Even when we are alone?”“Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not." That raises the question: why would Varys tell Kevan anything at all? :) He could have just killed him and be done with it Varys was not alone in the room, however, his little birds were present, too, and as Qyburn had taken over Varys structure of informers, odds are he was not going to let something this significant go public, no matter how slim the chances. Varys' little birds are loyal to Varys, and they won't go talking to others (since they no longer can). Qyburn does have some of Varys' former informers, but those are the men who came to Varys to sell him secrets, the men who were paid. The little birds aren't paid for every secret they tell, they are in a steady employment, and I imagine that they get food and protection for their work from Varys. If Varys wanted word of Aegon to get to Qyburn, hoping that one of Qyburn's men was listening to his conversation was a rather foolish way to go. Better and more certain would have been to pay someone to go tell the tale to Qyburn, or send one of his little birds with an "intercepted" letter about Aegon's plans. There is some evidence that supports the possibility of him being fake. It all supports other variations as well.There is no evidence that points exclusively to him being fake. And this is the one!! :D :agree:There are hints that Aegon if not really Aegon Targaryen, there are also hints that he is. Entire threads are devoted to this (and they usually don't end kindly). There is no evidence pointing in 1 direction exclusively, and excluding all the others. The possibilities are still very much open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 That raises the question: why would Varys tell Kevan anything at all? :) He could have just killed him and be done with it Indeed: why tell at all? As I read it, Varys is gloating. He had to be quiet for decades, and now that his moment of glory is approaching, he has this unique chance to boast about his schemes and the downfall of his enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagos Unicorn Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 There is no evidence pointing in 1 direction exclusively, and excluding all the others. The possibilities are still very much open. THANK YOU LORD SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horizon Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Don't be so hard on us, this is all we have to work with for a long, long time. (Repeats mantra: GRRM is not my bitch, GRRM is not my bitch, GRRM is not my bitch....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Actually, the Dornish kept out of most of the war. There were small fights close to the Dornish border, and they most likely participated in that, but Doran did not send any troops to join the loyalists. I doubt he was asked to do so anyway, since the fighting took place mostly in the Stormlands in the first part of the war, where loyalists from the Reach were quick to respond, and in the Riverlands, where Riverlords and Lords from the Crownlands were quick to respond. Only for the Trident did Dorne send an army. They most likely would have done so anyway, but Aerys wanted to be certain, so he kept Elia and Aegon by his side, and reminded Lewyn Martell what could happen to them if Lewyn decided to join the rebels. The Dornish went to battle, suffered heavy losses, with Lewyn even dying, and still, Aerys was convinced the Dornish had betrayed him, and thus Elia and Aegon were not allowed to flee when Rhaella and Viserys were. For lives of Elia and Aegon (and Rhaenys, of course) Dorne would have fought for Aerys until the bitter end. Aerys, due to his paranoia indeed, thought he needed to force them into loyalty, which was his mistake. To be fair to Aerys on this particular one, Prince Rhaegar abandoning Elia of Dorne and running off with Lya Stark was hardly calculated to endear House Martell to House Targaryen. They did in the end fight at the Trident, but did Rhaegar die in single combat through bravado or because the Dornish let him ride into the ford alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herr witz Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 It doesn't add up entirely though..You could argue that Varys has acted to undermine Targaryen efforts throughout the years, why go through all the trouble just to seat Aegon on the Iron Throne? Agreed. I believe it was Stannis who said something to the effect of "the rot in Aerys' reign began with Varys". I think that is quite telling. He also convinced Aerys to open up the gates to Tywin, he never intended to truly support Dany's efforts to get on the throne AND he never intended to actually kill her per Robert's wishes, either. She was always a distraction, along with Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 To be fair to Aerys on this particular one, Prince Rhaegar abandoning Elia of Dorne and running off with Lya Stark was hardly calculated to endear House Martell to House Targaryen. They did in the end fight at the Trident, but did Rhaegar die in single combat through bravado or because the Dornish let him ride into the ford alone? It's true that Aerys had reasons to fear the loyalty of the Dornish a little. House Martell had no reason to love Rhaegar at that moment. But the Dornish were only 10.000 of the 40.000 men Rhaegar had with him :) So wondering if the Dornish allowed Rhaegar to ride forth alone might be a bit blaming it all on the Dornish.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Not necessarily "blaming" it all on the Dornish but they are hardly likely to have followed him with any enthusiasm and its not an unknown scenario in our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Varys' little birds are loyal to Varys, and they won't go talking to others (since they no longer can). Qyburn does have some of Varys' former informers, but those are the men who came to Varys to sell him secrets, the men who were paid. The little birds aren't paid for every secret they tell, they are in a steady employment, and I imagine that they get food and protection for their work from Varys. "No matter how slim the chance" - it is not exactly far-fetched to think that one of the children mutilated aplenty might nurse a grudge. How the certainty that the only informers are those you name? That is what Cersei thinks to herself when pondering the value of Qyburn as master of wisperers. I see no reason why Varys would not use the little birds to supply Qyburn with the information he wants him to have in writing via deaddrop. If Varys wanted word of Aegon to get to Qyburn, hoping that one of Qyburn's men was listening to his conversation was a rather foolish way to go. Better and more certain would have been to pay someone to go tell the tale to Qyburn, or send one of his little birds with an "intercepted" letter about Aegon's plans. Not sure where you are taking the bolded from, I certainly never argued that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 "No matter how slim the chance" - it is not exactly far-fetched to think that one of the children mutilated aplenty might nurse a grudge. How the certainty that the only informers are those you name? That is what Cersei thinks to herself when pondering the value of Qyburn as master of wisperers. I see no reason why Varys would not use the little birds to supply Qyburn with the information he wants him to have in writing via deaddrop. The children might certainly hold a grudge, but Varys is the unlikely one. They are not mutilated by him. GRRM has confirmed in an SSM that the birds are provided to Varys the way they are, meaning: without a tongue, but capable of writing. In the eyes of the children, Varys will sooner be the person who takes care of them, than the person who has gotten them mutilated. Varys names his birds as his sources, but also shows that he promises gold to those people with secrets worth selling. "The usual vermin" is what Cersei calls the people who flocked to Qyburn, when it became known that Qyburn was the new master of coin. And this "vermin" expects to be paid for the secrets they have to sell. It is most certainly possible that Varys keeps a few birds around to supply Qyburn with whatever he wants him to know. I never said that it wasn't possible. Not sure where you are taking the bolded from, I certainly never argued that. I was simply thinking further along, not responding to anything specific :) I was thinking about as to why Varys would have said what he said to Kevan, if he was lying (or, better said, if he was telling Kevan halftruths, making Kevan fill in the obvious, but wrong, conclusions). It wouldn't be for his little birds, so they could run to Qyburn. He could simply sent them to Qyburn, they weren't needed to be hearing the entire conversation. Had someone else been listening, I believe that alarm would have been raised the second Varys killed Pycelle. So that rules out any spies who might be in the market to sell their secrets (servants etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Indeed: why tell at all? As I read it, Varys is gloating. He had to be quiet for decades, and now that his moment of glory is approaching, he has this unique chance to boast about his schemes and the downfall of his enemies. Very much agreed. Looking closely at the conversation, it's much more a spiteful, bitter gloating than actual explaining of plans to a dying man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 It is most certainly possible that Varys keeps a few birds around to supply Qyburn with whatever he wants him to know. I never said that it wasn't possible. See, that is my entire point, suppose Varys had revealed Aegon's true identity to Kevan, there is a chance - no matter how slim or unlikely - that this information travels to those Varys does not want to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.